Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:29 pm

I suspect you could buy LFC at close to 'cost' today and there still seems to be no one stepping up so to me, its not a price issue, its an international funding/finance issue.

How many general business takeovers have been reported in the press during the last 12 months?

by **devaney** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:14 am

Ciggy wrote:
The Good Yank wrote:
bavlondon wrote:I think it came out a few months ago that it was over 400 now... not sure of the exact figure

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought those figures were based on the end of 08-09. Before the refinancing last summer H&G needed to put up 60million each and therefore the debt was paid down to the 250ish mark.

They actually lent us that 120 million from an off shore account in the Cayman Islands and we are paying them back at a 10% interest rate. So they have actually put zero in.

How can that arrangement possibly satisfy the demands of RBS who insisted that the indebtedness of Liverpool FC had to be reduced. If these two somewhat dishonourable greed merchants have actually managed to pull off this stunt then surely there will be a major problem when the financing needs renegotiating if the club has not been sold by then.

Is this Cayman Island loan fact or just another rumour.Where did the information come from? I accept that the figures make some sense.

by **Igor Zidane** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:51 am

devaney wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
The Good Yank wrote:
bavlondon wrote:I think it came out a few months ago that it was over 400 now... not sure of the exact figure

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought those figures were based on the end of 08-09. Before the refinancing last summer H&G needed to put up 60million each and therefore the debt was paid down to the 250ish mark.

They actually lent us that 120 million from an off shore account in the Cayman Islands and we are paying them back at a 10% interest rate. So they have actually put zero in.

How can that arrangement possibly satisfy the demands of RBS who insisted that the indebtedness of Liverpool FC had to be reduced. If these two somewhat dishonourable greed merchants have actually managed to pull off this stunt then surely there will be a major problem when the financing needs renegotiating if the club has not been sold by then.

Is this Cayman Island loan fact or just another rumour.Where did the information come from? I accept that the figures make some sense.

Devaney , this is the structure of the comapny that owns us

It is Kop(football) holdings that holds the Yanks shares in the club and is the company that has provided the RBS with bank guarantees and collateral.

This is how the ownership is worked out

Kop Investment LLC - headquartered in Dallas, but registered in Delaware for tax reasons, this is the ultimate holding company and is jointly owned by George Gillett and Tom Hicks

owns

Kop Football (Cayman) Ltd - about which little is known, other than that it has loaned money its subsidiaries: this may be equity from G&H

owns

Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd (6032200)(KFHL) - is the UK parent company and has filed consolidated accounts derived from its two subsidiaries

owns

Kop Football Ltd (6032198)(KFL) - would appear to be the company that was used for the actual purchase of LFC and is effectively a only a holding company which does not otherwise trade.

owns

Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd (35668)(LFC) - is what we would think of as "Liverpool FC": this is the original company sold by David Moores to G&H and which is now owned by them through a series of holding companies as above.

Ok

Now in the last set of accounts released ,you will see that a loan was made of £144 million from Kop cayman to Kop football ltd . The interest we pay on this is over 10% . This is the loan that we as a club are paying of at the minute . It's costing us £110,000 er day . That's the wages of seven world class players per week . It's all in the accounts mate and it's all in black and white as F.A.C.T .

by **Ciggy** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:53 am

devaney wrote:How can that arrangement possibly satisfy the demands of RBS who insisted that the indebtedness of Liverpool FC had to be reduced. If these two somewhat dishonourable greed merchants have actually managed to pull off this stunt then surely there will be a major problem when the financing needs renegotiating if the club has not been sold by then.

Is this Cayman Island loan fact or just another rumour.Where did the information come from? I accept that the figures make some sense.

From the current set of accounts remember this is from 2009, 2010 will look much worse.

Debt 2007: 44m
Debt 2008: 350m
Debt 2009: 472.5m(237.410m owed to RBS)
Debt 2010: ?

Interest payment per day: 110.000
week: 770.000
month: 335.000
year: 40.1m

£144.5m debt to Kop Cayman attracts 10% fixed interest rate.
Approx £14.5m per year or just under £40,000 per day add that to the 110,000 k a day then we will be 150,000 pound a day on interest alone. As of the 31st of July.

by **lakes10** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:01 am

my view

this is the way i think the bidding is going to work.

the board will contact names from the list that they have spoken to before. they will ask them what price would they pay for the club.
all will be opend at the same time and the best price is offerd the deal.

(from what i am told) offers must be made by the 23rd july)

wonder what will happen on this date if no offers come in? RBS set the price?

by **devaney** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:15 am

Ciggy wrote:
devaney wrote:How can that arrangement possibly satisfy the demands of RBS who insisted that the indebtedness of Liverpool FC had to be reduced. If these two somewhat dishonourable greed merchants have actually managed to pull off this stunt then surely there will be a major problem when the financing needs renegotiating if the club has not been sold by then.

Is this Cayman Island loan fact or just another rumour.Where did the information come from? I accept that the figures make some sense.

From the current set of accounts remember this is from 2009, 2010 will look much worse.

Debt 2007: 44m
Debt 2008: 350m
Debt 2009: 472.5m(237.410m owed to RBS)
Debt 2010: ?

Interest payment per day: 110.000
week: 770.000
month: 335.000
year: 40.1m

£144.5m debt to Kop Cayman attracts 10% fixed interest rate.
Approx £14.5m per year or just under £40,000 per day add that to the 110,000 k a day then we will be 150,000 pound a day on interest alone. As of the 31st of July.

Thanks for the info Ciggy. When were the accounts published for 2008/2009 - are copies available yet from companies house or have you another source? £472m seems to have very quickly come out of nowhere.I have always maintained that any well run company should not worry about an element of debt. The problem we have that this no longer a well run company. It is simply an instrument for two well advised opportunists that don't really care about Liverpool FC or it's future. They are simply motivated by an incredible appetite for money and power. At their age you really wouldn't think that they would want all the aggravation.Just shows you the mentality we are dealing with.

Igor - could they have made it any more complicated ffs !!

by **boodiddy1** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:30 pm

Amid the nervous fanfare of a new manager’s arrival at Anfield last week, some significant announcements crept out, almost unnoticed.

One was that new boss Roy Hodgson recognises implicitly the standing that Kenny Dalglish has at the club, and will ask him to fulfil a new role covering ‘player development at all levels’, which sounds suspiciously like something a director of football would do.

The other – and perhaps most significant in terms of the future of Liverpool Football Club – was almost a throwaway line from chairman Martin Broughton, who was wheeled in to handle what was clearly felt to be a sensitive press conference.

When questioned on persistent rumours about an impending takeover, he insisted that, contrary to the myth an announcement would be made on July 17, nothing was imminent.

But he reiterated the idea that he and his fellow board members now had jurisdiction over any sale, leaving American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett on the outside of the process, looking in.

In the desperate conflict that has developed in trying to rid Liverpool of their disastrous ownership regime, that is just about the best news supporters could have received in recent weeks. If it proves to be true.

Broughton explained that there have been no bids so far, but several expressions of interest, and the first round of talks with all parties should be underway by mid-July.

In effect, an auction will then take place, with the board deciding which is the best offer, and then pushing a sale through, even if it isn’t the highest bid. In effect, the chairman was suggesting he will decide what is best for Liverpool, and not necessarily best for the Americans.

Under normal circumstances, you would treat such claims with a scepticism derived from three years of wild claims and false statements from the Yanks who have brought Anfield almost to its knees.

Yet, put into context, there is reason to attach cautious optimism to the announcement. For a start, Broughton is a big beast in the business world, whose reputation transcends Liverpool.

He was approached by a friend of Hicks and brought in by Barclays Capital, to add credibility to what was a busted process. The simple equation was, Liverpool was a company worth buying, the figures all added up, but no one trusted or believed those who were selling.

Broughton’s position as a heavyweight of British business, with such a cast-iron reputation, opened doors that were previously closed. But by the same token, he will not risk that reputation, by getting involved in any American spin or dubious dealings.

There is a rumour on the business grapevine that Willie Walsh, the chief executive of British Airways, is not best pleased with his chairman at B.A. Broughton’s involvement at Anfield, given their own very high profile problems at the moment. It is tolerated, apparently, because of the sense that there can be a swift, relatively unmessy conclusion to the process.

Given that his reputation is so obviously at stake, there is no reason to believe anything other that Broughton’s words were accurate last week, which offers hope, because at the right price, there will be plenty of attractive alternatives to the American ownership.

But the other side of that equation is the fact that Broughton must now deliver. He talks about finding the right owners for Liverpool, and talks about doing that even by the end of August if negotiations go well.

With his credibility at stake, he now has to demonstrate that it can be the case. Too often in the last two years, we have been offered vague promises of movement towards a new regime, and nothing has happened.

If Broughton has the power to push a deal through, then he must do it. He must be strong in keeping Gillett and especially Hicks at arms length, and clever in out manoeuvring what will be their inevitable objections.

In America, Hicks has lost control of his Texas Rangers franchise, after defaulting on loans and going into the bankruptcy courts. Yet, because of his vast business experience, he still seems able to dictate the terms of the forced sale of the baseball club.

Clearly, the same could happen at Liverpool, even though he has apparently given his word over a sale to Barclays Capital. So strength is required, although those who have dealt with the B.A. chairman suggest he is not lacking in that area.

What he doesn’t have though, is a vast working knowledge of football (he can’t have if he’s a Chelsea fan!), and what he has to recognise quickly is what constitutes the right owner for Liverpool.

Let’s face it, there are few benevolent billionaires out there, and as much as a fans’ ownership has it obvious attractions, it is hard to envisage a situation where enough money can be raised to make that situation a reality.

Which means there are depressingly few options when it comes to deciding on a suitable new owner for Liverpool. In essence, it will come down to who is best placed to run the club, and maximise its potential.

One of the worst aspects of the American ownership has been the constant gloom their presence envelopes the club in. Because of the debt placed on the club, there is no chance of making any profits, even if it is run properly.

In recent years, the commercial team led by Ian Ayre and Philip Nash have transformed the operation from an almost amateur, bumbling commercial enterprise, to one that now rivals the likes of Manchester United. They had one sponsor, now they have 12 and counting.

They had one club store, now there are many, they had no presence in the far east, now they are the strongest club out there. Yet all that good work is being submerged by ridiculously high interest payments.

What Broughton must do is deliver owners who will not place debt on the club. RBS chief executive Stephen Hester said as much in an interview last week – and his company makes money out of that debt!

There are many who say Liverpool are doomed, seem to revel in their predictions they will lose all their best players and become a mid-table mediocrity. But there is another scenario if Broughton delivers.

Under the right ownership, with little debt placed on the club, a new stadium can be built quickly, and the commercial gains made recently can be developed even further. With the right infrastructure, with the right people at the helm, Liverpool can be amongst the biggest in the world.

Released from the misery of debt, they will make their rivals down the road at Old Trafford extremely worried, because Liverpool are still amongst the biggest, widest supported clubs in the world. Without debt last year, there would have been upwards of £70million to spend on new players.

Of course, that scenario is only possible if Broughton gets it right. So Liverpool fans must ask their new chairman not only to protect his own reputation by delivering on his word, but protect the reputation of one of the world’s historic clubs, because he would be doing a service to the whole of football.

by **Igor Zidane** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:39 pm

^^^^^^^^^ Hmmmmm David (CECIL) Maddock methinks.

by **burjennio** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:53 pm

Without debt last year, there would have been upwards of £70million to spend on new players.

That part makes me sick to my stomach, that would have been David Villa at £45m (a figure agreed then renaged on by Real Madrid) and at least 2 class additions to suspect areas.

Good to see the marketing side of LFC improving so much though, shame its been overshadowed by the mess those two p***ks have made of the actual custodianship of the club. Imagine what kind of mess we'd been in if that extra income hadn't been there :no

by **Igor Zidane** » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:57 pm

£110,000 per day in interest payments we are making . £110,000 a day . That's 7 world class players wages per week going out of the club . CRIMINAL .

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:23 am

We are up for auction aswell, bit of a co-incidance? Or are we about to go bankrupt also? What a b@stard this man is he has no feelings and no regrets about what he does to fans and he's even a Rangers fan.

Psst, wanna buy a major league team? Got $500M?

By ANGELA K. BROWN (AP) – 24 minutes ago

FORT WORTH, Texas — Got half a billion dollars? The Texas Rangers are set to go on the auction block next week after an unexpected snag in the team's bankruptcy plans.

Don't call your banker just yet. Major League Baseball will decide who can participate in the auction based on some strict guidelines — including a $1.5 million deposit and an opening bid of more than $500 million. And the league still can reject the highest bidder and select the runner-up.

Outside experts suggest the narrow limits are a clever maneuver to push through the long-delayed sale to MLB's preferred buyer, a group led by Hall of Fame pitcher Nolan Ryan, the team president, and Pittsburgh sports attorney Chuck Greenberg.

"This bankruptcy has turned into a fiasco, a three-ring circus, and this auction is very unusual in the sports world," said Wayne McDonnell Jr., a professor at New York University's Tisch Center for Hospitality, Tourism, and Sports Management. "The auction is on the up-and-up, but this favors the Greenberg-Ryan group based on the time constraints."

The team filed court documents late Monday seeking the auction, following the suggest of a court-appointed restructuring officer who will recommend whether the Rangers' bankruptcy plan should be approved at a July 22 hearing. That means potential bidders have about 10 days to pull details together for the July 16 auction, if it is approved as expected by U.S. Bankruptcy Judge D. Michael Lynn.

It's unclear whether the judge will change the proposed bidding process controlled by MLB, which is requiring bids of at least $20 million more than the Greenberg-Ryan group's offer, valued at $502 million. The league also will do a "financial investigation" of interested buyers before deciding who can submit a bid.

The auction is the latest eyebrow-raising development in the proposed sale of the Rangers. Texas is believed to be only the third MLB team to wind up in bankruptcy and the most recent, the Cubs, were in and out in a matter of days. Before that, the Baltimore Orioles were sold in a bankruptcy auction in 1993 after owner Eli Jacobs filed for Chapter 11.

This is the 50th season of the franchise that began as the Washington Senators in 1961, and moved to Texas in 1972. The Rangers won their only three American League West titles in a four-year span at the end of the 1990s, and have never won a playoff series. The Rangers are in first place in their division now and hoping to make a postseason run without distractions.

Instead, the team filed for Chapter 11 protection in May with a plan to pay creditors $75 million and sell the Rangers to the Greenberg-Ryan group, a deal stalled for months by lenders' concerns over $525 million in loan defaults by team owner Tom Hicks' ownership group. Creditors also argued that the Greenberg-Ryan bid of $575 million wasn't the highest and urged the judge to reopen the bidding process.

Little has been heard from the unsecured creditors, who would be paid in full, plus interest, under the Rangers' plan. That list of 30 is topped by New York Yankees star Alex Rodriguez, who is owed $24.9 million in deferred compensation six years after he was traded.

Although even the judge has said he understands why the highest bidder might not have been chosen, the team agreed to an auction after realizing its plan was in serious trouble even after it submitted an amended version that restored creditors' rights. William K. Snyder, the restructuring officer appointed to make sure the team was maximizing its assets, indicated he would approve the Rangers' plan only after an auction, according to documents filed by the team.

Potential bidders include Houston businessman Jim Crane, who lenders say had the highest bid before the Greenberg-Ryan group was chosen by MLB, and Dallas businessman Jeff Beck, who helped finance a bid by former sports agent Dennis Gilbert.

Greenberg and Ryan, who have waived their exclusive rights to buy the team, said they have secured full financing for their offer and still expect to close the deal.

Major League Baseball wants the Greenberg-Ryan group "in the worst possible way" because Ryan is not only a baseball legend but has been successful with his minor-league franchises, McDonnell said.

"Even if (Dallas Mavericks owner) Mark Cuban wanted to buy the Rangers, Major League Baseball would reject him because of who he is, even though he is brilliant and talented," McDonnell said. "MLB doesn't want someone who will rock the boat."

Cuban did not immediately respond to requests for comment by The Associated Press. After losing in a bid to purchase the Chicago Cubs last year, Cuban said he was still interested in buying a baseball team.

Separately, a confidential mediation session started Tuesday in Dallas with the team, league, creditors, restructuring officer and others.

http://www.google.com/hostedn....GPQLSG0

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:31 pm

heres what me mrs saw today on old hall street

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:heres what me mrs saw today on old hall street

haha look at the dog sitting off in the back

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:35 pm

the dog had a liverpool scarf on!!!!

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:39 pm

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