Liverpool FC Forum

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:07 pm

shabelle50 wrote:I dont know that much about companies etc. and the law but the loan H&G acquired to buy Liverpool must have been secured on their business assets in America/Canada. Therefore if the loan is now to be repaid in full surely that has to fall on H&G. If as ther reports seem to suggest the debt is to be written out of Liverpool's books why the need for the club to enter RBS's debt restructuring scheme? Surely the club can just to return to its normal accounting books which I understand before the H&G takeover was £30-£50 million? That would surely be manageable in the future. The issue is though if there is no £200 million debt at the club what happens to the stake in the club owned by H&G? Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this?

Completely wrong unfortunately.

H&G separate all their business dealings by setting up holding companies. All loans are secured against the assets of the holding company.

This is standard business practice and ensures any risk is not exposed to any other companies they own.

by **J*o*n*D*o*e** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 4:24 pm

Reg wrote:What are the fans going to do? Have I missed something? What are we going to do then we arent doing now?

there is a hell of alot that can be done, some people might not like it but it will involve direct action and if that means stopping the teams entering the stadium then thats what will happen.

we`ve held back in most part from taking the protests inside the stadium because people didnt want to effect what was going on on the pitch but there comes a time when you just have to do whatever it takes.

Brian Reade is 100% correct, if RBS renew the loans there will be hell to pay.

by **lakes10** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:22 pm

In and Out wrote:
lakes10 wrote:There will be an outcry by the rest of the UK if RBS take control og the club and heres why, the Gov have given RBS so much money to keep them going and the rest of the UK is paying for that, and it will be seen as a waste of money saving Liverpool fc, the gov has always stated they would never back a football team from going bust, but as they owne a big part of RBS it will bee seen as they are just doing that. i can not see how they would get away with this.

new loan yes
bank take over no.

Boll9x IMHO

RBS made some huge job cuts last week, its not going to go down well if they then take over a football club, that is why they dont have a problen giving a new loan.

it sucks.

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:51 pm

fivecups wrote:And Lakes -that makes no sense. If RBS state the 'owners' have defaulted on their interest payments, then RBS have the right to seize the property. In doing so they will make clear that they want it sold as quickly as possible to recoup the outstanding debts for the good of the bank. At this point, it will be very important that Liverpool supporters, via SOS, make it clear that they must sell the club ethically to people looking for long-term sustainable profit. Why would anyone complain about that?

Yep, Banks interest is not keeping it an asset, they won't gain anything if they keep Liverpool in their hands, they sell quickly

by **metalhead** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:09 pm

lakes10 wrote:RBS made some huge job cuts last week, its not going to go down well if they then take over a football club, that is why they dont have a problen giving a new loan.

it sucks.

Why risk themselves again by giving a loan when they also find themselves in a poor financial situation?

by **shabelle50** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:26 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
shabelle50 wrote:I dont know that much about companies etc. and the law but the loan H&G acquired to buy Liverpool must have been secured on their business assets in America/Canada. Therefore if the loan is now to be repaid in full surely that has to fall on H&G. If as ther reports seem to suggest the debt is to be written out of Liverpool's books why the need for the club to enter RBS's debt restructuring scheme? Surely the club can just to return to its normal accounting books which I understand before the H&G takeover was £30-£50 million? That would surely be manageable in the future. The issue is though if there is no £200 million debt at the club what happens to the stake in the club owned by H&G? Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this?

Completely wrong unfortunately.

H&G separate all their business dealings by setting up holding companies. All loans are secured against the assets of the holding company.

This is standard business practice and ensures any risk is not exposed to any other companies they own.

So how did the Glazers claim a few months ago that their assets in America were strong enough to secure the debts of £600 billion plus at Old Trafford>

by **mighty mo** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:29 pm

lakes10 wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:i cant believe nothing is happening with these two the refinancing is up next month

Nan there is talk of a big meeting next week, the board are meeting RBS and a bidder (did not know there was any left).

not sure if its all one big meeting or going to be split into two.

but i get the feeling that its going be worth a bet that nothing comes out of the meeting apart from a new deal on the loan.

do you ever learn

by **ethanr** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:45 pm

But why wouldn't they want to take over the club? They don't really care about LFC, they just want their money. I don't see why they wouldn't take over, say okay, we are owed 357million, so first person to offer us 450 for the club takes it. They could sell it for more than they are owed.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:59 pm

This should be the first thread any fan looks in for an update.... but I am ashamed to admit right now it only serves to depress so I avoid it like the plague ..... sometimes its good to just try and forget the ridiculous extremes and the sheer depths the owners have lowered us to and talk about football ....but sadly it all still comes down to this ....the realization that nobody has the financial strength to take on the clubs debts which at this point are reaching truly astronomical proportions
It seems churlish and somewhat naive of me to suggest their will eventually be a pragmatical solution to our dilemma, but this is the only hope we as fans can cling to...... October the 6th is fast approaching and for all concerned RBS owning Liverpool Football Club is not the solution we had envisaged happening nor was it what RBS had deemed the best course of action ........

by **The Raven** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:13 am

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:
Reg wrote:What are the fans going to do? Have I missed something? What are we going to do then we arent doing now?

there is a hell of alot that can be done, some people might not like it but it will involve direct action and if that means stopping the teams entering the stadium then thats what will happen.

we`ve held back in most part from taking the protests inside the stadium because people didnt want to effect what was going on on the pitch but there comes a time when you just have to do whatever it takes.

Brian Reade is 100% correct, if RBS renew the loans there will be hell to pay.

Dam right, ive already stopped traveling and going to matches, buying shirts ect.

If these rat :censored:

get another loan i see no other way than to :censored:

them up each week. Stopping team buses, would be a major statement. Can you imagine if the match was on sky.

Im up for it now, ive been a bit on the "lets not hinder the team" But if the worse comes to the worse then all bets are off.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 12:22 pm

LIVERPOOL will avoid a nine-point penalty if they fall under bank ownership next month.

The Premier League will approve an Anfield takeover by the Royal Bank of Scotland if co-owners Tom Hicks and George Gillet don't find a buyer or repay their debt by October 6.

The RBS has had power to seize the club before but there were concerns about league sanctions. Fans feared that if the Americans defaulted on their loans the club would be plunged into administration, leading to a nine-point deduction.

And that would almost certainly end their hopes of qualifying for the Champions League with devastating consequences for the club.

But clarification that a bank takeover is within Premier League rules is of huge significance. It means the league recognises the distinction between the owners' debts and the club's debt.

The Americans face catastrophic financial losses in the region of £300m if they miss the October deadline.

Hicks and Gillett still owe their 'acquisition debt' - currently £282.4m - which they used to buy Liverpool in 2007 as part of the company they created called Kop Football.

But that company exists independently from profit-making Liverpool Football Club and Athletics Grounds Limited, whose accounts are sent to the Premier League.

If the bank takes over, the owners' existing debts will be wiped out but they would lose the club without receiving a penny.

An RBS takeover will enable the bank to deal directly with buyers from next month and sell the club for a reasonable price.

The Kop is now braced for one of the most important months in its history.

Hicks and Gillett desperately want more time from the bank, but Managing Director Christian Purslow, Commercial Director Ian Ayre and Chairman Martin Broughton have urged RBS to refuse another stay of execution.

The bank, club and Premier League still hope a last-minute takeover will prevent the need for bank intervention.

RBS wanted the club sold by last Tuesday and imposed strict penalties on Hicks and Gillett to force a sale. A final charge of £7.5m was made on August 31, after earlier penalties of £5m on July 15 and £7.5m on August 15.

But there is no immediate incentive for buyers now the transfer window has shut and the refinance deadline looms.

A few months ago Hicks' boldly valued Liverpool 'between £600m-£800m', though sources close to the owners dispute any such valuation.

The owners tried to refinance in June using the club's assets but were blocked by the rest of the board. Securing new loans against their US assets is another avenue they're pursuing.

But if Hicks and Gillett are unable to raise funds, they're faced with a startling choice. They could accept a minimal profit if a bid materialises or lose the club for nothing.

But a source close to the sale process warned: "This is a little like one of those horror movies. Just when you think the monster has been killed in the final scene, he somehow gets back up again."

by **jacdaniel** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:38 pm

Hodgson told the LMA's magazine The Manager: 'The club is up for sale and nobody knows what direction it will take if and when new owners are found.

'A few years ago when the situation was far more stable, the money to buy new players was available.

'I hope the situation will change when the club is eventually sold and owners who are prepared to invest in the club come in.

'When that situation arises I'm pretty sure that it won't be difficult for us to start achieving things again but at the moment the task is really to hang on to the players we've got and make certain we don't have a situation where we have got a total rebuilding process.'

Hodgson insists however that Liverpool can achieve success and he will not attempt to dampen fans' expectations.

'The stature, traditions and ability of Liverpool to attract players certainly makes it an achievable task even though we are in strange times,' he said.

'You should never try and dampen people's enthusiasm and optimism. Furthermore every season we see teams not expected to win titles winning them. It doesn't always go to the favourite in any country.

'So we should never play down the Liverpool fans' incredible desire and passion to keep winning trophies - and the Barclays Premier League in particular - and keep their noses in front of Manchester United.'

I think he means level with the Mancs :laugh:

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:10 pm

Reg wrote:What are the fans going to do? Have I missed something? What are we going to do then we arent doing now?

Boycott everything to do with RBS and the club. I can also see demonstrations being held more frequently with the potential of them becoming more direct action. If push comes to shove, that sort of thing is inevitable, whether anyone agrees with it or not.

by **Octsky** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:41 am

LFC is one of the most supported club in the world with a rich history but it is still so difficult to find new owners.
This only underline the determination of the yanks in not selling the club without a few hundred million profits.
They rather see us go down in flames with them. they are a crime against the city and its people.
n i hope they burn in hell for that.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:49 pm

has anyone heard about hicks and gillett attempting to mortgage the club's assets in order to refinance the debt?...

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news....cc=4716

Liverpool's owners George Gillett and Tom Hicks attempted to refinance their loans this summer by mortgaging the club's remaining assets - the stadium, training ground, players and guaranteed TV revenues.

Tom Hicks and George Gillett are deeply unpopular figures at Anfield

There are fears the American owners might attempt another refinancing deal ahead of the October 6 deadline to repay £237 million owed to Royal Bank of Scotland, plus the £60 million of additional fees run up since April.

But the rest of Liverpool's five-man board would - once again - legally block any attempt to use the players or stadium as 'assets' to raise a mortgage to pay off existing debts. Any refinancing will be opposed by the board who can outvote Hicks and Gillett 3-2, but the Americans might issue a legal challenge.

At present, the £40 million annual interest repayments come directly from club profits but ESPNsoccernet has learned that the debts are not loaded against the stadium and players.

When Hicks and Gillett tried to find a new £290 million 'mortgage' using the stadium and players as assets a few months ago, the board threw out the proposal and took legal advice to ensure that they were within their rights to do so.

With the October 6 bank deadline rapidly approaching, Hicks and Gillett stand to lose their stranglehold on Liverpool if RBS chooses to take over the club and hand it over to their asset recovery experts to sell as a distressed asset.

An RBS effective takeover of the club from the October 6 deadline would meet with Premier League approval. Liverpool have also informed the Premier League and UEFA that they have set aside financial measures to ensure that they can continue to pay the £8 million-a-month wage bill and fulfil their fixtures this season.

When asked if the club could still afford their substantial wage bill, a spokesman said: "Liverpool FC has prudent working capital facilities that allow the club to make proper provision for outgoings as and when they arise. These working capital facilities are totally satisfactory to both the Premier League and UEFA."

The annual wage bill in the 2008-09 accounts was £90.8 million and this year the figure will be around the same, but for the first time Liverpool have dipped into the red.

When asked whether the crippling £40 million interest repayments which wipe out all operating profits are paid monthly, putting a strain on the club's cash flow, the response was that, as such detail is not a matter of public record, the club have declined to answer.

However there are fears that the club is heading for financial meltdown unless a new owner can be found, and so far there are no "credible" bidders. There has been nothing from a mystery bid involving Keith Harris, let alone the Kenny Huang bid that also failed to materialise.

City experts are now estimating that Liverpool's price tag in an RBS fire sale could be as little as £150 million, far short of the original expectations of Hicks and Gillett, who demanded £800 million and then dropped their asking price to £600 million.

Talk of a takeover before the transfer window proved to be a disappointing false dawn, and City financiers believe the value of the club will now plummet.

Liverpool suspect that potential new owners are waiting to grab the club for a knock-down price when RBS faces the prospect of selling the club itself from the October 6 deadline, when the bank's £237 million loan has to be repaid.

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