Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:22 pm

Scrolling back through some of the recent threads, it seems a number of people want to see us play a 3-5-2 more often next season. Something along the lines of*:

Reina

Carra Hyypia Agger

Finnan/Kromkamp Riise/Warnock
Alonso Sissoko
Gerrard

Fowler Crouch

(*I know we're linked with certain other players who would slot into this system but I thought it best to stick to current players for the moment)

The formation worked a treat at Newcastle and it seems like a great way to capitalize on the distinct strengths of Carra, Sami and Agger at the back--not to mention getting the most out of Momo, Xabi and Stevie in the middle. Plus, two forwards up top keeps things nice and positive going forward.

Obviously, the key positions become the wingbacks. We need players who can run the entire length of the touchlines--getting forward to provide width in support of the attack while also getting back to negate opposition wingers. It would seem that Riise, Warnock, Finnan and Kromkamp can do the job but are any of them particularly suited for this role? And, where would such a formation leave players like Gonzo (assuming he finally arrives), Kewell or Garcia?

Now, obviously this formation might not suit us week in, week out in the league. Given that, when are we more likely to use it next season and when are we likely to revert to 4-4-2?

Your thoughts...

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:37 pm

I agree with the formation although there will be a couple of new staff acquired in the summer so I can see the names changing....notably Gonzales, RW and Striker.

I believe Rafa will rotate the squad greatly next year. He is learning about all the teams in the Premiership and has a fantastic knowledge of european football so will tweek things quite a lot. Without upsetting the rythym of the team/squad too much of course!!

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:50 pm

Hi folks,

Just had a look back at the thread Stoney started about a week ago about formations for next season and realized that this one sounds similar... :blush:

In that thread, people made the fair comment that predicting next season's formation is nearly impossible without first seeing who leaves and who has been brought in.

In order to avoid rehashing the same discussion in this thread, let me clarify the question:

Leaving speculation about this summer's arrivals and departures to one side, for a moment, and thinking about the current squad...in what situations would it be good to play 3-5-2 and in what situations would 4-4-2 be preferable?

Could we, for instance, use it against Chelsea in the FA Cup or is it better suited for tricky away fixtures against mid-table (or below sides) a la Newcastle? (and why?)

I'm mostly curious about the tactical pros and cons of this formation for the English game...

by **darwisigila** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:44 am

first thing comes to my mind when mentioning 3-5-2 is instanbul. We played 3-5-2 after the break and the rest is history. i like to see rafa use that formation more often. Lets see if if its work in prem or not.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:51 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Leaving speculation about this summer's arrivals and departures to one side, for a moment, and thinking about the current squad...in what situations would it be good to play 3-5-2 and in what situations would 4-4-2 be preferable?

Could we, for instance, use it against Chelsea in the FA Cup or is it better suited for tricky away fixtures against mid-table (or below sides) a la Newcastle? (and why?)

I'm mostly curious about the tactical pros and cons of this formation for the English game...

Firstly I have to say I personally prefer 4-4-2, for what reason I couldnt really tell you TBH.
Every team I ever played for, was always set up in a 4-4-2 formation and watching Liverpool down the years they to have always played 4-4-2.
So in my case I suppose it's the change factor changing from one formation to another, its what you know type of thing.

Asking whether it would be good to use against certain teams is a matter of opinon. To me if you employ one system you stick by it, maybe like Rafa has done every now and again change it. But to change it often could cause a bit of confusion amongst the players, and I think the zonal marking Rafa has put in place is still enough for the players to think about.
I wouldnt use the system against a team like Chelsea especially as they play with two wide men up top. (Robben,SWP). Reason being they can cause such havock down the flanks that inevitably Finnan and Riise will probably be pushed back for three quarters of the match. Thus becoming a five man defence, leaving three in the midfield to match up against Chelsea's three. The game is won or lost in midfield and I think having the extra man in midfield i,e 'a four man midfield ' would help get a stranglehold on the game.
Obviously this would leave Finnan and Riise deeper to pick up the forward runs of there wingers, in the full back positions.

Maybe if we went a goal down against a team like Fulham you may be tempted to change the formation, whether it be put an extra body in midfield or an extra one upfront.
But I think what Rafa does now is perfect and tinkering with formations constantly isnt going to help us win the Premiership ultimately it could cause more damage than good.

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:30 pm

I'm not a fan of the 3-5-2 system, to be honest. Back in 1992 it was the Barcelona system, and it was very attacking formation, but vulnerable -- but when you have utter quality you can afford it.

Of course a 3-5-2 like the one you've described is on paper, reality can make it defensive or attacking. What I mean is that systems are "relative" you cannot say something is attacking or defending sometimes just looking the name of the formation.

But if you ask me, we have been pretty solid defensively with 2 centre backs, and I don't see why we should add another centre back to reinforce the back. Our midfield is defensively solid enough with men like Sissoko, Hamman, and Alonso, and 2 centre backs are more than enough. I also think we should not play an specific formation to face Chelsea, but do our stuff. On a last note, I think Gonzalez will be an important member of the squad next year.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:37 pm

Sabre wrote:I'm not a fan of the 3-5-2 system, to be honest. Back in 1992 it was the Barcelona system, and it was very attacking formation, but vulnerable -- but when you have utter quality you can afford it.

Of course a 3-5-2 like the one you've described is on paper, reality can make it defensive or attacking. What I mean is that systems are "relative" you cannot say something is attacking or defending sometimes just looking the name of the formation.

But if you ask me, we have been pretty solid defensively with 2 centre backs, and I don't see why we should add another centre back to reinforce the back. Our midfield is defensively solid enough with men like Sissoko, Hamman, and Alonso, and 2 centre backs are more than enough. I also think we should not play an specific formation to face Chelsea, but do our stuff. On a last note, I think Gonzalez will be an important member of the squad next year.

Cheers Sabre, mate...

It's nice to get a perspective on the formation from someone who watches "La Liga", since the presumption seems to be that this is a system that Rafa may have at least experimented with at Valencia. On that point, what's your sense about Rafa and this formation? Is it something you think he wants to switch to long-term (as some have suggested in other threads) or might he have something else in mind?

I think the point about the current effectiveness of our 4-4-2 in defense and midfield is a valid one. Why fix what isn't broken? Especially if players like Gonzalez do come in and do a job next season. With more options out wide and a some more clinical finishing up front, we don't necessarily need to monkey with formations.

Having said that, it's a nice thing to have in reserve to shake things up with. I can see us using it sparingly--to spring on a 'bogey' team that was preparing all week to deal with us in a 4-4-2 for example, or to change things up at half time if things weren't going our way.

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:47 pm

It's nice to get a perspective on the formation from someone who watches "La Liga", since the presumption seems to be that this is a system that Rafa may have at least experimented with at Valencia. On that point, what's your sense about Rafa and this formation? Is it something you think he wants to switch to long-term (as some have suggested in other threads) or might he have something else in mind?

I must be humble, I don't know Rafa that well. But I think he's a coach that makes the formation depending the men he has, he wouldn't make adapt the players to a system. I think in summer we can start to speculate well about which will be his system, when we know the squad for next year and we start to see summer games. Now it's too soon, at least for me

but if I had to bet, I wouldn't think we'd see 3 centre backs on a regular basis, although he has used them recently.

by **stmichael** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:47 pm

i've said it before. with the current players that we have, 3-5-2 is our best system to accommodate these players as we have no natural width or balance at the moment to play 4-4-2.

however long term 4-2-3-1 is the way rafa will go. 3-5-2 should merely be kept as an alternative as it was against newcastle earlier in the season. it's not a long term solution. tell me anyone who's ever won anything playing 3-5-2 (celtic don't count).

by **2520years** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:48 pm

I think the formation should suit the players available...and it's as simple as that. I like 4-4-2 and 3-5-2 and I don't think it really matters as long as the players are comfortable and the system makes the most of their skills. Take JAR for example, to me he's a wing back and would be best suited to 3-5-2 but Warnock is a full back, so 4-4-2 would suit him best.

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:51 pm

Barcelona - Sampdoria, 1992 final, Barcelona won with a 3-5-2 system.

I don't think Rafa used it regularly in Valencia though

by **woof woof !** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:17 pm

The wing backs in 3-5-2 formation are KEY players . Imo, Riise aside, I don't think we have (or are signing) players that can play that role effectively . It requires a player with a great "engine" coupled with outstanding offensive and defensive abilities .

Ashley Cole on the left and Gerrard on the right could make it work .

Without that kind of quality I'd stick to 442 .

by **whylongball?** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:44 am

woof woof ! wrote:The wing backs in 3-5-2 formation are KEY players . Imo, Riise aside, I don't think we have (or are signing) players that can play that role effectively . It requires a player with a great "engine" coupled with outstanding offensive and defensive abilities .

Ashley Cole on the left and Gerrard on the right could make it work . Without that kind of quality I'd stick to 442 .

quite right with the point of Ashley Cole and SG

However, though the formation has a lot higher risk of conceding, i think against lesser teams it's ok to use...frequency? i'd not use it so often

by **Scottbot** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:46 pm

stmichael wrote:tell me anyone who's ever won anything playing 3-5-2 (celtic don't count).

Didn't the Germans win three World-Cups playing 3-5-2?

I'm not a big fan but it's great to have it in the locker as change-up fro the occasional game or at half-time. Now that i read this thread I do wonder if Rafa might actually spring a surprise (barring our recent record in mind) and play 3 at the back (if Agger is fit) for the Semi-final this weekend.

The formation has a few obvoius plus points when you look at the players we have.

1- Riise/Warnock are more natural as Wing-backs rather than LB/LM. Finnan is very comfortable on the ball and can do the job also.

2- Hamman is disciplined and intelligent enough to sweep up in front of a back 3.

3- playing 3 in the centre of the park means Gerrard can roam without having to worry as much about his defensive duties.

4- Rafa is VERY big on tactics and patterns of play (have just read the Biography by Paco loret and this really hits home.) As a result of this the players are now versed in playing several systems. Take the Newcastle game the other day. Some call it a 3-5-2 but it wasn't. We only played one up front and at times it looked more like 6 across the midfield but it looked very fluid and the players clearly knew what they were doing.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:32 am

stmichael wrote:tell me anyone who's ever won anything playing 3-5-2 (celtic don't count).

Liverpool FC - Champions' League Final, 2005. :buttrock

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3-5-2 next season - What situation and how often?

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