Liverpool FC Forum

by **zarababe** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:55 pm

So any more news on potential investors ? Not Lakesy induced please !

by **Kopite25** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:57 pm

bavlondon wrote:Also whats to say if you gave up your season ticket someone else wouldn't take it? The club is so well supported I don't doubt that they would be filled in just as easily.

There's nothing to say somebody wont and with over 40,000 on the waiting list i'm sure it'll be gone in seconds.

however I work damned hard to pay for the St and if anybody thinks that I'll just hand that over to dumb & dumber then they need there head testing!!!

Also Reg you made the point about not giving it up in case things change in the future. what future do we have if everybody line their pockets? Non is the simple short answer!!!

Now I do believe everybody will do what they feel is right, but coming onto a forum & bit*hing & moaning whilst still lining the owners pockets is just plain stupidity!!!

by **7_Kewell** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:02 pm

I don’t think boycotting tickets and shirts will have any effect. And even if it did, I could see H & G selling Torres to make up the shortfall and blaming the fans for the sale.

by **supersub** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:51 pm

Kopite25 wrote:I like how everyone is saying they will give up cup tickets and not speand anything in the ground etc but are not willing to give up their season ticket (wreaks of hypocrosy to me).

I've had my season ticket for 30 years...My uncle put my name on a waiting list 10 years prior to me being granted that season ticket....there is a massive waiting list now...my son has been on it for 10 years and there is still no light at the end of the tunnel.....I have no doubt that the seat that I have in a prime centre field location will be immediately filled the day I refuse to pay the going rate......

It's not hypocrisy to refuse to pay out further for cup tickets or spend any more money at the ground.....

It's just a case of don't throw out the baby with the bath water....

by **supersub** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:05 pm

Kopite25 wrote:It's not what I want to hear either & que everyone jumping on my back saying well atleast we are doing SOMETHING which yes is better than nothing. But do you really think in the grand scheme of things it will make the slightest difference??

Do as little as refusing to pay for cup tickets and purchasing merchandise will seem a lot greater than you relinquishing your season ticket to be replaced by another person who has waited for years ...your act will go completely un noticed but it will save you money ....every little means a lot :nod

by **Kopite25** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:11 pm

supersub wrote:
Kopite25 wrote:It's not what I want to hear either & que everyone jumping on my back saying well atleast we are doing SOMETHING which yes is better than nothing. But do you really think in the grand scheme of things it will make the slightest difference??

Do as little as refusing to pay for cup tickets and purchasing merchandise will seem a lot greater than you relinquishing your season ticket to be replaced by another person who has waited for years ...your act will go completely un noticed but it will save you money ....every little means a lot

But day trrippers will be there for the cup games buying up empty tickets will they not?

And it's not about me saving money its about me giving it to line H&G pockets. yes somebody will take my place in barely seconds but I can sleep at night knowing I've done the right thing!!!

it's all good and well saying I've had mine 30 years & had to wait 10 to get that etc etc but it's everyone taking that opinion that will kill this great club.

I don't think me doing this is any better than what anyone else will or wont do but it's just too keep my on peace of mind that I did all I could personally

by **supersub** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:27 pm

Kopite25 wrote:But day trrippers will be there for the cup games buying up empty tickets will they not?

And they are the ones we need to convince that their small sacrifice of one or two games a season will hold the key to the bigger impact of empty stadiums and tills at Anfield on Cup match day......it will certainly gain a lot of media coverage

by **supersub** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:28 pm

Kopite25 wrote:it's all good and well saying I've had mine 30 years & had to wait 10 to get that etc etc but it's everyone taking that opinion that will kill this great club.

so it's the long time season ticket holders that are going to kill the club........do me a favour :veryangry

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:22 pm

From RAWK

As stated in the first thread about fighting back, I’ve had inside information that RBS, are very worried about the loans to H&G, that they are wavering in their committment to both H&G and the loans... and that they really don’t want to give any further extension on the loans.

And most importantly, I’ve been told they will be ” very receptive” to any further pressure.

In other words... their bottle's gone, and they want to pull the plug on Hicks & Gillettte but they are dithering, but enough pressure from us could just push them over the edge.

Obviously, I can’t divulge too much about how all this was aquired, but after a lot of discussion on this with my contact and a couple of others in the know, a friend has drafted a letter. It is very thorough and details the whole disaster which is H&G. More importantly it is structured in a way to put a great deal of pressure on the relevant executives at RBS and the relevant politicians.

So, let's let them know that we refuse to be conned or placated any more. We are not falling for any of it and that we are holding them responsible for the damage already inflicted on LFC and for any further damage that extending the loans will inflict.

So, yes it’s more bloody letter writing. But all we need you to do is...
fire up the printer, get a few envelopes and sheets of paper, and a book of first class stamps…
Bingo. Done. No big deal. And very very little effort to aid your club as best you can in it's time of biggest need.

There's no excuses now. You can do this from anywhere in the world....

Send the letter on as it is - but add a wee personel note. Tell them where you got the letter from. Tell them you are personally aware of what’s going on and there are many thousands like you - and make sure to tell them that like many thousands of people, you will hold them responsible for any more damage inflicted upon LFC.

It's time we let them know that we hold them accountable for the damage already done, and for any further damage Hicks and Gillette inflict on the club because their loans and extensions are not only enabling them to carry on causing further damage - but also reaping them many millions in interest.

And make it plain that this has to stop.

I will post the letter shortly. But first I want people to digest that, simply because...
I'm frankly disgusted by the lack of effort seen so far. It's a disgrace.

The same old usual culprits constantly being left to do what we should all be doing without a seconds thought...
It's your club. It's being systematically milked for all it's worth, and that will probably continue until we all draw a line, say that's enough and stand and fight for it.

So, :censored:

stand up and be counted then!

That's not to belittle the efforts of all the good people that have done their bit. In fact, some have gone way above and beyond the call of duty. But they need help! They need numbers to be effective - as does this next stage of the campaign.

Well, it's in your hands now.

How many of you want the alternative kit?

Within hours so many had made requests for the kit, that it grew into 3 seperate threads, all rapidly going up in head counts - while other anti-owner threads struggled to stay on the front page of the site.... that's a disgrace.

Don't take that wrong... John, Kit and the others working on the alternative kit are all committed to this and doing a great job. Some are working on all this while suffering personal hardship and tragedy... I don't have the words to praise them lads enough.

But the rest of you... ffs, it's not a fashion show.

Just walking round in the next must have accesory for the young LFC fan is not fighting H&G... not if you don't put in any committment or effort.

I'm telling you straight, I'm not only dismayed by the reaction and apathy, I'm about to throw the towel in...
If you can't be arsed, why should anyone else?

And if we give up... well, we know the consequences, just ask fans of the Corinthians.

So ffs get on it. Prove me wrong. Show there's still fight left. More importantly show the bloody bankers and politicians that you aren't going to take it anymore... and drag in as many people as you can.

In unity there's strength... and there's bloody millions of us. Get enough of them on this and we can win and you can look them in the eye when you're asked....
"What did you do in the war Daddy?"

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=259237.0

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:26 pm

AND HERE IS THE LETTER ,PUT YOUR OWN SIGNATURE .GET COPYING ,GET YOUR ENVOLOPES AND STAMPS AND GET POSTING,

To:
John Hourican
Chief Executive, Global Banking and Markets
RBS
36 St Andrew Square
Edinburgh
EH2 2YB

Distribution list:
cc. Suneel Kamlani, GBM
cc. Marco Mazzucchelli, GBM
cc. Alan Dickinson, UK Corporate
cc. Mark Catton, UK Corporate
cc. Roger Lowry, Head of Public Affairs
cc. Dr Vince Cable, Secretary of State BIS (1 Victoria Street London
SW1H 0ET)
cc. Jeremy Hunt, Secretary of State, Sport (2-4 Cockspur Street London
SW1Y 5DH)

Dear Mr Hourican

I wish to convey my ongoing and extreme dissatisfaction over the
management of the RBS loan facility provided to Tom Hicks and George
Gillett, that continues to prop up their catastrophic ownership of
Liverpool Football Club.

I am not a member, but the supporters union, Spirit of Shankly, one of
the most vociferous opponents of the current regime, recently ran an
billboard advertising campaign targeting the ownership of the club
that used the appropriate tag line "Debt, Lies, Cowboys". I am going
to unashamedly borrow that line as a structure to this letter.

Debt
As you know, the club's debts as of last July stood at £351m, of which
£237m constitutes the loan facility provided by RBS, the remainder
being in high-interest intra-company loan from Hicks and Gillett's
offshore holding company, Kop Cayman. These figures may have changed
slightly over the past 11 months since the accounts entered into the
public domain, but no additional investment has been secured by the
owners, and there remains no doubt that the overall debt is escalating
to a point whereby negative equity will very soon come into effect, if
not already a reality.

In addition to this, the club's ongoing ability to service such a debt
has become highly unsustainable. Improving sponsorship income is
relatively insignificant, and the only measure which could have
significantly supported this level of borrowing - the building of a
new stadium - has not in over 3 years, proceeded beyond architectural
renders, the apparent cost of which, an obscene £50m, has also been
put on the club's balance sheet. Against this backdrop of
unserviceable loans and gross financial misconduct, it is therefore no
surprise that the club's auditors, KPMG, have for the second year
running raised red flags, expressing "material uncertainty about
(the club's) ability to continue operating as a going concern". A
damning indictment that instigated the Premier League to demand that
the club's newly-installed Chairman, Martin Broughton (more on him
later), appear before their Chief Executive and Board of Directors in
person to provide verbal assurances that the club would in fact be
able to meet its fixture list for the forthcoming 2010-11 season.
Leaving aside the embarrassment, it is not difficult to see the
Premier League's perspective. The phrase "living hand to mouth"
springs to mind.

Forgive my stating the obvious to a senior professional banker at this
point, but it is purely to set up and illustrate a point. Like any
borrowings, the conditions for obtaining a credit facility of this
type is based on the financial background of the individuals in
question, their existing commitments, the value of the purchased
asset, and in the case of refinancing, I would imagine their recent
history and behaviour when it comes to servicing the existing loan,
and any others held by them. Which brings us to Tom Hicks.

Lies
Liverpool fans and credible media (both UK and global) are clear in
that Tom Hicks tells lies. The list is a long one but here is the
latest relevant example, provoked by the condemnation by the club's
former Chairman who deeply regrets selling to Hicks and Gillett. You
can view it online at the following URL, together with valid
deconstruction, here:http://www.spiritofshankly.com/news/Tom-Hicks-_-You-Couldn-sss-t-Make-It-Up-(Well-Actually,-Tom-Can).html

So, in addition to his established propensity for lies, l wish to
address the basis for the latest extension of the RBS facility, which
was conditional on the agreement that the club be officially put up
for sale, with Hicks conceding to step back from the process in order
to realise a quick transfer of ownership. This agreement was ratified
by the appointment of the aforementioned Martin Broughton, who has
confirmed that his is a short-term part-time role, the sole remit of
which is to find and approve an appropriate buyer for the club at a
fair market price. It is not difficult to assume therefore that his
appointment was at RBS' express request, via an intermediary third
party. "Within months" was Mr Brougton's statement on the timescale
for sale, upon taking up the position in April.

However, since then, there have been numerous interview quotes from
Hicks, arrogant and belligerent as ever, claiming that irrespective of
the 'For Sale' announcement, he will continue demand up to a totally
unrealistic £800m for the club and that he is willing to prolong the
situation and take up to two years to sell. He is even boasting in the
US media about how profitable Liverpool FC will be for him, all
bluster designed to divert attention from the harsh reality that he is
in financial dire straits and has been for some time. These comments
are clearly a stark contradiction of those reassurances he provided
the RBS with, and thus render them meaningless. Like us, the fans, you
are being lied to. It is not difficult to surmise that Hicks'
agreement to sell was simply a ploy to obtain 'breathing space' -
which you duly obliged with, at least verbally - in which to further
his agenda of financial pillage, possibly even petty revenge (on the
fans who have rightly not allowed him to act without accountability,
the "terrible personal price" he often complains about) but ultimately
a desire to seek personal profit whatever the cost to the club, or its
creditors.

Cowboys
Talking of creditors, what surely must be of even greater concern to
the RBS, is the eerily similar situation Hicks finds himself in with
his US sporting assets, the Dallas Stars and the Texas Rangers. In
April 2009, Hicks willingly allowed both clubs (operated by Hicks
Sports Group) to default on $525m loan, a premeditated decision that
Hicks himself insisted was a "negotiating tactic" designed to force
the banks to renegotiate the terms of the loan. I must try that line
myself next time I wake up one morning and take a sudden dislike to my
existing RBS mortgage rate, the one I happily agreed to on signing. In
fact, I would be, quite literally, betting my mortgage on the outcome
of that particular conversation.

Not content with just that small matter of defaulting on a half-
billion dollar loan, Hicks has now, as of a few weeks ago, forced the
Texas Rangers to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, following a
protracted and now stalemated sale process. Sound familiar? It gets
even worse, as although the Rangers owe $540m to their creditors, (the
majority secured against the club, the remainder against, yet again,
Hicks Sports Group, another part of Hicks Holdings LLC, the onus being
on the 'limited liability' aspect) under the terms of the sale
(preferred one of the two deals offered) that Hicks is trying to force
through, it seems the creditors only stand to receive $230m of the
$540m the club is being sold for. This has been extensively covered in
the US media and the facts verified. In which case, if I was sitting
in the RBS' shoes, I would have extreme concerns about Hicks
attempting the same financial sleight of hand, and asking myself
exactly what tangible assets the £237m loan I've provided is actually
secured against, given the paper trails of Hicks' myriad of limited
companies all end up offshore and with zero personal liability. Yes,
there is 'the club', but the owners are continuing to asset-strip
(sales of high value players required for ongoing success and
Champions League income, and the recent sacking of a highly-respected
manager who was outspoken in his condemnation of Hicks and Gillett's
ownership), siphon off funds and are unwilling to provide or accept
additional investment, all the while the value of the club is
depreciating along with the chances of realising the repayment on your
loan capital.

It should also be worth noting that latest reports this week state
that Hicks has yet again blocked any sale to two separate potential
buyers, simply on the basis of his wholly unrealistic asking price.
This adds considerable weight to the already strong opinion that,
unlike his co-owner George Gillett, Hicks has no intention of wanting
to sell the club. His asking price is said to include added valuation
for the future revenues generated by a stadium that he failed to
build, and that a new buyer will have to pay to build instead, a
stance that is as bizarre as it is illogical and which therefore
represents an insurmountable block to any sale, now or in the future.

Essentially, these actions speak, in fact, shout of a man whose
shameful conduct and objectionable character raises deeply concerning
questions about RBS' continuing exposure on this £237m loan and
subsequently, a very real threat to the continued existence of
Liverpool FC in its current status as one of Europe's leading football
clubs. This latest agreement for refinancing for up to 12 months,
ostensibly to allow a sales process to go through unimpaired and
without pressure, serves no-one's benefits except Tom Hicks. What will
be the excuse when he, as his history and substantial current evidence
suggests he will, sells off the prize assets, and files for bankruptcy
as per the Rangers, leaving the club in terminal financial decline or
worse, and with the RBS, the club's major creditor out of pocket? Not
to mention, the wider political consequences at allowing this to
happen unchallenged. Do not underestimate this last point, as this
matter is not an isolated one (the Glazer family's ownership - £1.2bn
of debt's worth - of Manchester United for example) but as with the
banking crisis that forced RBS to seek government bailout, you will
unfortunately be viewed as culpable through negligent inaction and
held to account.

Summary
And so to the crux of my expression of disgust and request for action.
Aside from the financial hand grenade that is currently being juggled,
the RBS and its majority shareholder HM Government have both a
collective financial and moral responsibility to ensure that such a
prestigious UK global export is not driven into unmanaged
administration and ruin by the stubborn and irresponsible actions of
two US nationals, one of whom in particular has a clear agenda and is
leveraged up to their neck in debt. By providing yet another loan
extension and/or refinance in order not to influence a sales process
(one that Hicks is clearly not committed to), the RBS and HM
Government are therefore willingly complicit in this unfolding
disaster, a fact which will not go unnoticed or unchallenged. I am
aware the Bank has provided the club with day-to-day banking services
for many years long predating the arrival of Hicks and Gillett, and I
only hope that this long-term relationship engenders a mutual desire
to see financial stability and success.

Fortunately, there is still an opportunity to halt this seemingly
inexorable decline. This can be achieved by withdrawing any existing
agreement to extend the loan effective immediately, essentially
foreclosing on the loan to Hicks and Gillett (as Kop Football Ltd)
secured against the club. Informal short-term administration by any
other name, would I assure you be welcomed by all Liverpool fans, if
it ensured the removal of the current owners. This action would then
allow Martin Broughton to facilitate the sale of the club quickly
(there remains many interested buyers out there at a realistic market
price, as Barclays Capital will attest) under your mandate without
veto or negative interference from Hicks.

By doing so, you will be sending out a strong and positive message
about supporting UK interests, corporate prudence and cleaning up
financial mismanagement, a message that all addressed recipients of
this letter, both at the RBS and the new Coalition Government, would
surely benefit from given their own past events and the current
financial climate. I'll sign off with an unfortunate but apt analogy
using another Liverpool-related world famous entity. This is a last
chance to steer a footballing Titanic hard to starboard to avoid a
looming and malevolent iceberg and towards a bright and prosperous
future. Actively ensuring the ship keeps to its current course,
however, is not an appropriate action and history will judge the RBS
accordingly.

I implore you on behalf of fellow Liverpool stakeholders, please act
now in the best interests of the club and indeed yourselves.

Yours faithfully,

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:41 pm

Anyone interested in one of these

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=259045.0

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:10 pm

Nan that post from fat Scouser & the letter is boss, when I loose all hope & faith in some of our fans its people like you, him and others that drag me up again.

The MP for Liverpool Walton, the only constituency in the country that contains two Barclays Premier League clubs, Liverpool and Everton, has laid down a parliamentary early day motion calling on the House of Commons to “express its dismay” at the plight of Liverpool under Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, the co-owners.

The motion put down by Steve Rotherham, MP, states: “This house expresses its dismay at the failure of the American owners of Liverpool Football Club to exercise responsible stewardship of the club; notes the departure of the outgoing manager Rafael Benítez; regrets the failure to fulfil promises of a new stadium; supports consultation and engagement with supporters’ groups and looks to an early change of ownership and a positive strategy to take the club forward.”

At the heart of Rotherham’s concern is his disappointment at the damage that the stalled new stadium project is doing to plans to regenerate the North Liverpool area that surrounds Anfield and he is intending to bring pressure to bear on the club to make good on the promises made by Hicks and Gillett.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol....883.ece

by **tubby** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:47 pm

Great letter that but the RBS post confuses me. They are now worried yet only a few months ago they granted them a 12 month extension? Is there any way they can still call in the loan prior to that 12 months elapsing?

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:51 pm

bavlondon wrote:Great letter that but the RBS post confuses me. They are now worried yet only a few months ago they granted them a 12 month extension? Is there any way they can still call in the loan prior to that 12 months elapsing?

The yanks havent signed it yet............

by **tubby** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:52 pm

zarababe wrote:So any more news on potential investors ? Not Lakesy induced please !

So you want rumors but not from someone who has been correct in predicting things before? :laugh:

Here's a prediction for oyu... Maradona sacked in the next 3 weeks.

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