Video Technology Debate - The Pro's and the Con's

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby red37 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:07 pm

There appears to be some call for a thread discussing this subject - (When isn't there?). While i havn't got time at the moment to do a full synopsis on it and introduce some food for thought and common (mis)conceptions. I think you guys can pretty much help out by offering your opinions in here: I might transfer one or two posts that emerged in the EFC v LFC aftermath thread over the course, we'll see how it goes. So, your two-pennorths on this highly contentious and pertinantly topical issue are welcome.

Right up to now there are one or two contributions that will help get the ball rolling, BM can have the honour of the first entry. I'll add the rest in a jiffy.

Bigmick - I do think on a slightly seperate note that it's about time that football considered using some video coverage. Something siliar to the tennis thing where the captain of the team in question has two incidents per half which they can question might work, or even a system like in rugby where the ref goes to kind of a "third umpire" over penalties. We';ve only had nine league games this season andit seems there's been extremely controversial instances in almost every one.


maguskwt - I believe someone has mentioned this before. I don't mind that kind of system at all. But I do think 2 decisions per half is too many... imagine some referees like to stop the game alot and on top of that you can have 4 challenges/stoppages in a half (2 from each team) not to mention injury disruptions. I would think that 1 challenge from each team per half is sufficient if ever this kind of system is implemented. After all you don't want to put too much power into the hands of the players given the fact that referees are already under alot of pressure and you also would want to make the respective captains of the team think carefully before making any challenge calls as they won't want to waste them.


puroresu - Technology can only work with goal line decisions as its a fact which cant be denied.  Things like penalties and offsides can be debated so technology wouldnt work.


Ace Ventura - Thats not strictly true as technology will be able to show a fourth official different angles which give a far clearer indication.
Not saying it should definately happen for things like penalties but it would help get decisions right without question.


taff - football is different to rugby so the video technology argument has to be debated thus

the main stumbling block i see is that if it is introduced then managers and players would demand for it to be used to many times in a game. football is such a big business that i could see lawyers being used to debate decisions.


username - I dont see whats wrong with a quick look at the video for a big decision that there not sure about, it wont take any longer, teams  stand there complaining about it for 2 minutes anyway


JamCar05 - I agree with this. Video evidence just isn't for football imho. It would take so much intensity out of the game, if we were to stop the game each time someone contested an offside decision, a freekick etc. And most of the time, you can't even be sure about the decision being right anyway, as the pictures might not always be conclusive and can often depend on different angles (ie from one angle it looks like a definite freekick, but from another it doesn't). Then the refs would not only have to watch one videoclip, but would have to watch it from say seven different angles and THEN discuss which one looks the most valid one. Imagine standing in the crowd and having to wait for this a number of times during a game - as Homer J. Simpson would so eloquently put it: BORING! I know some people might suggest that each team had maybe 2 calls each for watching a decision on video, but even then I think I'd be against it for the above reasons.

By all means bring on the goalline technology though (if it works properly), as this wouldn't be so time consuming and doesn't happen all that often, but can be very crucial when it does happen (I know a dubious offside decision can be so aswell, but you already know my arguments from above   :D )


red37 - Im against it on the whole.

For decisions involving the ball crosing the goal line, there is a viable case. But when you start to go down the road of 'Video referees' ala Super League (which actually works very well) In that particular sport...the intuitive nature of this fast moving spectacle and some of the passion/spontenaiety involved may start to get diluted.

I mean - i see 'some' point and place for it...in the major 'big' issues. And lets face it the referees assistants are next to useless when it comes down to actually doing anything constructive by and large. So the scope is there - its just the implementation of the thing and the disruption it could cause. Like username says...The players contesting a dubious decision are bound to harass the officials anyway (regardless of the fact they should not be doing so) - in the light of that fact, there is i admit a period of time thats wasted which could well be spent replaying an incident to the attention of an appointed official on the sidelines.. But, some of the fluidity and more especially the Drama - the human element (by default the inherent mistakes) all add to the whole package.

And while its wrong to rely on those errors becoming a gamebreaker (we've already been the victim and the benefactor) on two such occasions this term...they do at least fuel the fires of debate and go some way to making the game of Football as appealing and as controversially pulsating at times that it is.

OK there are blatant, and downright clear cut scenarios in which its use could be helpful. But equally care must be taken to avoid the watering down of the whole spirit of the game. Sadly, much of that has eroded for reasons that belong in other threads. I would just advocate a little caution in asking for carte blanche over the situation via a Television Lens. At the very least there is a strong argument for goal line technology...but not any that makes the referee's decisions entirely redundant - i mean, who would kop all the stick then? There has to be some scapegoat to call rotten from the stands!!
Last edited by red37 on Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby babu » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:12 pm

For no logical reason i'm against it. In fact i'd hate to see any form of video replay assistance come in at all. its just not fooball.

red you shoulda made this a poll.
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Postby dawson99 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:13 pm

the 2 decisions rule is just silly. in tennis it is already being abused for players who want a rest for a moment.

all we really need is to see if the ball has crossed the line.

what we do need is a system whereas if a player has dived to win something, after amatch even if the matter is not in the refs notes a panel can see it was a dive and give a 3 match ban. that should stop some of the tomfoolery. As for the rest, it will make it mroe like rugby. football is there to be a fast flowing game and if all the video stuff occured then what would we talk about in the pub after?
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Postby taff » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:22 pm

ok this debate seems to rear its ugly head a lot more frequently these days.  i remember posting about this a few years ago on this forum and my views are the same

people compare to rugby and the use of video technology. it is only used regarding tries, there are specific rules to grounding the ball and whether a part of the body is in touch a la england last weekend.  this is completely different to a goal debate.  it is NOT used in open play hence the debate about refereeing mistakes a la the all blacks against france.

my main concern about football is the culture of the game.  another comparison with rugby is the way referees are treated and fotball should follow rugby, well i have heard that before and it never happens. fifa clamping down etc, well they dont simple as that.  a player swears then yellow card him immedately, but it doesnt happen. 

football has a differet,not better or worse just different culture. i could honestly see with the money and importance of gaining points for league position, a situation where clubs have video analysis positions, probably lawyers in years to come who will put pressure on the officials to debate loads of decisions as the game is played

rugby is a tactical territorial game while football ebbs and flows up the pitch a lot quicker so fouls etc anywhere on the pitch could be argued as preventing scoring opportunities

i simply have no faith in the backbone of the games administrators to stand up to what are noe corporate clubs all looking for an advantage in the marketplace
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Postby RUSHIE#9 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:24 pm

I'd only want to see video replays brought in for deciding whether the ball crossed the line or not. We've already got the camera's that are dead level with the goal lines. Admittedly they aren't always conclusive but they have that thing in cricket where the batsman is faded out to see if the ball is in line with the wickets so why can't they use that to remove the posts and any players in the way?
Apart from that I agree that all other decision's need to be left the way they are, otherwise we'll end up with games longer than a cricket test match.
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Postby red37 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:29 pm

babu wrote:red you shoulda made this a poll.

Kind of agree babu - just there might be more legs in it having the opportunity for people to put forward any ideas that have or have not already been suggested, i'd like to hear all your thoughts on it anyway. Polls by themselves are great for a quick demographic illustration - but there's nothing like a good old chinwag over the same thing...time and again!
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Postby Emerald Red » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:35 pm

Well, if you cast your mind back to the incident with Roy Carol at Old Traford a while back where Spurs scored a goal that was about half a mile behind the goal, then what's the point? If a ref isn't even going to give something like that, then it's hopeless. Personally, I do think there should be a camera on the posts just to make sure of things like this. I know everyone likes a bit of controversy in their football, but that incident at OT a few seasons back was just a disgrace to the game and for anyone with a set of eyes. Makes you wonder what's really going on.
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Postby burjennio » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:42 pm

There are now so many contentious issues in the EPL every single weekend now that for me, it absolutely has to become a part of the modern game.

With the masses of viewers worldwide, coupled with the amount of money at stake every match is now scrutinized by numerous tv panelists, newspapers and in some occasions meanstream media meaning that referees now HAVE TO GET IT RIGHT, if not we get a melee of controversy like what happened over the weekend and whether you believe the officials got each decision right or wrong, the hulabaloo that comes with each big game is now taking away from the results and performance. We shouldn't have to repeatedly blame referees and officials for the outcomes of matches, it should be up to the teams and managers

The question is then how do you implement such a system?How do we set the right balance so that the technology is used but the fluidity of the game and enjoyment of the fans is not affected. IMO the best option is to play advantage in all cases where the official isn't 100%. If nothing comes of it, fine, if the team playing the advantage goes on to score, then consult the replays. In all honesty I think after a month it would have bedded in as easily as the backpass rule, and FWIW people complained about that when it was put forward too!!

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Well, if you cast your mind back to the incident with Roy Carol at Old Traford a while back where Spurs scored a goal that was about half a mile behind the goal, then what's the point? If a ref isn't even going to give something like that, then it's hopeless. Personally, I do think there should be a camera on the posts just to make sure of things like this. I know everyone likes a bit of controversy in their football, but that incident at OT a few seasons back was just a disgrace to the game and for anyone with a set of eyes. Makes you wonder what's really going on.


That game still gives me rage to this day, I was robbed of over £300 on a treble featuring Spurs 8-1, Bolton at 3-1 and Wigan at 9-4 that night, only at old trafford!
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Postby JamCar05 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:43 pm

I think most people agree on this point about goal line technology though Emerald Red. The big discussion seems to be, whether you would or would not like the introduction of video playback to watch other incidents such as offsides etc. There are various arguments for and against this, and I have already stated mine in one of the quotes at the top of this topic.
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Postby heimdall » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:17 pm

babu wrote:For no logical reason i'm against it. In fact i'd hate to see any form of video replay assistance come in at all. its just not fooball.

red you shoulda made this a poll.

Fecking luddite!!! :rasp

In seriousness though I want to see it introduced in the same way it is with Cricket and Rugby and almost every other sport in the world!
That is that there is a 4th umpire sitting watching the TV like us only that he has control over which angles to replay if an incident occurs and he is brought in only when the referee is not sure, or he can signal the referee if he spots something amiss. Anyone who has seen the tension before a TV decision in Rugby and Cricket will know that it doesn't take away form the passion of the game but actually adds to it. It has to be introduced but as long as we have bunch of old farts in the FA who genuinely saw McClaren as a viable option for England manager then I doubt it will ever happen.
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Postby red37 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:22 pm

Some pearls of wisdom on the subject from Monsieur Platini:

Platini: video replays would 'destroy football'  TELEGRAPH

Steve Wilson - 12/10/2007


Using video technology to rule on decisions during a match would 'destroy football' according Uefa president Michel Platini.

Platini stressed that constant interruptions to verify refereeing decisions would disrupt the natural flow of the game at the same time as undermining the authority of referees. Michel Platini is against use of video technology other than on the goal-line
However, Platini backed plans for extra goalmouth officials, an idea which the world ruling body Fifa is to experiment with at the Club World Cup in Japan in December.

There has been a clamour for the use of video technology in the wake of a number of contentious penalty decisions in high profile matches this season but the head of European football's governing body has made clear his opposition the use of video evidence during games.

"Video referees would destroy football," Platini said. "If we had this, in 10 years' time, we would no longer have any referees, refereeing would be over forever and we would have to use a video.

"Video is a big problem for me. You would have to stop the game every 10 seconds, for every decision that is questioned.

"Football is a human game and the mistakes are human. We need to help solve the mistakes, but we must not lose the human feeling of our sport."

The use of video replays during matches has become well-established in rugby and cricket as a way of making key decisions, though both have more natural breaks in play in which to use them without interfering with the flow of matches.

Platini also professed support for adding match officials to the key areas of the pitch.

"We need to help referees to stop making mistakes and these two extra referees will focus on the two 18-yard boxes, so this will help solve this.

"Ten eyes are certainly better than six."

The tournament in Japan will also be used to continue tests on goal-line technology developed by ball manufacturer adidas, using a chip in the match ball to determine whether shots had crossed the line.

**********************************************

A couple of responses that were attatched to the original article:

For Platini to say that you would have to stop every 10 seconds for every decision that is questioned demonstrates to me just how flawed his prejudice is against the use of video evidence. Firstly, it would be the referee in consultation with the fourth official to decide whether he should refer to the video, although say two appeals could be allowed for each team as well. These referrals to the video would only be for major decisions during the match and not be occurring every few seconds. The most contentious issue demanding video evidence is a goal disputed because of offside and the game is stopped anyway. If the ball is not in the back of the net, it is not an issue. The other issue where video evidence would be crucial is the referee's assessment of a bad tackle leading to injury and again, the game would be stopped anyway. It would be the referee's decision to use the video evidence and therefore only in the most extreme circumstances should it be allowed to stop the flow of the game. This in conjunction with goalmouth technology should put an end to the ridiculous and completely unacceptable situation where referee's decisions are subsequently shown by video to have been wrong and have erroneously changed the course of the match. Gone are the days (pre video)when we could argue about it in the pub afterwards without anyone really knowing who was right.

It isn't the in game video review we are asking for, it is the post game video review to punish the criminals that get away with murder on the pitch and aren't punished.  It would not be hard to review contencious decisions after the game and hand out punishments that fit the crime. This could also be used to fine referees that are falling for the deception put on by players to be awarded penalties and to get opposing players carded.
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Postby LFC2007 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:56 pm

I don't want to see video technology introduced into the game at any level during matches.

I dread to think of the day when football supporters await a decision to be thrust onto a giant screen.

Rugby and Cricket can have their hawkeye's and Video Ref's. In football it just wouldn't be right IMO. They are very different sports, in a number of ways.

If video technology is going to be introduced for the issue of did the ball cross the line, it may aswell be implemented in other areas.

For example, an offside decision that leads a disallowed goal, that may or may not be correct is just as significant as did it cross the line.

'Is the player beyond a certain line that renders him offside?' before he scores a goal is very similar to 'is the whole of the ball beyond the goal line?'

They are both questions of judgement, there may be more ambiguity when deciding if a player is offside, given the various components that must be analysed before taking the decision e.g. timing of the pass, timing of the run, the line of the defence, active/inactive etc.

However, in the ball crossing the line scenario, despite these generally being more clear cut than offside judgements there are scenarios where it's difficult to decide if the whole of the ball crossed the whole of the line.

Hawkeye technology may be able to clarify whether the ball crossed the line or not with a very small margin of error, but it cannot judge whether a player is beyond a certain point that makes him offside (to my knowledge) and sure as feck can't make a judgement whether a player is active or inactive, a decision that is just as consequential.

Maybe the Hawkeye specialists need to get back to the drawing board and create a system that identifies whether a player is onside or offside in instances where a goal is disallowed. Even still, for me they'd be wasting their time.

Even if such a system was available, and even if video technology was confined to the issues of the ball crossing the line and offside decisions in cases of disallowed goals only, I would still object.

Mark me down as an anti-vidoetechnologist.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:47 pm

No.

Nay.

Never.

Not in any guise or capacity.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:49 pm

Yeh i can see it now. Hawkeye you blind tw@tin feckin machine thing , how could you not see that was a goal you feckin softsh!te pr!ck. or

Who's the b@stard ? who's the b@astard ? who's the b@stard in the video booth?

Just doesn't do it for me.
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Postby EddieC » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:25 pm

Like most on here I would only use it to decide if the ball had crossed the line or not.

For other decisions I wouldn't use it, but in terms of slowing the game down it probably would be a lot quicker than the inevitable arguing with the ref that follows any big decision.
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