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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Kharhaz » Wed May 21, 2008 4:41 am

Number 9 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:If Hicks does have first refusal, what is stopping him from buying only some of Gillette's shares to the point where he has the majority and then letting Gillette sell the rest to DIC?

Because he is playing the I want all of LFC card!
Even if he did own say 60% and someone else the rest that is not total control!
He cares no more about owning LFC than i do about the political situation on Mars,he cares about dollars and as soon as enough are on the table he'll be off as quick as he appeared!

I dont think so. He isnt getting any younger and must no doubt be thinking of his children, grand children by investing in the club. He wants total control. By my reckoning nothing wrong with that, but for the club to make money they have to, as the saying goes, spend it to make it. If hicks does take total control and the club has huge success then sure he will be making the money, but in another light, the club will be winning big things and successful. This shared arrangement is not doing the club any favours. We need just one owner. Its looks more likely to be one of the yanks rather than DIC. One of the two has to give sooner or later then maybe, just maybe things will look a bit rosier.

Sorry mate you are right,im wrong!
Hicks is a great guy....yeah right! :laugh:

So all along you reckon he's been fuc'king with LFC just to secure the future of his kids and grand children,aw what a sweet old man eh?
A heart of gold he has!

Wrong lad!
they are both bast'ards and nothing will be looking "rosier" until they are both out!

Your just like many on here who are single minded, all you have done is responded to my post but havent come up with a solution to the problem. This one problem, the one problem, is, we are fans, we love the club, but we can do absolutely nothing about our owners. They have money. We dont. All I have tried to point out is, it is not in our hands. We like to think it is but the fact is, and this will hurt you, it isnt. We have to pick a more likely option and stick to it. All this forum offers is endless pickings from the press made by members adding there two pennies worth. Even though it isnt theirs. All we can do as supporters is accept the simple and obvious truth. And so many cannot.
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Postby Ciggy » Wed May 21, 2008 8:02 am

Someone on RAWK said the other day its Gillett that wont sanction the transfers and that he is a sly b@stard, atleast Hicks tell the truth (and gets himself in all sorts of sh.it) because he cant keep his mouth shut.

But this person said Gillett is more dangerous than Hicks :glare:

Just feck off the pair of yers.
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Postby tubby » Wed May 21, 2008 9:09 am

Its all good and well for us wanting for them to :censored: off but the only thing that will make that happen is a massive bid from DIC. Whats the latest from the insiders re DIC?

What happens if we go into next season with only Degen and a few other cheapos as our only signings?
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Postby kazza » Wed May 21, 2008 9:52 am

bavlondon wrote:Its all good and well for us wanting for them to :censored: off but the only thing that will make that happen is a massive bid from DIC. Whats the latest from the insiders re DIC?

What happens if we go into next season with only Degen and a few other cheapos as our only signings?

Then we will here about how rotation is to blame for our lack of success.
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Postby GRAHAM01 » Wed May 21, 2008 9:53 am

bavlondon wrote:Its all good and well for us wanting for them to :censored: off but the only thing that will make that happen is a massive bid from DIC. Whats the latest from the insiders re DIC?

What happens if we go into next season with only Degen and a few other cheapos as our only signings?

another year of wishing and hoping for the gods to bless us??

if we do just end up with a few new odd bods coming in and end up having a season to match this one then i think we can look forward to losing the star players we have now plus are manager, who would surly have to move on to stand a chace of silverware

if on the other hand these 2 numb nuts put a bit of money on the table and we can get a couple of star players we could be looking at a very good season, or infact dic do take over ( imo i don't see this happening until mid season or the end of next i hope im wrong ) then we could get the players we DO need to put together a very strong challange

here is hoping
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Postby sworth26 » Wed May 21, 2008 10:39 am

so fuking tired of it all.
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Postby Effes » Wed May 21, 2008 12:39 pm

sworth26 wrote:so fuking tired of it all.

ditto - Im tired of the whole thing. It's just wearing me down
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Postby tubby » Thu May 22, 2008 9:41 am

Not a single story this morning even on the :censored: sites. I hate this :censored: unsuspecting silence.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Thu May 22, 2008 1:54 pm

bavlondon wrote:Not a single story this morning even on the :censored: sites. I hate this :censored: unsuspecting silence.

Manhattan will avoid all media until the start of EURO 2008.

And during the next season, I will avoid every Manure game on Sky.
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Postby hello_red » Thu May 22, 2008 3:19 pm

I am worried but then again why worry, as Kharkaz said its out of our hands. I have faith in Rafa to buy well with a limited budget as he no longer has to buy on masse to plug holes.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu May 22, 2008 3:52 pm

Year to July 2007

Turnover £134m
loss £20m
writeoff of stadium costs £10m
net debt approx £45m
operating cash flow £40m
net transfer spend in financial year £45m


These are the last accounts BEFORE the restructuring of the loan. The Torres, Babel, Mascherano and Skrtel transfers are not included (neither are most of last seasons sales)

Obviously the loan on Kop holdings and any dividend payments to pay off the interest won't be coming out of profits!!!

£20million loss in a season when we reached a CL FINAL doesn't bode well for being able to pay interest payments of £30million (Presumably the actual CL payments would be in this years accounts 2008/09)

2005 - £119m
2006 - £121m

Balance sheet debt
2005 - £25m
2006 - £17m

Profit/loss
2005 - £7.5m
2006 (£4m) (loss)


I am very surprised that turnover has only risen by around 10%, but again presumably it will not include the huge TV payments rise.

The real information that these accounts reveal is that we are very much a break even club at the moment, small profits - small losses. Once we have to start paying interest rather than including it in restructured loan deals that could soon change for the worse.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 pm

Top notch post by T.Moore on Rawk

Not sure I agree with ALL his conclusions but the effort and detail is first rate.

So 10 months on from the last year end we finally get to see what the state of the clubs finances were at the time of the takeover.  It offers us a mixed bag.  The headline figures make rather poor reading however there are some positives to show from them.  Whether these positives will continue remain to be seen.

Key Figures

                                                2007  2006  % Change
Turnover                                 133,910  119,499  12%
Cost of Sales                             16,417  12,803  28.2%
Admin Expenses                        143,160  117,324  22%
Loss Before Tax                           21,655  4,931  339%
Net External Debt                        43,868  25,617  71.2%
Cashflow from Operating Activites  39,996  22,142  80.6%
Gross Transfer Expenditure            69,972  41,753  67.6%

They make strong reading don't they?  There are reasons behind these set of results.  As you all know 2007 was a difficult year for LFC off the pitch.  It started with the saga over who would buy the club.  And it ended with the saga of who would buy the club.  While in between there was the ray of sunshine that came into all our lives of one Mr Fernando Torres (stop bouncing at the back)

Turnover

This is broken down as thus

                         2007  2006  % Change
Media                52,161  49,753  4.8%
Matchday           38,442  32,654  17.8%
Commercial         41,794  35,559  17.5%
Museum & OSC      1,513  1,533  (1.3%)

As can be seen from above, apart from the Museum & OSC, healthy rises in revenue were enjoyed.  The increased Media comes from the advancement to the Final of the European Cup.  The matchday turnover increased as a result of 2 extra home games in the european cup knock-out stages compared to the previous season.  Commercial increased both as a result of increased bonuses for the final appearance and increased merchandise sales, this was the first year of Adidas supplying the kits/training gear.

Admin Expenses


                                                  2007  2006  % Change
Staff Costs                                   77,589  68,868  12.7%
Amortisation of Players Registrations  31,121  25,231  23.3%
Impairment on Players Registrations     2,005  5,250  (61.8%)
Other Operating Charges                 16,991  14,617  16.24%


As a result of the takeover, and the subsequent redesign of the planned new stadium, a couple of exceptional items went through the clubs accounts.  The first was a complete writeoff of all costs that were capitalised to the balance sheet with regards to the original stadium design and it's associated planning permission.  This came to £10,323,000.  There was also the direct cost of the takeover.  There were professional fees of £2,037,000 incurred aswell as a rather sickening bonus of £564,000 (pre-tax) for Rick Parry.  This meant that the results stated are distorted by £13m.  Had this not taken place the club would have been looking at a loss of approx £8.7m.  Still higher than 2006, but entirely manageable in the short term.

Staff costs have increased because of two reasons.  One is the general increase due to contract renewals during the period.  Players signed on higher contracts than those players departing and also because there is an ongoing legal case on employment taxes and a provision has been made for the potential liabilitiy.  This is an unknown but may be related to either the VAT issues that Newcastle were having with the HMRC or it maybe related to similar issues Arsenal were having with regards to tax status of players and where they are registered.

The amortisation of players registrations increased as a result of increased investment in playing staff, while the impairment charge relates to a writedown of the value of Gabriel Palleta prior to his transfer out of the club.

There was also an amount of £3.8m capitalised to the balance sheet relating to the revised stadium designs.

Net Debt

This increased markedly over the year.  This was a result of the increased levels of capital expenditure in the reporting period.  £54.4m of net capital expenditure occurred while there was only £40m of operating cashflows to pay for it.  The £54.4m is made up of £46.1m outflow for transfer fees and £8.3m of expenditure to purchase fixed assets (likely to relate to land purchases and expenditure on the 2nd set of stadium designs).

There was also an intercompany loan made from Kop Football (Holdings) Limited to LFC.  This was used to repay the loan obtained from David Moores for the purchase of Dirk Kuyt.

After the year end LFC received funds totalling £51.7m to repay existing due borrowings and to provide working capital.  This is likely to be in the form of a loan but it has an advantage of clearing the clubs rather sizeable overdraft (£37.7m).  Kop Football (Holdings) Limited also paid, on behalf of LFC, £1.3m in relation to the new stadium.

There is also upto £35m outstanding on transfer fees to other clubs.  This is predominantly to european clubs and likely relate to the transfers of Torres and Babel.

Contingent Assets/Liabilities

If certain conditions are met the club has potential income of £8.6m and potential expenditure of £7.4m on transfer fees.

Transfer Expenditure

The one area that causes the biggest debate.  Every year we have fans complaining about the amount of money spent on players and every year they get it wrong, massively.  These are the true figures for the last 3 financial years.

(figures in £000s)
Financial Year Ending          2007  2006  2005
Purchases                      69,972  41,753  46,106
Sales                            25,946  16,838  13,162
Net Transfer Activity       44,026  24,915  32,944

Note, 2007's Figures include the Dirk Kuyt transfer which took place in August 2006 and came to approx £10m.

Since the end of the financial year Javier Mascherano Martin Skrtel, Sebastian Leto, Charles Itandje, Emiliano Insua and Damien Plessis have been brought into the club on a permanent basis.  All of this excluding Javier Mascherano resulted in transfer fees payable of £10.9m.  Add in Mascherano at an estimated minimum of £10m gives a gross outlay of £20.9m since the 31 July 2007.  Also Momo Sissoko and Palleta have both left the club, Palleta for £0.5m and Sissoko for a reported £9m.  Leaving net spending at approx £11.4m since 31 July 2007.

The Immediate Future

The immediate future is now difficult to predict, will we be sold again or won't we.  Will the stadium go ahead or not, can the club afford the debt repayments it may be asked to pay?  So many questions so little answers.  There is only a limited area of certainty.

1) The latest Premier League tv deal.  This will increase league media revenues by approx £15m, as a result the club is looking at breaking the £150m turnover mark this current financial year.

2) The increased sponsorship revenue from Carlsberg which adds around £2m a season to existing revenues.

3) The supporter pet hate, increased ticket prices.  These will generate approx £2m to £3m a season to revenues.

4) This financial year there won't be the large £10.3m exceptional writeoff, nor will there be the takeover costs (unless something happens in the next 10 weeks)

These 4 items alone generate a swing of approx £30m in profit, although interest costs and any increased staff costs will not be known for a year.

From midway this latest financial year LFC also took complete control of LFC.tv Limited.  This will double the share of turnover/profit generated from it's activities.


Benchmarking against our rivals

This time I thought I would do a benchmark against our 3 main rivals at the top, Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal.  I do this because this is another area of mass debate, and low knowledge, to beat the Moores/Parry regime.  With this I aim to show how the top 4 compare in the revenue, core costs (player amortisation and wages) and transfer expenditure stakes.

The figures relate to the season 2006/07 and are taken from the published accounts of all 4 clubs.  There is a slight difference in accounting reference dates but I believe these are insignificant.  The figures also relate to footballing activity only (arsenal have a property development going on at present, chelsea have the hotel etc)

(in £000s unless stated)
                                                  Liverpool  Manchester United  Chelsea  Arsenal
Turnover                                        133,910     210,081           177,109  176,507
Media                                              52,161       61,484           Not Avail  44,312
Matchday                                         38,442       92,562           Not Avail  90,613
Commercial                                       41,794       56,035           Not Avail  41,582
Amortisation of Player Registrations       33,126       24,252           69,968    18,782
Staff Wages                                      77,589       91,588         122,779    89,703
Staff Wages as % of Turnover               57.9%        43.6%          69.3%     50.8%
Gross Transfer Expenditure                   69,972       78,998         26,802     17,585
Net Transfer Expenditure                     44,026        61,718           5,202     (1,569)


As you can see matchday revenue is what I consider the most glaring difference between our performance and that of Arsenal and Manchester United (unfortunately Chelsea didn't do a segmental report on turnover).  We are currently in excess of £50m behind in turnover from matchday revenues.  That is a hell of a way to be behind and it is because of one factor.  Anfield.  It is too small and too poorly equiped for corporates to generate the sort of revnues Arsenal and Manchester United make.  It is why a new stadium, from a financial point of view, is a must.  The other areas are relatively insignificant.  The media is down to positions in the league, the higher you are the more money you get. This then feeds through to the tv money received from UEFA.

Our commercial v that of Uniteds stems from an approx £4m difference in kit sponsorhip value and the shirt sponsorship being around £9m below that of Uniteds at the time.

Comparing against Arsenal shows we lack only in matchday revenues, while commercial activity is slightly distorted from Arsenal due to the £3m a year they get for stadium sponsorship that neither us nor Chelsea/Man Utd get.

You will also see that we only trailed Manchester United in both Gross and Net Transfer Expenditure in the financial year.

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Postby NANNY RED » Thu May 22, 2008 11:16 pm

Saint can you break that down for me im not up on all these figures
are we skint or have we got a little bit in the kitty
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri May 23, 2008 12:00 am

We lost £21million on the season but if you take away the exceptional items it wasn't much different than the usual.... little profit, little loss. The main disapointments being this was a period when we reached a CL FINAL and so we should perhaps have expected slightly better than usual results.

Matchday income was the main revelation for me, it really emphasises our need for the new stadium, with both Arsenal and MANCS getting well over double our income from this.

Our transfers havent really changed much over the past three years. Around £30million net once you take the Kuyt transfer into account. (Just about the right level to pay the interest instead :D )

If we have budgeted similarly this year we should have around £15/20million left before we sell anyone. (Taking Mascherano and Skrtel out and adding Sissoko's sale in.)However as the Torres and Babel purchases arn't necessarily included in last years accounts (open to debate) who knows lol.

I think it will be next years figures that will be the real indicator of which direction we are going in, once we see the effect the loan and any dividend we have to pay to service it are included.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Fri May 23, 2008 12:10 am

NANNY RED wrote:Saint can you break that down for me im not up on all these figures
are we skint or have we got a little bit in the kitty

Basically what it's saying nanny ,is what we already know.

1) We need a bigger stadium to compete financially , Arsenal and Man u are earning £50 million a year more than us on matchday revenue aloan .

2) We are way behind on the comercial side of things aswell , As mr hicks would say ,we havent maximised our brand potential ,like the others have . (That's down to parry imo.)

So if we get our @rses into gear and get a new stadium :laugh: and sort out our oversea's markets . WE'll be able to compete.

Now the problem is ,these figures were up to july 07 ,they are not this years figures. They i promise you will be much worse ,because of the intrest to be payed on the loans the yanks have taken out. Hopefully when we see this years figures next year ,we will have new owners and the stadium will be under way and we can start to compete on the field aswell as of it.

Hope that helps abit mate.
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