Liverpool FC Forum

by **The Specialist** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:33 am

What's funny is that people like the poster above will say things like they have, and think "They either have it or they don't. You can tell right away." But, then their actions beforehand contradict what they say. I'm sure this Stu person is someone who will agree with the tired line "Class is permanent. Form is temporary." Why on earth have you always defended Pennant, and slagged Gonzalez? Pennant has been pretty shi.te for the magority of his time here and has just started to show something. I've read your posts, and you always defended him on PAST performances of his when he showed practically nothing in Liverpool :censored:

. Guess what? Gonzalez tore up teams such as Real Madrid, and played at a high level for the most part of his loan period last season at Real Sociedad. How you can say he has no ability is laughable, if you had actually seen him play then. Imagine if none of us had seen Pennant play before his time at LFC, we would all be furious at Rafa for signing him and he quickly would have been labeled "a waste of space, with no hope of improving". So, maybe instead of judging him of what has been a really below-par season so far...maybe you should think twice before spouting off your nonsense and give him some time. Since for many people who have seen him play well, they think he will come good (Much like your stance on Pennant before he had 1 or 2 decent games)...

by **The Specialist** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:34 am

Whoops.

I meant Stu not you, Sabre, with the "poster above" line.

by **83-1165214211** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:52 am

Sabre wrote:
Why do we have to give the lad a season? I find statements like this laughable if i'm honest.

Because there have been houndreds of great players that have given his best from the second season, not the very first.

Not every player is Alonso or Gerrard. I think that Kewell for instance, didn't impress in his first season as he did in his former club, but he's been growing as a player after that -unlucky with injuries- though. We have a dribbling winger with Kewell, Gonzo has other features, and that's good for the team. 10 games might be enough to say that he has been dissapointing, but not enough to say he's won't ever be sucessful at this club.

Because the Liverpool staff know him well since his stage in Albacete, and they could hear all the praises that the pundits said in his spell in Real Sociedad. Because that amount of games have more weight than his first 10 matches in a new country and league. Because in 10 games any player can have a bad form. Best ones too.

Because one season is just not enough to say wether a player will be successful to the club, unless he's awful (Josemi). I can remember dozens of players who did shine in their first year and then fell into mediocrity.

I don't know if that's laughable, but I do know that most serious clubs -not chavski- do not make one year contracts unless the player is old, and I find difficult to find serious clubs that offload a player after the very first season in the club. Especially if he's young, international and is followed by several teams in Europe.

Sabre, if you actually cared to check your facts mate Kewell scored 10 goals in his first three months. The lad was brilliant in patches untill he got injured.

Good players always show ability. Ability stands out. Gonzalez has none. He's quite quick but he's not electric, he's just a very average player. He's an average dribbler, average touch, average passer, average intelligence and is poor physically. He also lacks confidence and alround quality. He will never make it at Liverpool.

by **83-1165214211** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:02 am

The Specialist wrote:What's funny is that people like the poster above will say things like they have, and think "They either have it or they don't. You can tell right away." But, then their actions beforehand contradict what they say. I'm sure this Stu person is someone who will agree with the tired line "Class is permanent. Form is temporary." Why on earth have you always defended Pennant, and slagged Gonzalez? Pennant has been pretty shi.te for the magority of his time here and has just started to show something. I've read your posts, and you always defended him on PAST performances of his when he showed practically nothing in Liverpool . Guess what? Gonzalez tore up teams such as Real Madrid, and played at a high level for the most part of his loan period last season at Real Sociedad. How you can say he has no ability is laughable, if you had actually seen him play then. Imagine if none of us had seen Pennant play before his time at LFC, we would all be furious at Rafa for signing him and he quickly would have been labeled "a waste of space, with no hope of improving". So, maybe instead of judging him of what has been a really below-par season so far...maybe you should think twice before spouting off your nonsense and give him some time. Since for many people who have seen him play well, they think he will come good (Much like your stance on Pennant before he had 1 or 2 decent games)...

Gonzalez was made out to be better than he was. He never tore up teams like Madrid at all. He simply played to his maximum and worked hard in a few games and scored a few goals. Don't tell me that because the lads moved teams he now all of sudden can't control a ball, can't pass, can't shoot, can't dribble because you're talking rubbish.

Pennant can cross, pass, control a ball, he's quick and has intelligence. He's got a touch and skill, he's only shown glimpses of what he can do but the fact is Pennant is playing poorly down to a lack of confidence, not a lack of ability. Gonzalez is playing poorly due to both. Pennant has shown it numurous times over the years that he has ability. From what I saw of Gonzalez i was never convinced and I have been proven right and will continue to be proven right.

Fact is, Gonzalez isn't good enough, never has been and never will be. Its all well and good you lot sitting there on the fence telling me i'm wrong because I can see it now, I don't need 40 games to judge a players ability. 2 or 3 tops and i can tell you weather someones a good player or not, Gonzalez isn't. End of. Against Bolton he was awful, yet every player on the pitch except him were superb, if he can't play well when the team plays like that he'll never perform.

Pennant has ability and will come good.
Gonzalez is an average player and won't. Simple as that.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:03 am

I admit I was wrong with Kewell's start but I don't admit that great players has started shining from moment one always. Perhaps the best players of this squad have, but not around the world and along history.

I also admit he's a poor dribbler. I don't think he has a bad touch when the ball is dead, he took well the corners last season, and several free kicks. He also put good crosses when the ball is dead.

While running he doesn't elevate the ball much if any, but very rarely a player that run with that pace does that.

I think that he got wrong quite many decissions this year, but I think it's just the initial pressure. Too much precipitation. Last year I saw him making very good runs when other team mates had the ball, and he knew positioning in the area to finish with a tap in or close shot. You have to be a clever player to do that good runs.

I'm not sure how fast is electric, but he's the fastest in the squad, if I'm not wrong.

We'll see, we'll see. If I'm wrong, I won't have troubles to admit it.

by **Rush Job** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:32 am

A few people have mentioned how little of the ball he got agaist Bolton, i was supprised to, ive seen the game a couple of times now and he didnt acturely do a lot wrong when on the ball mostly opting to let Riise bring it forward and i think that is the problem. I see a player with ability but with no confidence was not so much his possitioning just he didnt go looking for the ball and was happy to let Riise do the attacking down the left.
I have yet to see him up for it willing to take a gamble willing to try and impose him self on a game. Things will not improve untill he starts looking for the ball and geting the servise at the moment he must hate playing at Anfield ( all the grouns ) he looks scared to move, ultimatly its up to him to prove he can cut it at LFC but we as fans can only help with a bit of support.
So at the risk of making a vein pop in Stu head im in the bit more time camp, no confidence at all, is LFC to big for him?.......

by **aCe'** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:18 am

ah.... wat a craappy craappy player.... if he was playing for arsenal u'd all be agreeing on how crappy a player he is...
I havnt seen any of the so-called "videos" but imo...they dont mean nothing...check for cisse and morientes videos and ull know what i mean !

The guy lacks quality and i dont understand how some people still want him around for seasons to come...
Hes poor on the ball.. cant dribble..cant cross... cant pass... can run like a muthafuker tho !

I think its better if we loan him out to a Prem. club next season to see how it goes...maybe get him back the season after that...or whatever...

What a crppy craapppy player though !
Form has little to do with ability .... he lacks ability and thats why i dont rate him. AH... worrying about his confidence... he aint got skills and thats what should be worrying you ..
how much did we pay for him by the way ?!

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:43 am

Looking at him at the moment he doesnt appear to be the player he was hyped up to be, thats not to say he wont be. But usually you can tell from a players touch and skill he looks the the real deal even in his first few appearances. Unfortunately he looks, and dare I say it ......... a one trick pony.
He has time on his side to develope but I doubt he'll ever reach the heights of a top Premiership winger in the same vein as Giggs in his day, thats only my opinon and I'm probably wrong, well I hope so anyway.
A few people on here noted that he took La Liga be storm, but I'm sorry that does not mean in anyway shape or form he can cut it it the Prem. Yes he may of ripped Ream Madrid apart, but so did Lyon, does that automatically mean they'll top the Prem in England, I dont think so.

Like Pennant we've got to give them time to be able to properly say yay or nay on whether they'll make it at Liverpool. But what I have said TBH is my own personal observations on the lad so far.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:49 am

Sabre wrote:I admit I was wrong with Kewell's start but I don't admit that great players has started shining from moment one always. Perhaps the best players of this squad have, but not around the world and along history.

I also admit he's a poor dribbler. I don't think he has a bad touch when the ball is dead, he took well the corners last season, and several free kicks. He also put good crosses when the ball is dead.

While running he doesn't elevate the ball much if any, but very rarely a player that run with that pace does that.

I think that he got wrong quite many decissions this year, but I think it's just the initial pressure. Too much precipitation. Last year I saw him making very good runs when other team mates had the ball, and he knew positioning in the area to finish with a tap in or close shot. You have to be a clever player to do that good runs.

I'm not sure how fast is electric, but he's the fastest in the squad, if I'm not wrong.

We'll see, we'll see. If I'm wrong, I won't have troubles to admit it.

Ah Sabre this is where i was confused by you saying he had a good touch...you meant with a dead ball ?
I thought you were talking about his first touch when the ball is played into his feet...which is abysmal.

I am with Stu on this one i'm afraid. I havent seen anything at all to suggest that he has what it takes, and the qualities needed in a wide player, eg first touch, dribbling ability, crossing ability, awareness, so far all have been miles below par.
He didnt cost a ridiculous amount of money so i am happy to give him time, although i doubt it will make a difference.
At this moment though he shouldnt be anywhere near the first team.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:38 am

Xabi Alonso is slow, Xabi Alonso can't dribble, Xabi Alonso can't make it to the Premiere's pace. That's what some of you would say if Alonso didn't play at his best from moment one.

And now that we'll have fresh money, some fans will be asking lots of signing ups, the more expensive the better, only to ask to offload them soon enough.

Ace', "so called" videos? you doubt about them?

there are full reports of full games about players like Gonzalez and Fabio Aurelio (I think he'll be the next victim of the impatience) that speak well of that players. Your so called opinion is not very balanced. Of course that we'd hate him if he was an Arsenal player, what kind of arguement is that?. We'd also hate Alonso if he was an Arsenal player for that matter.

With the amount of foreigners in your league, I'm still surprised some of you talk about the premiere as it was some sort of NBA. Football is football everywhere. Alonso has the pace? no, yet he's class in the EPL. Luis Garcia is strong? no, yet he scores a lot of goals in the league. Too many prejudices.

A few people have mentioned how little of the ball he got agaist Bolton, i was supprised to, ive seen the game a couple of times now and he didnt acturely do a lot wrong when on the ball mostly opting to let Riise bring it forward and i think that is the problem. I see a player with ability but with no confidence was not so much his possitioning just he didnt go looking for the ball and was happy to let Riise do the attacking down the left.

I have yet to see him up for it willing to take a gamble willing to try and impose him self on a game. Things will not improve untill he starts looking for the ball and geting the servise at the moment he must hate playing at Anfield ( all the grouns ) he looks scared to move, ultimatly its up to him to prove he can cut it at LFC but we as fans can only help with a bit of support.
So at the risk of making a vein pop in Stu head im in the bit more time camp, no confidence at all, is LFC to big for him?.......

I think this mate explains well Gonzalez problems and he talks sense, as he sees the player's problems but he doesn't slash him after watching him a *few* games. It's about confidence. He didn't get much of the ball against Bolton, true, and that's because we charged the game on the right. Just as we did against Tottenham, and Aurelio didn't get much of the ball that day neither.

But hey, this is just my opinion.

BTW, I think the next victim of the sharpest criticism will be Fabio Aurelio :nod

by **mattylfc** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:38 am

Those saying that Gonzalez hasnt shown much promise and doesnt look like the exciting signing we all hoped for are completely right. MG's biggest fans would all probably agree that he hasnt had the best of starts.

Its no co-incidence however that there are a lot of posters on here, like my self, are willing give the guy a chance.

Not because of expectations, hype, or anything else other than the fact that as a Liverpool supporter and someone who trusts Rafas judgement as a manager i will always give players a chance to prove themseleves before i pass judgement. I do believe that it is too early to tell, not just because of his age but also because of the adaption he has had to make. Lets not also forget that Liverpool is a very big club and the expectations from fans are the highest it has been for a long time.

This coupled with the fact that Marks first season involved him playing in a team that was up and down and consisted of many top players under performing made his introduction even harder. Lets not also forget that he has had three different left backs playing behind him, none of which have reached top form so far this season.

Im not making excuses for the guy, i just think he deserves a bit of time to adapt and build some confidence. Just like every other Liverpool player, Mark needs backing from us, the supporters.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:00 am

Sabre wrote:Xabi Alonso is slow, Xabi Alonso can't dribble, Xabi Alonso can't make it to the Premiere's pace. That's what some of you would say if Alonso didn't play at his best from moment one.

And now that we'll have fresh money, some fans will be asking lots of signing ups, the more expensive the better, only to ask to offload them soon enough.

Ace', "so called" videos? you doubt about them? there are full reports of full games about players like Gonzalez and Fabio Aurelio (I think he'll be the next victim of the impatience) that speak well of that players. Your so called opinion is not very balanced. Of course that we'd hate him if he was an Arsenal player, what kind of arguement is that?. We'd also hate Alonso if he was an Arsenal player for that matter.

With the amount of foreigners in your league, I'm still surprised some of you talk about the premiere as it was some sort of NBA. Football is football everywhere. Alonso has the pace? no, yet he's class in the EPL. Luis Garcia is strong? no, yet he scores a lot of goals in the league. Too many prejudices.

A few people have mentioned how little of the ball he got agaist Bolton, i was supprised to, ive seen the game a couple of times now and he didnt acturely do a lot wrong when on the ball mostly opting to let Riise bring it forward and i think that is the problem. I see a player with ability but with no confidence was not so much his possitioning just he didnt go looking for the ball and was happy to let Riise do the attacking down the left.

I have yet to see him up for it willing to take a gamble willing to try and impose him self on a game. Things will not improve untill he starts looking for the ball and geting the servise at the moment he must hate playing at Anfield ( all the grouns ) he looks scared to move, ultimatly its up to him to prove he can cut it at LFC but we as fans can only help with a bit of support.
So at the risk of making a vein pop in Stu head im in the bit more time camp, no confidence at all, is LFC to big for him?.......

I think this mate explains well Gonzalez problems and he talks sense, as he sees the player's problems but he doesn't slash him after watching him a *few* games. It's about confidence. He didn't get much of the ball against Bolton, true, and that's because we charged the game on the right. Just as we did against Tottenham, and Aurelio didn't get much of the ball that day neither.

But hey, this is just my opinion.

BTW, I think the next victim of the sharpest criticism will be Fabio Aurelio

Hey Sabre it wasnt me who doubted the videos it was aCe'

by **Sabre** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:20 am

I know mate, that's why I started the line about the videos addressing him. Ace'....

About the touch of the ball you mentioned, I think it's not the best of his game, but his touch is not bat neither. You can't take decent corners nor free kicks without a certain amount of that ability. It's true he uses power in his shots rather than accuracy, but even to give strenghth to the ball you need some touch and balance if you do not want to send the ball to the clouds.

He's not the kind that put excellent crosses. Pennant will do that, GOnzalez will put them just in the box, and he'll use speed to beat his marker.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:24 am

BTW, I think the next victim of the sharpest criticism will be Fabio Aurelio

Sabre why do you say that ?

You said against Spurs he didnt get much of the ball and the same to with Gonzalez against Bolton. Why is that, surely not just because the whole team chose to use Pennant as an outlet ? As a player you have to go looking for the ball and demand it off your teamates if your not seeing enough of it. But for me Aurelio and Gonzalez are guilty of almost hiding during the game, to the point of anonymous. Another food for thought is the players themselves, do they think everytime the ball goes out left we'll loose possesion do the rest of the team have the confidence in them, because at the moment both players dont look as though they've got the confidence themselves, so what does that tell their teamates.

by **aCe'** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:31 am

Sabre wrote:Xabi Alonso is slow, Xabi Alonso can't dribble, Xabi Alonso can't make it to the Premiere's pace. That's what some of you would say if Alonso didn't play at his best from moment one.

And now that we'll have fresh money, some fans will be asking lots of signing ups, the more expensive the better, only to ask to offload them soon enough.

Ace', "so called" videos? you doubt about them? there are full reports of full games about players like Gonzalez and Fabio Aurelio (I think he'll be the next victim of the impatience) that speak well of that players. Your so called opinion is not very balanced. Of course that we'd hate him if he was an Arsenal player, what kind of arguement is that?. We'd also hate Alonso if he was an Arsenal player for that matter.

With the amount of foreigners in your league, I'm still surprised some of you talk about the premiere as it was some sort of NBA. Football is football everywhere. Alonso has the pace? no, yet he's class in the EPL. Luis Garcia is strong? no, yet he scores a lot of goals in the league. Too many prejudices.

A few people have mentioned how little of the ball he got agaist Bolton, i was supprised to, ive seen the game a couple of times now and he didnt acturely do a lot wrong when on the ball mostly opting to let Riise bring it forward and i think that is the problem. I see a player with ability but with no confidence was not so much his possitioning just he didnt go looking for the ball and was happy to let Riise do the attacking down the left.

I have yet to see him up for it willing to take a gamble willing to try and impose him self on a game. Things will not improve untill he starts looking for the ball and geting the servise at the moment he must hate playing at Anfield ( all the grouns ) he looks scared to move, ultimatly its up to him to prove he can cut it at LFC but we as fans can only help with a bit of support.
So at the risk of making a vein pop in Stu head im in the bit more time camp, no confidence at all, is LFC to big for him?.......

I think this mate explains well Gonzalez problems and he talks sense, as he sees the player's problems but he doesn't slash him after watching him a *few* games. It's about confidence. He didn't get much of the ball against Bolton, true, and that's because we charged the game on the right. Just as we did against Tottenham, and Aurelio didn't get much of the ball that day neither.

But hey, this is just my opinion.

BTW, I think the next victim of the sharpest criticism will be Fabio Aurelio

well you said it yourself sabre mate !
Aurelio has been awful so far this season... yet you dont see people running around saying wat a poor player he is !
Aurelio...as opposed to your beloved Gonzales seems to have quality.... his style not matching liverpools...or his form not being up to par... etc... does not make him a poor player !
His touch is pretty good and although his completed passes percentage is low-im sure- he seems to be a player capable of playing a good pass in !
Not so with gonzales....hence all the criticism !
I dont care if he played in spain or italy or whatever... hes not showing any football in his time in liverpool so far, and i really cant see him starting games for us anytime soon...
hes still young as all of you in here seem to go on about... and he ddnt cost us much by the look of it... thus id be tempted to give him some time .... a chance... to come good !

Personally cant see him becoming anywhere near as good as first team... but as i said.. we lack players in his position with kewell injured , so i guess we'll have to do with him till the end of this season !

And seriously.... whats with the Xabi Alonso argument ?!
gimme a break... you think ur arguing with 5 year olds ?!

I dont need to watch the videos or read the reports... i watch the games and can tell th quality from the performance ... he is poor in almost everything he does ! thats that !

aaaand... no i dont hate all arsenal players... even if i hate arsenal as a club.. doesnt mean i have to hate their players... that would be ManUtd ur talkin abt !

Liverpool FC Forum

Mark gonzalez...

Who is online