Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:17 pm

redmikey wrote:some of the attacking play that we had this year has been top draw imo

gala at home was some of the best football i've seen us play in a long while

we have hit the post 7 time already this season which just shows the difference between sucess and failure at this level, good post st mike but i think we aren't far from clicking all the pieces together soon

as for people who just say rotation is sh!t well you weren't moaning last year, no last year you were moaning about strikers
and the year before that you were moaning about carra
and the year before that it was all GH fault
and on and on just feck off and support your local pub team where you can blame the wheather and a dodgy pint and where i don't have to listen to your ssn opinion

I'd agree with that, mate, which makes this thread a bit of a strange one for me. No one was complaining about our attack before the Bolton game. Indeed, we'd banged in 8 goals over 3 games just prior to the weekend so we can't be that blunt an instrument going forward (especially considering the chances we spurned against the Barcodes and Galatasaray in particular).

I mean, look at the types of goals we've scored this season:
(1) lovely finishes from pinpoint crosses (Crouch and Garcia vs Gala; Gonzales against Spurs; Crouch against MH; Gonzales against MH)
(2) clinical strikes following great through balls (Kuyt vs. Spurs; Kuyt vs. NUFU; Crouch vs. West Ham)
(3) long-range thunderbolts (Riise vs. Spurs; Alonso vs. NUFU; Agger vs. West Ham)

There's been plenty of creativity on display in these goals, and that's not mentioning the ridiculous number of times we've hit the woodwork this season. We are creating plenty of chances. We just need to be more clinical in finishing them, especially on the road.

It follows, from what I've just said, that I don't think we are significantly less creative on the road than we have been at Anfield. We have carved out some very nice chances on the road--especially in the first half of games--but are just not putting them away. Indeed, if we had taken the chances that fell to us at Everton, Chelsea and Bolton those games probably would have gone quite differently. Once the opposition get their noses in front, though, we get nervous, try to force things too much and run out of ideas before the end of the match.

This to me, is the more worrying problem: conceding silly first goals on the road (and, at home in the West Ham game) that allow opponents to pack the defense and concentrate on stifling us. As Saint points out, once we go behind we don't seem to have the composure and guile to claw our way back into the game (especially on the road). We had that last year and we need to get it back.

by **andypool2285** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:29 pm

gr8 post St michael right we have 2 great wingers in mark Gonzalez and j Pennant don't know how much rafa got to do with this but i havint seen any of them take a player on we all know the speed they both have and good balls they can put in last year reading the paper pennant had the best cross ratio then any other player haven't seen a good ball yet i know everyone going to get on my back but in a way have we settle for second best not geting Daniel alves i like pennant just want to see him attack players everyone knows a full back worst nightmare is a speedy winger running at you and the only player with 2 :censored:

is our right back. Think its a bit difference with mark he has got to settle in to the game but i rember Jon Otsemobor frist game and he ran up and down than taking on players and the kop love it he was trying and Anfield never knock a hard work y not just got for it wat you guys think

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:38 pm

andypool2285 wrote:gr8 post St michael right we have 2 great wingers in mark Gonzalez and j Pennant don't know how much rafa got to do with this but i havint seen any of them take a player on we all know the speed they both have and good balls they can put in last year reading the paper pennant had the best cross ratio then any other player haven't seen a good ball.

Pennant has the ability without question but he needs to do more imo. I think 4-5 goals from Pennant is fine so long as he also produces 10-12 assists. Robben is an excellent winger and yet scored 5 goals for chelsea and 3 assists last year. I don't know the figures for Duff but its probably not much more. From what I have seen of Pennant he crosses the ball more readily than Robben and more accurately too.

For me, both Pennant and Gonzalez's play isn't sufficiently well integrated at the moment. The ball goes out wide to one of them but then it seems as if everyone else runs off in different directions expecting Pennant or Gonzalez to do something magical with it.

That's why it's a bit of a mystery to me why some people put so much faith in the return of Kewell who only managed 3 goals in 41 appearances last year and who does not provide many quality crosses. If Gonzalez can get a run in the side he could make that position his own, but he too needs to put in more crosses and take on his man more.

But as Bad Bob said we need to get back to keeping clean sheets on the road and quick. We'll never score enough goals to win the league if we are conceding 2 goals every game.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:20 pm

stmichael wrote:
andypool2285 wrote:gr8 post St michael right we have 2 great wingers in mark Gonzalez and j Pennant don't know how much rafa got to do with this but i havint seen any of them take a player on we all know the speed they both have and good balls they can put in last year reading the paper pennant had the best cross ratio then any other player haven't seen a good ball.

Pennant has the ability without question but he needs to do more imo. I think 4-5 goals from Pennant is fine so long as he also produces 10-12 assists. Robben is an excellent winger and yet scored 5 goals for chelsea and 3 assists last year. I don't know the figures for Duff but its probably not much more. From what I have seen of Pennant he crosses the ball more readily than Robben and more accurately too.

That's why it's a bit of a mystery to me why some people put so much faith in the return of Kewell who only managed 3 goals in 41 appearances last year and who does not provide many quality crosses. If Gonzalez can get a run in the side he could make that position his own, but he too needs to put in more crosses and take on his man more.

But as Bad Bob said we need to get back to keeping clean sheets on the road and quick. We'll never score enough goals to win the league if we are conceding 2 goals every game.

The Pennant thing is a bit of a conundrum, IMO. He's played well enough to be selected but he's not set the world on fire. Crucially, however, Rafa seems to have more faith in Jermaine at the moment than he does in any of our potential LMs. Hence the conundrum: does Rafa stick Stevie at LM in order to play our--at the moment--strongest four in midfield (SG XA MS JP)? Or, does Pennant get sat down in favour of Stevie on the right and Rafa play a more natural LM down the left (MG/JAR/FA/LG)?

If it were up to me, Pennant would sit, Stevie would play on the right for the foreseeable and one of our potential LMs would get a run of games to see if they can find some form and claim the position in Kewell's absence. Has Mark Gonzales really been tested out there? No, IMO, so let's play him and see what he can do. Alternatively, we could play JAR there with Aurelio in behind. Riise has some significant limitations as a midfielder, IMO, but he always works hard, tracks back and presents a goal threat. With Aurelio overlapping down the left, that combo could do some damage.

I've defended Rafa's "chopping and changing" a lot this season and, elsewhere on the pitch, I endorse his approach. When it comes to handling the LM berth, however, I think he's made some mistakes. Stevie at LM is an experiment that's run its course as Pennant's not "undroppable" enough on the right to justify it. Get Stevie back to the position where he won PFA Player of the Year and start playing some of the lads who can stake a more long-term claim to the LM berth.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:31 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
stmichael wrote:
andypool2285 wrote:gr8 post St michael right we have 2 great wingers in mark Gonzalez and j Pennant don't know how much rafa got to do with this but i havint seen any of them take a player on we all know the speed they both have and good balls they can put in last year reading the paper pennant had the best cross ratio then any other player haven't seen a good ball.

Pennant has the ability without question but he needs to do more imo. I think 4-5 goals from Pennant is fine so long as he also produces 10-12 assists. Robben is an excellent winger and yet scored 5 goals for chelsea and 3 assists last year. I don't know the figures for Duff but its probably not much more. From what I have seen of Pennant he crosses the ball more readily than Robben and more accurately too.

That's why it's a bit of a mystery to me why some people put so much faith in the return of Kewell who only managed 3 goals in 41 appearances last year and who does not provide many quality crosses. If Gonzalez can get a run in the side he could make that position his own, but he too needs to put in more crosses and take on his man more.

But as Bad Bob said we need to get back to keeping clean sheets on the road and quick. We'll never score enough goals to win the league if we are conceding 2 goals every game.

The Pennant thing is a bit of a conundrum, IMO. He's played well enough to be selected but he's not set the world on fire. Crucially, however, Rafa seems to have more faith in Jermaine at the moment than he does in any of our potential LMs. Hence the conundrum: does Rafa stick Stevie at LM in order to play our--at the moment--strongest four in midfield (SG XA MS JP)? Or, does Pennant get sat down in favour of Stevie on the right and Rafa play a more natural LM down the left (MG/JAR/FA/LG)?

If it were up to me, Pennant would sit, Stevie would play on the right for the foreseeable and one of our potential LMs would get a run of games to see if they can find some form and claim the position in Kewell's absence. Has Mark Gonzales really been tested out there? No, IMO, so let's play him and see what he can do. Alternatively, we could play JAR there with Aurelio in behind. Riise has some significant limitations as a midfielder, IMO, but he always works hard, tracks back and presents a goal threat. With Aurelio overlapping down the left, that combo could do some damage.

I've defended Rafa's "chopping and changing" a lot this season and, elsewhere on the pitch, I endorse his approach. When it comes to handling the LM berth, however, I think he's made some mistakes. Stevie at LM is an experiment that's run its course as Pennant's not "undroppable" enough on the right to justify it. Get Stevie back to the position where he won PFA Player of the Year and start playing some of the lads who can stake a more long-term claim to the LM berth.

I agree with you.

Out of our first choice midfield at present which seems to be Gerrard-Momo-Alonso-Pennant as they played at Chelsea and Bolton, only Gerrard is likely to score.

Quite simply that is not enough. Pennant cannot play with Alonso and Sissoko. If we are playing those 2 we need Gerrard on the right and Garcia/Kewell/Gonzalez from the left.

The more I think about it the more I believe we need to open out a bit more against teams like Bolton and trade blows. That means leaving out Xabi or Momo and for me it would be Sissoko, as brilliant as he is.

I know it's controversial to even suggest dropping Sissoko because of his immense work rate but he contibutes nothing going forward and the best we've looked this year going forward was in the first half v Galatasaray when Alonso and Gerrard were the midfield 2. At least we looked like scoring which we didn't really do enough in the Bolton game.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:36 pm

Firstly, and much as I try to leave this debate alone I keep getting dragged back in like a punter on the sidelines in a pub brawl, I was moaning about rotation last season. I moaned incessantly for the first ten games or so of the season because I thought we rotated too much. As I've been the chief moaner about rotation this season, I feel it's only correct that I come back. I don't think the glory hunter thing holds water with me either. I'm not a scouser or an Anfield goer but I have seen and followed Liverpool over a period in excess of thirty years so while I don't claim to be Leon, Murph', Lynds or any of the other dyed in the wool supporters, I'm not a glory hunter either.

I believe we have rotated too much this season. It's not, with the greatest respect, "the new zonal marking" either. I was and am a staunch advocate of zonal marking, the problem with it is that a lot of people didn't understand it when we first used it, they do now and it's a good system. It is a system though that requires practice, confidence and familiarity with your defensive partners. like most defensive systems, infact all defensive systems, it doesn't improve any with frequent changes in personel.

Anyways back to the point of the topic and our attacking play, particularly away from home.It's true that we have been unlucky not to score more often but it's also true that our play lacks a bit of fluency. I don't however think there's that much wrong that can't be solved with a little confidence and zip that a couple of good results would bring. Provided we desist with the experiment which has made the PFA player of the year last season look mortal, and play our striker who looks most like scoring a goal at the moment my suspicion is that we will return to winning ways before too much longer.

It has to be said as well that our run of away fixtures must just about constitute the hardest start to a Premiership season in the history of the competition. It's not all doom and gloom but it's starting to get serious. Those who say we are playing well and have just been unlucky are deluding themselves. In reality we have been and are lucky to be still in touch, had Chelsea started this season like last we would be eleven points behind and the league would be over for us. As it is we are six points behind and though we are still in it just about, we have used up all our chances.

It really is time now, time for what? well I would say time to play players in their proper positions, to put out our strongest team for a sustained run without rotations and to rack up some points. Maybe it is time to hunt some glory after all.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:59 pm

bigmick wrote:Firstly, and much as I try to leave this debate alone I keep getting dragged back in like a punter on the sidelines in a pub brawl, I was moaning about rotation last season. I moaned incessantly for the first ten games or so of the season because I thought we rotated too much. As I've been the chief moaner about rotation this season, I feel it's only correct that I come back. I don't think the glory hunter thing holds water with me either. I'm not a scouser or an Anfield goer but I have seen and followed Liverpool over a period in excess of thirty years so while I don't claim to be Leon, Murph', Lynds or any of the other dyed in the wool supporters, I'm not a glory hunter either.

I believe we have rotated too much this season. It's not, with the greatest respect, "the new zonal marking" either. I was and am a staunch advocate of zonal marking, the problem with it is that a lot of people didn't understand it when we first used it, they do now and it's a good system. It is a system though that requires practice, confidence and familiarity with your defensive partners. like most defensive systems, infact all defensive systems, it doesn't improve any with frequent changes in personel.

Anyways back to the point of the topic and our attacking play, particularly away from home.It's true that we have been unlucky not to score more often but it's also true that our play lacks a bit of fluency. I don't however think there's that much wrong that can't be solved with a little confidence and zip that a couple of good results would bring. Provided we desist with the experiment which has made the PFA player of the year last season look mortal, and play our striker who looks most like scoring a goal at the moment my suspicion is that we will return to winning ways before too much longer.

It has to be said as well that our run of away fixtures must just about constitute the hardest start to a Premiership season in the history of the competition. It's not all doom and gloom but it's starting to get serious. Those who say we are playing well and have just been unlucky are deluding themselves. In reality we have been and are lucky to be still in touch, had Chelsea started this season like last we would be eleven points behind and the league would be over for us. As it is we are six points behind and though we are still in it just about, we have used up all our chances.

It really is time now, time for what? well I would say time to play players in their proper positions, to put out our strongest team for a sustained run without rotations and to rack up some points. Maybe it is time to hunt some glory after all.

I'm curious to pick your brain, Mick, on the LM position. What do you reckon Rafa's thinking is there? I mean, he's stuck Stevie there for two fairly challenging away fixtures and played Garcia there in other important matches. Does he not rate Gonzales? Do Riise or Aurelio simply not offer enough going forward? I struggle to understand his selections in that position.

Elsewhere I understand his rotations: Agger has emerged as a CB of sparkling potential, while Hyypia remains a rock solid defender. I'm not surprised, then, that Rafa has rotated them a bit (BTW, not surprised, in this case, does not mean the same as "not bothered" because I think that rotating defenders is a recipe for trouble). Up front I think Rafa likes the look of Kuyt and Bellamy as a strike partnership. Ironically, he isn't chopping and changing much up there in order, presumably, to give them time to forge an understanding. Nonetheless, Crouch has been in the form of his life so you might expect the gaffer to put the Kuyt/Bellamy pair on hold at the moment to play the big man.

These decisions I get but the LM decisions perpetually baffle me and I wonder how other people are reading that situation.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I'm curious to pick your brain, Mick, on the LM position. What do you reckon Rafa's thinking is there?

Bob you got me there mate, I ain't got a clue. Judging by the way he's been talking Pennant up for International football all week and the fact that he has played him in most games, maybe it's that he wants him to start almost come what may. Maybe he feels that Gerrard is such a good player that given time he will adapt. Maybe he feels Gonzales needs more time to realise his potential, or that Riise and Aurelio aren't up to it. I just don't know.

For my part, what I would do is start with "givens", the selections that I would consider certainties. Gerrard must play right-midfield, Alonso and Sissoko in the centre. I would only ever rest/rotate one of these three at any given time, and then only sparingly.

Who you play on the left is debateable. Who you don't play on the left is obvious in my view. Gerrard must play right mid or centre mid. If he's not going to play there then you may as well rest/rotate him.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:01 am

stmichael wrote:I personally think that we should play Garcia more while chances are at a bit of a premium as he makes things happen.

Bingo.

The lad has tremendous ability to unlock defences, but he doesn't seem to be playing as well this year, which is probably why we haven't seen as much of him.

My guess is Spain's WC campaign took a fair bit out of him emotionally. Once he gets his rythm back, he'll feature more and more, IMHO.

The trouble with playing Luis in his best position (behind the striker(s)), ofcourse, is we have to drop someone and change the system.
I'd go for this team away from home, which provides width, grit and defensive solidity, with attacking flair to rival anything in Europe:

Reina

JC Sami Agger

Xabi Sissoko
Gerrard Riise
Garcia

Crouch Kuyt.

I prefer 3-5-2 as a formation, as it brings out the best in Riise, as well as allowing a very attacking side to remain solid at the back.
Finnan hasn't been playing well recently, so this formation would probably resolve the uncertainty among thr back line aswell.

Whatever Rafa chooses to do, though, will obviously be with the benefit of seeing how the players react to different systems, etc.

But I have to say that with 6 regular goalscorers aswell as Agger "The wonder striker", that side would batter anyone.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:52 am

bigmick wrote:For my part, what I would do is start with "givens", the selections that I would consider certainties. Gerrard must play right-midfield, Alonso and Sissoko in the centre. I would only ever rest/rotate one of these three at any given time, and then only sparingly.

That's my feeling as well, Mick. These three should be nailed on in those positions and LM can be rotated as form/fitness/tactics dictate. I'm not one to join the Gerrard-watch worry brigade but I just don't see putting him on the left as anything short of unsettling to the lad. He's a bit of a mercurial figure who doesn't seem to be thoroughly enjoying his football at the moment. Playing him down the left, even sporadically, is not going to do anything but give him a complex long term, I fear.

by **crazyhorse** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:09 am

I agree. He is our best player and should be played in his best position to give him the confidence to play well and enjoy his football.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:19 am

Bad Bob wrote:
redmikey wrote:some of the attacking play that we had this year has been top draw imo

gala at home was some of the best football i've seen us play in a long while

we have hit the post 7 time already this season which just shows the difference between sucess and failure at this level, good post st mike but i think we aren't far from clicking all the pieces together soon

as for people who just say rotation is sh!t well you weren't moaning last year, no last year you were moaning about strikers
and the year before that you were moaning about carra
and the year before that it was all GH fault
and on and on just feck off and support your local pub team where you can blame the wheather and a dodgy pint and where i don't have to listen to your ssn opinion

I'd agree with that, mate, which makes this thread a bit of a strange one for me. No one was complaining about our attack before the Bolton game. Indeed, we'd banged in 8 goals over 3 games just prior to the weekend so we can't be that blunt an instrument going forward (especially considering the chances we spurned against the Barcodes and Galatasaray in particular).

I mean, look at the types of goals we've scored this season:
(1) lovely finishes from pinpoint crosses (Crouch and Garcia vs Gala; Gonzales against Spurs; Crouch against MH; Gonzales against MH)
(2) clinical strikes following great through balls (Kuyt vs. Spurs; Kuyt vs. NUFU; Crouch vs. West Ham)
(3) long-range thunderbolts (Riise vs. Spurs; Alonso vs. NUFU; Agger vs. West Ham)

There's been plenty of creativity on display in these goals, and that's not mentioning the ridiculous number of times we've hit the woodwork this season. We are creating plenty of chances. We just need to be more clinical in finishing them, especially on the road.

It follows, from what I've just said, that I don't think we are significantly less creative on the road than we have been at Anfield. We have carved out some very nice chances on the road--especially in the first half of games--but are just not putting them away. Indeed, if we had taken the chances that fell to us at Everton, Chelsea and Bolton those games probably would have gone quite differently. Once the opposition get their noses in front, though, we get nervous, try to force things too much and run out of ideas before the end of the match.

This to me, is the more worrying problem: conceding silly first goals on the road (and, at home in the West Ham game) that allow opponents to pack the defense and concentrate on stifling us. As Saint points out, once we go behind we don't seem to have the composure and guile to claw our way back into the game (especially on the road). We had that last year and we need to get it back.

I agree with both of these posts we've looked more fluent going forward and added dimensions to our attacking play. To say we've become predictable is wrong, last season we were more predicatable. Everyone on here was saying we need the wingers to provide us crosses, 'oh how Nando would thrive on decent crosses'. Athough our wingers havent yet hit the heights they've still provided us with crosses. Also with more forwards in the squad and there own individual abilities they each help build up our attacking play in different ways I cant see that being predictable. I like the fact too we're popping shots from outside the box, I'd encouarge Xabi to do it more, I think there is plenty of slick and fluent attacking football in the team at present.

What it is, is we are simply not clinical enough infront of goal at the moment. This might sound like a contradiction to what I just said about the strikers and all there movenment in build up play. But when the ball reaches the 18 yard box, usually either Kuyt or Bellamy arent in the box to get on the end of things as much as say a player like Robbie Fowler would be. They've worked and made space and have almost done a midfielders job, by the time the balls in the box their out of position and arent taken up the goalscoring opportunities as much as they should be.

by **Espionage** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:14 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
stmichael wrote:I personally think that we should play Garcia more while chances are at a bit of a premium as he makes things happen.

Bingo.

The lad has tremendous ability to unlock defences, but he doesn't seem to be playing as well this year, which is probably why we haven't seen as much of him.

My guess is Spain's WC campaign took a fair bit out of him emotionally. Once he gets his rythm back, he'll feature more and more, IMHO.

The trouble with playing Luis in his best position (behind the striker(s)), ofcourse, is we have to drop someone and change the system.
I'd go for this team away from home, which provides width, grit and defensive solidity, with attacking flair to rival anything in Europe:

Reina

JC Sami Agger

Xabi Sissoko
Gerrard Riise
Garcia

Crouch Kuyt.

I prefer 3-5-2 as a formation, as it brings out the best in Riise, as well as allowing a very attacking side to remain solid at the back.
Finnan hasn't been playing well recently, so this formation would probably resolve the uncertainty among thr back line aswell.

Whatever Rafa chooses to do, though, will obviously be with the benefit of seeing how the players react to different systems, etc.

But I have to say that with 6 regular goalscorers aswell as Agger "The wonder striker", that side would batter anyone.

The problem i have with 3-5-2 is that we dont really have any spots for Gonzalez Pennant and maybe Kewell as well. Its a system that Rafa will work on but only employ when we really need a goal and are just going to forget about defense. This can have mixed results: 3-3 in CL final or 1-4 vs. Chelsea last year in the Premiership.

I think if Rafa was going to go for this formation we would have seen it in the pres-season games, but i agree with you. This fixes our Gerrard/Alonso/Momo problem, gives a good chance for Garcia and provides spaces for 2 strikers. I just think that at the moment we dont need any more changes in formation atm.

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:27 am

Don't get me wrong, I think the team is playing some good football in the middle of the park, and I believe, varied attacking oportunities result.

Its the finishing. Its the usual story of a very low strike rate.

This is where guys like Kuyt will be an asset. He was on the pitch for his debut, and in a very short spell, rattled up several oportunities on goal. The sign of a hard worker, with creativity. Any salesman will tell you its a numbers game...get enough leads, and you make a sale. Kuyt has already created many more chances than Bellamy: result: Kuyt 2 bellamy 0

IMO Kuyt should start every game, baring injury or drop dead exhaustion.

On the LM position, Garcia must never play there unless it is at home against so called "lesser opposition" when both he and Gerrard can cause havoc drifting in from wide positions. Personally, I'd be inclined to use Riise more there, especially away from home, Gonzalez for home games.

by **craig da Toxteth iron** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:12 pm

There is nothing wrong in our game play. I would prefer play attacking rather than defensive play.

Going to Stamford Bridge, Highbury & going to the castle of Grayskull aka (Old Trafford. We were too defensively minded which cost us 2nd place or the league last season.

What will benefit us is that we have got Gonzales, Pennant & Bellamy who are attacking minded players. This is why we are hitting the wood work more often this season because we are creating a lot of chances. The attacking play should continue till the end of the season. Myself & every single Reds fan wants us to go to the Emirates, Old Trafford & out play them both in their own turf.

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