The rafa situation

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby maguskwt » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:58 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
Sabre wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Ill tell you what even though this video is old from when he first came here an its in Spanish , you can certainly see how obssesd the boss is with tactics, an work rates an roles of players , its a facinating insight into the work he does to be honest,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28s8GwTSP44&feature=player_embedded

For those rafa bashers that watch this Spanish video, don't come saying he spends all day playing football manager instead of hugging Gerrard. IT IS NOT FOOTBAL MANGER 2005.  :D That's the amisco software that traps every game from 8 cameras in the stadium and then it tells you tons of info on your player. In the screen you could see the speed of the player and the distance between every player aswell.

Not wanting to sound like am being critical of Rafa for working hard on things like strategies and that. But i do think football these days can be a bit over analytical.

A simple game made more difficult imo.

But its great that he is doing all he can to try and get the best out of the players and the right tactics in place.

Is it all required though ?

When Filippo Brunelleschi first incorporated linear perspective in his art, did anyone else question "but Filippo, it's so troublesome, is it all required?"....   :)

Eh  ???

:;):
Image
maguskwt
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 8232
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:39 pm

Postby bigmick » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:25 pm

I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.
Last edited by bigmick on Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby Ben Patrick » Sat Sep 05, 2009 12:55 pm

bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Thats what i was sort of meaning.

All these pro zone stats and all that, some might think they are ingenius but i think if you take out a good player as they might not have run around as much in the last match and replace them with a fully fit but far inferior player you are going to be a worse side.

Seems obvious to me but there you go.
Sabre looks like a big lezzer
User avatar
Ben Patrick
 
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: Liverpool

Postby LFC2007 » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:02 pm

I think it's highly unlikely any (sane) manager would drop a player simply because the prozone stat's 'told' him that player wasn't doing enough running. They'll probably figure in the equation somewhere though.

Funnily enough on the same subject, I remember watching an interview with Wenger a while back in which he described how significant an aide these types of programmes are to his work. There were a couple of specific stat's (passing stat's of some sort) that would have a significant bearing on which team he picked. If a player fell below a certain threshold, they could well be out of the side, was essentially the point.
User avatar
LFC2007
 
Posts: 7706
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: London

Postby Sabre » Sat Sep 05, 2009 7:40 pm

Not wanting to sound like am being critical of Rafa for working hard on things like strategies and that. But i do think football these days can be a bit over analytical.

A simple game made more difficult imo.

But its great that he is doing all he can to try and get the best out of the players and the right tactics in place.

Is it all required though ?


It must be, it's not a software used only by Rafa but a lot of coaches, and it's a pretty expensive work of engineering. No one sells a expensive program if there are not buyers, and no company buys software they don't need, so I guess it's safe to assume it's a very useful tool.

If you want to put it this way, having data makes no harm, you don't have to be over analytical because you have the data. I think that any manager would use that once the system is installed in Anfield, unless he's a very traditional one.
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Postby tubby » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:50 pm

He he I must admit I did think at first he was playing Footy Manager. I wonder if Rafa is liking the new 3dmatch engine?  :laugh:

Then again this the developers at FM probably base their match engine on this amisco thing.
My new blog for my upcoming holiday.

http://kunstevie.wordpress.com/
User avatar
tubby
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 22442
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:05 pm

Postby bigmick » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:05 am

Look nobody is suggesting that all football clubs won't be looking at this software, of course they are. Evidence that Rafa does as well though is hardly proof of his absolute dedication to the job as was originally suggested, hence the somewhat flippant replies (certainly speaking for myself anyway). Similarly, evidence by either anecdote or video that we practice free kicks or patterns of play wouldn't convince me that we have stolen a march on our opposition. That's what teams do these days and in fairness they have for years, they try and give themselves a chance.

The point though about paralysis by analysis is a fair one I think. Yes it's very interesting when you see that Xabi Alonso actually runs further in a game than Dirk Kuyt, but it doesn't tell you that much really. Obviously people notice when a fella will sprint 50 yards to close down a goalkeeper and it's vital in terms of team play, but often a players movement is "unseen", and the stats machines pick up on it. How relevent it is though is another thing.

I like players who wrok in the right times in the right areas, players who "feel" the game and respond to it. I like Kuyt in this regard. When you are cruising, losing or not really clicking, sometimes you need a bloke to give it the old headless chicken to ramp up the tempo a bit. I like players who'll start a row, put a stupid tackle in, have a go at the ref, something to fire the crowd up a bit. Roy Keane was a master at that, feel the needs of the game and respond to it. I don't care if Darren Fletcher runs further and tackles more, we all know that when i t really needed doing, Keane did it.

I've no doubt for instance that these computers will say that Lucas has played well in his first four matches. On average he recieves the ball 79 times during the match, and he completes a successful pass 88% of the time or whatever the feck it is. That's all lovely jubbly of course, but most of them passes he could not have bothered with. He could just have walked the five yards in between him and the bloke he was passing to and left the ball with him.

As long as we believe our own eyes and keep sensible, then the programmes can help.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby Number 9 » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:12 am

bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Resist..Resist mick you know it makes sense!
Please god not the dreaded rotation..dont do it,you dont have to please oh god no oh please please dont! :D
Image
User avatar
Number 9
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 7601
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: South Belfast

Postby bigmick » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:20 am

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Resist..Resist mick you know it makes sense!
Please god not the dreaded rotation..dont do it,you dont have to please oh god no oh please please dont! :D

:laugh: Can't help meself Baz, it's like rotational Torrettes  :laugh:
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby Number 9 » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:22 am

bigmick wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Resist..Resist mick you know it makes sense!
Please god not the dreaded rotation..dont do it,you dont have to please oh god no oh please please dont! :D

:laugh: Can't help meself Baz, it's like rotational Torrettes  :laugh:

Its ok you are over it mate..you posted something after the initial threat NOT ABOUT ROTATION!!

Phew! :D
Image
User avatar
Number 9
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 7601
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: South Belfast

Postby heimdall » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:32 am

:idea
User avatar
heimdall
 
Posts: 4971
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:51 pm
Location: London

Postby heimdall » Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:35 am

Sabre wrote:
Not wanting to sound like am being critical of Rafa for working hard on things like strategies and that. But i do think football these days can be a bit over analytical.

A simple game made more difficult imo.

But its great that he is doing all he can to try and get the best out of the players and the right tactics in place.

Is it all required though ?


It must be, it's not a software used only by Rafa but a lot of coaches, and it's a pretty expensive work of engineering. No one sells a expensive program if there are not buyers, and no company buys software they don't need, so I guess it's safe to assume it's a very useful tool.

If you want to put it this way, having data makes no harm, you don't have to be over analytical because you have the data. I think that any manager would use that once the system is installed in Anfield, unless he's a very traditional one.

"no compnay buys software it doesn't need"

I take it you don't work in IT then.  :D  :wwww
User avatar
heimdall
 
Posts: 4971
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:51 pm
Location: London

Postby Lando_Griffin » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:59 am

bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Image
Image
Image

Rafa Benitez - An unfinished Legend.
User avatar
Lando_Griffin
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 10633
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:19 pm

Postby bigmick » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:05 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:I haven't watched the clip and I'm not familiar with the computer programme, but if it was instrumental in convincing rafa that making 75 changes to the team in the first 15 matches of a season was sensible with our squad I'd throw it in the bin if I was him. Perhaps he has because he doesn't do it anymore.

Image

Very good that, like an erse for a face, or erse about face, or talking out of your erse or something  :laugh: Excellent contribution.
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

Postby bigmick » Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:06 am

I shouldn't worry it'll just get deleted and nobody will know any different :;):
"se e in una bottigla ed e bianco, e latte".
User avatar
bigmick
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 12166
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: Wimbledon, London.

PreviousNext

Return to Liverpool FC - General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 115 guests