Liverpool FC Forum

by **Espionage** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:01 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Gerrard's skill as a central midfielder is completely irrelevant if the sum of all the parts of the midfield is higher with him being on the left.

This is how I see it:
Gerrard Alonso Sissoko Pennant
9 9 9 7 = 34

Aurilio Alonso Gerrard Pennant
7 9 10 7 = 33
(10 being the value that I place on Gerrard playing in the centre)

This is just sopossed to be a rough idea of the value of a player and what they bring to the team, its pretty unclear but hopefully it assists in communicating my point. Who gives a sh!t if we have the best central midfielder in the world? If the sum of the parts is higher without him playing there, then play him somewhere else. Also for a game like Chelsea you want to have players that have experience against them i guess so that could be another factor that led Rafa to play him there.

I'm sorry mate but doing all your maths on paper and giving players numbers has nothing to do with on field performances thats not irrelevant .

I know, just wanted to get the point across that I know that Gerrard plays better centrally but i think that th unit is better when he plays on the left.

ciggy wrote:Bigmick wrote.
Just about agree with every single word of that. I probably won't be quite as p!ssed off with Rafa as Lynds will (I can't quite get fired up like she can) but I'll be pretty annoyed anyhow

LOL Mick you wont want to hear me if it continues I'll probably get banned from the forum

Espionage wrote
Who gives a sh!t if we have the best central midfielder in the world?

Me I give a sh.it that a born and bred scouser has become the best midfielder in the world, they only come around once a decade, but sadly thats dissappearing.
I am very proud that Gerrards a red, I am very proud he plays for us.
I thought he was a bit of a Tw@t wanting to leave twice but I cannot dwell on that like some people are doing.
We dont have 30 million pound to spend on a player of his quality should he leave.
If he continues to be used like a spare part he wont be around next season I will put my house on it.

God I ballsed that up cant double quote after all these years

I guess at the end of the day I want the best for Liverpool, and I think that is what Stevie-G wants as well. I think that Gerrard likes the free role that he has been playing for us since last season, he has said it on various occasions. I think that people are reading too much into the "Gerrard doesnt like Rafa or being rotated" rumours.

by **mattylfc** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:36 am

I really do feel that our attacking play will improve. At present we have new players that are bedding in and we have existing players that are now having to adapt to different styles of play, involving the use of wingers on some occasions.

The nature of our attacking play generally depends on who we play in midfield IMO. I feel that as Rafa introduces the 'wingers' (pennant and gonzo) more, so to will he play Crouch more. Of late, Pennant and Gonzo have not been playing regularly and until they do, Crouch will be less affective as he will recieve less crosses from the wide areas.
With Alonso, Momo and Gerrard playing in midfield, our style of play is much more suited to Kuyt, Bellamy, Garcia etc where we try to pass through teams, create openings and utilise bellamys pace. Although the team may benefit from having Alonso, Momo and Gerrard all playing in the midfield, more often than not Gerrard and the left midfielder will be generally inclined to drift inside, making it compact in midfield and as a result give us less width. This is the main reason i think we have seen less of Crouch in recent weeks.

Rafa would perhaps like to play with wingers but he knows if he does this he has to drop momo or alonso to make way for Gerrard in CM or he has to play Gerrard out of position where he is maybe less affective. Also, as everyone knows, we are not use to playing with wingers, so this is something that we will take time to adapt to.

One player that is very important IMO with regards to attacking play in Garcia, the one player that is able to provide something different and help with link up play. Everyone knows Garcia can be hot and cold but he will always be causing problems in the right areas and has the potential to make something out of nothing. His attitude has been very good in recent weeks in terms of rotation and has made a positive impact when coming off the bench.

Obviously none of these points are new to anyone, just a quick summary as to how hard it must be for Rafa to find the right balance. On the positive side, we have lots of attacking options and in recent weeks we have shown that we are not struggling to create chances. A few weeks down the road and im sure we will be firing.

Also, to those who think we should drop alonso. Please have a knife and fork ready, in the next few weeks you will be eating your words.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:47 am

Gerrard wanting the best for Liverpool is the whole point in my view. We all do. Those who attack any dissenting voices forget that this is the point. "It's all very well with hindsight", "you go quiet when we're winning" etc etc. Precisely.

Had our rotations resulted in some fluency, some defensive solidity and the team functioning at anywhere near it's capacity then people wouldn't be moaning about it. Had we managed to gather more than one point from four away games people wouldn't be going on about rotation. Had steven Gerrard scored three goals and put in a couple of MOM performances from wide left, then he wouldn't be sulking. All spot on.

The reality is though that none of these things have come to pass. Maybe we've just been unlucky, decisions have gone agaisnt us, we've hit the post seven times? Maybe but I ask this question. Has there been one single tangible benefit sofar either to the team or to the player of Steven Gerrard playing out on the left? If there has, I've missed it. Question two. Are we currently playing better or worse, and do we have more points or less than we would have had if we had played a more settled team?

Maybe just maybe Styeven Gerrard wants the best for Liverpool too, and maybe he thinks that a little less rotation and him playing in somewhere near his best position would give the team chance of achieving that. If that's what he does think it is neither disloyal, selfish nor revolutionary. Many people would agree with him and I'm one of them.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:56 am

craig da Toxteth iron wrote:Alonso should be dropped cos when he first arrived at the club his passing was accurate enough to create problems for the opposition. This season his passing accuracy is poor. His poor passing doesn’t create problems for the opposition but instead he creates a problem for us.

yeah. just like his pinpoint pass through to finnan for kuyt's goal against newcastle. just like his pinpoint pass through to gerrard from which gerrard hit the post against everton. just like his pinpoint pass through to kuyt from which kuyt hit the bar against chelsea.

ok the guy's not been at his most consistent but don't post such drivel.

by **Espionage** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:56 pm

bigmick wrote:Question one: Has there been one single tangible benefit sofar either to the team or to the player of Steven Gerrard playing out on the left? If there has, I've missed it.
Question two: Are we currently playing better or worse, and do we have more points or less than we would have had if we had played a more settled team?

Q1: The benefit was that we played our strongest line up if you take Gerrard out of the picture. I think that the logical counter-question is was there any tangible limitation to the team or Gerrard playing out on the left? If there was, i must have missed it. He drifted infield the same as he did on the right, he beat Boulahrouz both left and right and didnt appear to be limited by being on a different side.

Q2: Hard to tell, I must say that I was a bit skeptical when Crouch missed all those games in a row, but then again if that form turned around then people would be complaing about hot Rafa is unsettling Bellamy but rotating Crouch too much. I would say that the difference would be no more then a few points, but both look about as good as each other on paper so I dont really blame Rafa for it.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:00 pm

If Rafa is going to persist with Bellamy then he and Kuyt deserve a long run - they have to play themselves into form otherwise they’ll be completely wasted. People forget that Benitez kept playing Crouch until he scored, and now the England striker can’t stop scoring (11 goals for England in this calendar year…bloody hell). I do have my reservations on playing both of them together - Liverpool would be better served by playing Kuyt or Bellamy off Crouch - but Benitez is obviously trying to forge a flexible team that can play a straight-out attacking 4-4-2 as well as the more defensive 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 (in which Crouch shines).

A rotation policy is not necessarily evil - when it works, it works great. But the problem is that it doesn’t always work out properly because their are too many variables that the coaching staff cannot always control (injuries, morale, form). And when players are not firing on all cylinders, the club starts losing games and everyone blames the manager for trying something new.

Heck, in some cases rotation is necessary - but the main problem for me is that Benitez, and as a result Liverpool, are not aggressive enough.

by **redmikey** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:10 pm

rafa knows that he has to get bellamy scoring ala crouch when everyone outside the club was doubting rafa he stood by his player like the fans did, when bellamy is scoring the pressure will be off him and will make it easier to accept the rotation,

rotation will stand us in good stead by the mad xmas period comes around and we will have got the cylinder firing before long as we have to many good playes for us not to and that is something that has changed under rafa

let the media and other fans have there fun now while we are not getting the rub of the green and not playing at 100% we are still 6 point of the lead,

i only see good things for this season backed up by better player and more experince for the manager, yes palyers need to settle, yes we need to elminate silly mistake, but we have a manager that knows this

by **Effes** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:41 pm

Espionage wrote:
Effes wrote:
Espionage wrote:but is it mad to put him there? I think not.

Well I think yes, as do many reds I talk to so I aint alone on that one.

Take shelter with the masses?

A manager can change very little in a game of football, but Rafa has the right to be happy with the fact that he set up a match-up in which Gerrard got the better of his opponent for the whole game. I think that we will see Gerrard continuing to play there on occasion with the current squad issues.

Are you suggesting that Rafa is mad?

"Take shelter with the masses?"

No, I voice my opinion they voice theirs.

Would Paisley have played Souness on the left?

Look, just cos Gerrard is brilliant we shouldn't ask too much of him.

It would be mad to play Ronaldhino in central midfield.

Rafa has his reasons, but I believe it was experimental and surely he wont do it again.

by **kalos** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:43 pm

I agree with CIGGY. If Gerrard is played on the left consistently he will not be here next season....unless we win the Premiership (fat chance if Rafa doesn't switch him to RM or CM pretty damn quick) and to be honest I feel if he is played on the left again over the next few weeks we will struggle to make the top four because we'll take a few more beatings.

He loves Liverpool FC but EVERY footballer wants to play to his strengths week in , week out. Imagine a concorde pilot being told he was going to have to fly a twin seater every week - because the boss felt it was necessary.

If you're not deriving any satisfaction from your own game when playing a particular way why the heck would you want to continue playing it...?

by **red37** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:51 pm

kalos wrote:If you're not deriving any satisfaction from your own game when playing a particular way why the heck would you want to continue playing it...?

simple, for the name you are allowed to represent on the field of play. Liverpool football club. its not 'sky one celebs' or 'championship manager' type stuff.

the real world thats full of real honest people who pay good wages to see their club achieve its aims. whoever the 'stars' are, this club will be around a lot longer than steve gerrard. as sublime a player as he is.... play to your strengths? well, we have been doing. where gerrard is pulled out of his 'favoured' position to operate on the left and do a job, is because the fella that is supposed to be doing it there - isnt.

it just happens to be that, like emlyn hughes or jamie carragher etc... Gerrard can do a multitude of good things in several key areas of a football pitch. he may well prefer to be played centrally or on the right of midfield where he feels he can do GREAT things but, because of the ineptitude of others he, naturally provides an option that compensates somewhat for that. whether its the solution, time will tell.

but to say he's being wasted is a bit extreme, more like a sacrifice the team could do without making, id say. particularly at the moment with poor performances all over the place. but it will click, eventually.

by **Espionage** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:46 am

Effes wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Effes wrote:
Espionage wrote:but is it mad to put him there? I think not.

Well I think yes, as do many reds I talk to so I aint alone on that one.

Take shelter with the masses?

A manager can change very little in a game of football, but Rafa has the right to be happy with the fact that he set up a match-up in which Gerrard got the better of his opponent for the whole game. I think that we will see Gerrard continuing to play there on occasion with the current squad issues.

Are you suggesting that Rafa is mad?

"Take shelter with the masses?"

No, I voice my opinion they voice theirs.

Would Paisley have played Souness on the left?

Look, just cos Gerrard is brilliant we shouldn't ask too much of him.

It would be mad to play Ronaldhino in central midfield.

Rafa has his reasons, but I believe it was experimental and surely he wont do it again.

I cant honestly answer that question because its a bit before my time.

I also believe that it was experimental but I say no reason why Rafa cant change it up a bit by putting Gerrard on the left occasionally if circumstances force it. We used to get Kewell and Gerrard swaping wings on occasion last year. If i remember correctly we did it to great effect in the FA cup semi final against Chelsea to great effect aswell.

I can see where you are coming from that you dont want Rafa to play him there. But at the end of the day I seriously doubt that Rafa saw anything in Gerrard's recent performances there that would lead him to rethink it as an option.

by **Effes** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:28 am

Espionage wrote:But at the end of the day I seriously doubt that Rafa saw anything in Gerrard's recent performances there that would lead him to rethink it as an option.

So he had a good game against Bolton?

I can't be ars.ed carrying this on.

If Rafa continues to play him on the left and we carry on getting naff results away from home then this season could go pear shaped in the League.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:26 am

Effes wrote:[I can't be ars.ed carrying this on.

I have some sympathy with Effes stance here I must admit. We have lost three out of four away from home, grabbed a point at Sheffield United and scored one goal in four games. At home, we have beaten Tottenham but only after they had the miss of the season and another clear opening spurned, we have beaten West Ham with them missing a sitter with minutes left and have deservedly beaten Newcastle.

Maybe the believers are right after all. Gerrard on the left and numerous rotations ia a good idea. Thank God for those changes, goodness knows where we would have been if we had just played everyone in their normal positions and kept a settled team, it could have been disaster.

Maybe it is all Gerrards fault after all. What has he got to sulk about anyway?

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:36 am

Espionage wrote:But at the end of the day I seriously doubt that Rafa saw anything in Gerrard's recent performances there that would lead him to rethink it as an option.

Its not an option though is it?
Its putting the shackles on our best player, the same as Sven trying to fit Lampard and Gerrard into midfield when it doesnt work.
Play Gerrard on the right or CM let him do the job he is best at bombing forward and scoring cracker goals drawing fouls in and around the area.
We havent had a captain IMO this season because the captain is p.issed off and I dont blame him.
Why not play Alonso or Sissoko out wide?
Why is Gerrard being asked to play in 3 positions this season?
Its doing Liverpool no good, the fans in the Gerrard camp hate it.
Play him where you can get the best out of him or dont play him atall.

by **Redman in wales** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:03 am

Ciggy wrote:
Espionage wrote:But at the end of the day I seriously doubt that Rafa saw anything in Gerrard's recent performances there that would lead him to rethink it as an option.

Its not an option though is it?
Its putting the shackles on our best player, the same as Sven trying to fit Lampard and Gerrard into midfield when it doesnt work.
Play Gerrard on the right or CM let him do the job he is best at bombing forward and scoring cracker goals drawing fouls in and around the area.
We havent had a captain IMO this season because the captain is p.issed off and I dont blame him.
Why not play Alonso or Sissoko out wide?
Why is Gerrard being asked to play in 3 positions this season?
Its doing Liverpool no good, the fans in the Gerrard camp hate it.
Play him where you can get the best out of him or dont play him atall.

hear hear.

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