TAKEOVER COMPLETE - H & G Finally Jibbed!

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Emerald Red » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:50 am

s@int wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Until one of our players comes out publicly and states that there is a problem akin to some of these rumors, then I'll just as safely dismiss them as absolute bollox. There's a lot of drama queens out there adding to all the hysteria.

There were a lot of "drama queens" warning of the problems between Rafa and H&G as well mate , but somehow its managed to become the favourite excuse for the pro-rafa brigade for our failures this season. Like most I don't know whats going on, and like most I will probably never know the truth of what has gone on even when its over. I do find it rather ironic that the very same people that said the problems between Rafa and H&G were a load of rubbish,  are now the loudest in using that very same "rubbish" to defend Rafa.

Just try reading back through this thread mate, its certainly worth a laugh or two, especially when you read what those very same people now write about why we haven't made a title challenge.

I'm certainly not capitulating to any notion that there are no real problems. There clearly are. Be it bust ups between players and manager and the owners, or just flat out Rafa's philosophies. Who knows. I'd just like things to be a little more "official" rather than rumor. It really is starting to get a bit tiring. The sooner we can just concentrate on the football the better. It's much better when the rumors are those relating to players who we may or may not be linked with, rather than the future of our club and manager. It's dragged on far too long now. I'm starting to wish either the Yanks or DIC would just f*ck off and let us get on with it.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:52 am

Richard Branson should buy Liverpool.


That would be ironic.

First we nearly became the property of DIC

Then we'll be owned by Virgin.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:02 am

All these rumours have some truth, even if just the slightest hint of it. There's no smoke without fire as the old saying goes.
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4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby LFC2007 » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:03 am

There often is though.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:26 am

Have they started work on the new stadium yet?
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Postby ConnO'var » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:13 am

Igor Zidane wrote:
Torres 2007 wrote:wheres the actual evidence that DIC are even interested in buying LFC? I mean apart from Tabloid back page stories, amongst other nonsense.

Beleive me, LFC will not change hands twice in 12 months. It's not like selling your second hand TV, selling your stake in the club.

I dont think the yanks should leave either, they have only been here for a short period and have fulfilled much criteria.

Such as:

1. Given Rafa 50 million ish this season alone to buy Torres, Skrtel, Benayoun, Babel. etc.

2. Payed off the clubs 80m debts.

3. Trying to secure funding/ re-finance for the new stadium.
The bill for the new 300/400m stadium was always gonna be a secured loan, and the Americans were never gonna dig that cash out of their owns pockets. Arsenal didnt for the Emirates'

They have a lot on their plate.

Just give it a chance for Hicks and Gillette and see what happens in 2/3 seasons.

Point one , they haven't given rafa apenny , it's all borrowed money .

Point two, they haven't paid off the clubs debts, they have heaped even more debt onto the club.

Point three, We know anyone would have to get aloan to build the new stadium , the point being they specifically said they wouldn't put the debt onto the club . THEY LIED.

We will not have a club in 2/3 season's if these 2 bellends are still the owners. THe burden on the club is too big.

:nod

Point 1: Don't know the clubs finances but looking at the numbers bandied about... seems more than plausible... Agreed.

Point 2: Fact. Could potentially ruin us if mismanaged and an exodus of players occurs. Agreed 100%

Point 3: Fact. They LIED through their teeth. Agreed 100000%

B@stards.

Good post, Igor.
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Postby ConnO'var » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:30 am

s@int wrote:He told me that the deal to take Rafa to Milan is done and dusted. Rafa has been talking to a few Liverpool players about going with him. In particular REINA, ALONSO, Mascherano and Agger. Which is where the story about the dressing room bust up came in.

Rafa has also been accused by Parry of being more interested in getting his £6million pay off than doing the right thing for the club, and of trying to manipulate things so he could leave for his new club with the money as well.

Gerrard and Carra were supposedly fuming when they found out what had been going on and spoke to Moores or Parry, and were told that everything will be sorted out in the next few weeks . This meeting was supposedly a couple of weeks go. So should be anytime now.

I edited some of the points in your post out mate to make reference to the points I wanted to comment on... So apologies in advance as I'm not trying to "selectively" alter your post. Cheers Conn...

**************************

I really hope that this is all B0llocks too..... It's hard to tell what is real and what is not.....

I know one thing for a fact (if all this is true) though..... If the choice came down to Stevie and Carra leaving and Rafa staying...... than in my opinion, its bloody Hobson's choice. The loyalties of both the local lads cannot be questioned and I would choose them without hesitation.

Agree with JBGH..... normally theres no smoke without fire ..... and the rumoured shenenigans and performances on the pitch leads me to believe that it's more likely than not, that there's a god d@mned inferno blazing through the club at the mo....

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Postby Reg » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:05 pm

Ripped from Anfield Road.com

Why was Hicks Jnr in town and in the pub?    Posted on February 25th, 2008 by Anfield Road

Once again the media have found an off-field story related to Liverpool FC with which to fill some column inches and airtime. Thomas O Hicks Jnr, son of Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks, went to a local pub after the game on Saturday and had to leave sooner than he’d have liked. The details of what happened in the pub vary from one so-called “eye-witness” to another, but without some exaggeration it would never make such an interesting story.

The fact that Tommy was there at all should be the focus of the interest, not what may or may not have happened. Why would the co-owners’ son be at the game and then mixing with supporters afterwards if the family really were about to sell up?

The pub he went to was The Sandon; recently home to the first meeting of the Liverpool Supporters’ Union, provisionally called “Sons of Shankly” but likely to become “Spirit of Shankly”. The pub itself has played a key role in Liverpool’s history, indeed in its foundation, as you’ll find if you read any decent history book about the club. It was once owned by John Houlding, the founder of Liverpool FC, was used as dressing rooms for a time and even team photos were often taken there.

Trying to cut through the nonsense surrounding Tommy’s visit, it seems that there were no physical attacks on the owner’s son - despite claims that punches had been thrown in his direction. Tommy was reportedly advised against going into the pub so close to the ground so soon after the game, but with club security staff alongside him felt it was worth the risk.

We know that Gillett wants out. We know that Hicks has first shout in his shares - if he can meet Gillett’s asking price then he can buy them, regardless of who else is in for them.  We also know that DIC are looking to buy into the club. By the middle, maybe the end of next month it’s certain that Gillett will no longer be a co-owner of Liverpool FC. What remains in doubt is just how big Tom Hicks’ share will be, and who - if anyone - he then co-owns it with. Hicks isn’t likely to be bought out in full because he sees potential in the club in the long term that means he’s not looking for a quick sale and a smaller but easier profit like Gillett is. It’s in Hicks interest to buy at least part of Gillett’s share, to make him the majority shareholder. But whether DIC are prepared to be a minority shareholder remains to be seen, and of course there remains the possibility that Hicks would sell part of his own shareholding so that he could reduce the personal liabilities he currently has in the club after the refinancing problems of earlier in the year.

Nobody will know the outcome until the paperwork has been signed and the cheques have been swapped. That’s why we keep hearing different stories. There are the versions that each party want us to hear, and also the versions that each party would like to be true. Hicks was in Dubai last week, as confirmed by numerous sources, and the word that seems to be coming out consistently is that there will be a deal in place by the middle of next month - it could even coincide with the 15th March anniversary of the club’s formation 116 years ago.

And all of the options currently point to the Hicks family remaining a part of the club’s hierarchy for the foreseeable future.

And that is why, almost certainly, Tommy was at the game and then went onto the pub. He knows that the supporters aren’t happy with his father. He also knows a lot more about what Gillett’s role in the events of the last year actually was. Gillett was painted as the good guy through the troubles of the last six months in particular - but was he? It was Gillett that already had business dealings with Jurgen Klinsmann, and although the meeting between both owners and the former Tottenham and Germany player took place at a Hicks holiday residence, Gillett was there. Gillett promised us “Snoogy Doogy”, watched by a stern-faced Tom Hicks just before Athens. Gillett was the man who wanted to be loved, claiming he’d be going into the Kop at some stage to meet the fans, clearly wanting to be a hero, perhaps needing that polish to his ego. Yet he is well-known to be the least wealthy of the pair and was given short shrift by former Aston Villa owner Doug Ellis when showing interest in buying the Birmingham side. Gillett clearly knew that they had not borrowed enough money to increase the manager’s transfer budget, and he also knew that he didn’t have a great deal of cash himself - so why make promises that he can’t keep? Was it Gillett who wanted to see Rafa out last summer, after Rafa’s public hints at a lack of transfer investment had started to change fan perception of the owners? Strong hints have been being made for some time now that Gillett was the one trying to oust Rafa, not Hicks.

The reasons Liverpool fans turned on the owners are more than anything down to lies, or what are perceived as lies, over the last year. Technically speaking, many of the statements made were worded in such a way that there weren’t actually any promises made. But fans are angry because fans listened to the spirit of what was being said, not the actual wording. “Rafa will be supported in the transfer market” means nothing in reality. But to supporters giving their trust to the new owners it meant Rafa would be given at least some extra funds that wouldn’t have been available under the previous owner David Moores. The owners said that they hadn’t put any debt onto the club, and in saying they weren’t like the Glazers they implied that they wouldn’t be doing so at a later date either. They never said there’d be no debt put onto the club, but by saying what they did they left fans believing that this would always be the case.

Added to the many broken promises, or implied promises, were the decisions that upset fans for the way they were done. Rafa’s job was offered to a coach who’d never managed a club, and had actually only ever managed six competitive games. Not only was it a bad choice of replacement, but one who’d been approached for the wrong reasons. The approach was made when Liverpool were unbeaten in the league and as it turned were turning around their bad start in the Champions League. The manager has been ridiculed in public, accused of “pouting” about being told he couldn’t negotiate transfers that would overall cost the club nothing anyway. After recognising the struggles he’d had since losing his assistant Paco Ayesteran, Rafa reportedly asked for a replacement in Sammy Lee. The money saved on Paco’s wages would pay for Lee, but again the story goes that he was blocked.

It wasn’t just decisions undermining the manager that upset the fans. Why unveil a stadium in July to much fanfare, no doubt going to great expense to get planning permission for it, only to neglect to cost it up properly first. Now more money had to be spent on getting revised plans drawn up at the price that should have been in place initially. It was embarrassing, it was worrying, it was easily avoided.

It was one of many mistakes, one of many errors of judgement.

And no doubt the reason Tommy was in the pub was because he and his father intend to stick around, and instead of sitting back in the US and letting the club tick over, it seems maybe they want to learn from those mistakes. There’s even a strong feeling that this could become Tommy’s major personal project. He’s quoted as saying on Saturday, “We realise communication is important but it’s a lot better now. I’d like to live here because Liverpool is a great place.”

Is it possible that he wants to know from the supporters just what it is that his family will need to do to get the fans back onside again? Are they willing to investigate possible ways of doing that?

Nicky Allt, the chairman of the Liverpool Supporters’ Union spoke about the incident in the Sandon. He’d not been there himself but was told later that Tommy had been drinking with just his minders, before a member of the Supporters’ Union asked him some questions, in an amicable manner. “I was quite surprised he went in there,” Nicky told the Post, “He stood at the bar with his two minders and was left alone to begin with, but then he was approached by a member of the Liverpool supporters’ union. He was being asked questions like ‘What’s going on?’, ‘How come the club’s loaded with debt?’, ‘Do Hicks and Gillett speak to each other?’, ‘How can the club be run from Texas?’ Then more people started butting in.”

Reports that seem consistent are that chants of “Get out of our pub” to the tune usually reserved for “We won it five times” were sung and Tommy made an exit before it turned nasty.

Tommy took a chance by going in there, because a lot of people have been upset. By most reliable accounts he wasn’t actually hurt.  A small minority of Liverpool supporters have said it would have been fine if he was hurt. It wouldn’t though, what good would that actually do for the club? Tommy wasn’t at Anfield to pick up his dad’s cowboy boots and a few other personal belongings, they have people to do that kind of thing for them, not to mention quieter days at Anfield than match days. There’s a strong possibility that the Hicks family will remain involved at Anfield - as Hicks Snr himself had said recently, claiming they’d have a more active role in the future. So Tommy was here, perhaps, to test the water and check out just how hostile the natives have become.

Big decisions lie ahead for the people with money, after which Liverpool will have a new ownership structure in place, with or without DIC, with or without Hicks. And then big decisions will lie ahead for Liverpool supporters. We can’t have everything. Whoever owns us will want to make money out of us, and they can do that with a top four finish and even just a run in the group stages of the Champions League. The owners have still done nothing to change things for the better, so there’s still no reason for protests to be stopped or toned down. But if they come to the table, effectively, looking for ways to win back some support, is it right to turn them down flat? If we do that, they’ll retreat to the US and run us from a distance, taking what they can from us with no interest in silverware or honours. The top four and the Champions League run will do. Likewise we can never again open ourselves up to accepting them at their word. This applies to Hicks, DIC, a combination of the two or a combination of one or both and others. Bridges will need to be built.

Honesty and actions are what we need from the new ownership structure.  No more broken promises, just honesty. Honesty about what will be done. And the actions to prove it.
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Postby maguskwt » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:07 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:I do find it rather ironic that the very same people that said the problems between Rafa and H&G were a load of rubbish,  are now the loudest in using that very same "rubbish" to defend Rafa.

And if there's any truth in the rumours this time Saint, the same thing will happen again. While you are posting "laughable" stories, are listening to WUM's and the like at the moment, it's amazing how these things which are currently laughable can suddenly become the accepted gospel.

I mean, "how the feck are we supposed to launch a title challenge while the owners are talking to Klinnsmann in America" (although we can of course launch a Champions league challenge under the same circumstances) could easily become "how the feck are we supposed to launch a title challenge while the captain and vice captain are trying to get a move". Don't shoot the messenger is an old adage which needs to be remembered, as is the fact that Saint is hardly the type of bloke to spam the forum with loads of sh!t, that's my job (thought I'd get that in before somebody else did  :D ).

If the rumours which refer to the discontent of Gerrard and Carragher have any truth in them, it will provide an interesting talking point come the end of the season. If they were both to ask for a move, would people take the "well they can feck off, we only want players who want to wear the shirt" route or would they look at the reasoning behind the moves?

For my part I don't think it will come to that. I've long suspected that a significant portion of the squad is split from the managers philosophy and effectively "lost", but I wouldn't have thought it will manifest itself into Gerrard probably and Carragher definately asking for a move. More likely I suspect is that they'll continue to do the best they can under the cuircumstances and wait to see what happens.

It is the perogative of every supporter of LFC to take all unsubstantiated stories with a huge pinch of salt, we have, after all been victims of one of the biggest media lies in history. So if some people would rather wait and see if any truth lies behind the headline, its hardly ironic to later respond to the story and its rammifications when for once its proven right. Wheres the irony in using the truth to explain our current situation?

that's just exactly what I meant... ... spot on mate spot on...  :bowdown
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Postby Reg » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:22 pm

We all seem to be getting extremely comfortable with the idea that G&H are on the way out, but I´m not so sure Hicks actually wants or needs to bale out. DIC clearly want to buy the whole club and I fear that only 50% is for sale hence the delay in any announcement and the fact that Newcastle see the opportunity to open negotiations.

Reckons this could drag on for some time yet.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:26 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:I do find it rather ironic that the very same people that said the problems between Rafa and H&G were a load of rubbish,  are now the loudest in using that very same "rubbish" to defend Rafa.

And if there's any truth in the rumours this time Saint, the same thing will happen again. While you are posting "laughable" stories, are listening to WUM's and the like at the moment, it's amazing how these things which are currently laughable can suddenly become the accepted gospel.

I mean, "how the feck are we supposed to launch a title challenge while the owners are talking to Klinnsmann in America" (although we can of course launch a Champions league challenge under the same circumstances) could easily become "how the feck are we supposed to launch a title challenge while the captain and vice captain are trying to get a move". Don't shoot the messenger is an old adage which needs to be remembered, as is the fact that Saint is hardly the type of bloke to spam the forum with loads of sh!t, that's my job (thought I'd get that in before somebody else did  :D ).

If the rumours which refer to the discontent of Gerrard and Carragher have any truth in them, it will provide an interesting talking point come the end of the season. If they were both to ask for a move, would people take the "well they can feck off, we only want players who want to wear the shirt" route or would they look at the reasoning behind the moves?

For my part I don't think it will come to that. I've long suspected that a significant portion of the squad is split from the managers philosophy and effectively "lost", but I wouldn't have thought it will manifest itself into Gerrard probably and Carragher definately asking for a move. More likely I suspect is that they'll continue to do the best they can under the cuircumstances and wait to see what happens.

It is the perogative of every supporter of LFC to take all unsubstantiated stories with a huge pinch of salt, we have, after all been victims of one of the biggest media lies in history. So if some people would rather wait and see if any truth lies behind the headline, its hardly ironic to later respond to the story and its rammifications when for once its proven right. Wheres the irony in using the truth to explain our current situation?

There is a big difference between "waiting and seeing" and what some people seem to do with every rumour,  calling it rubbish AS SOON AS IT IS POSTED without any attempt to verify if there is any truth in it.

To vilify the posters and their posts, and then later to use those very same rumours ,once "proven" correct isn't just ironic its pathetic.

"Ciggy stop chatting pure sh it  plz." is not waiting and seeing, calling people who post rumours or rejecting their information as rubbish out of hand when most have posted because they are worried or to share information , then later using the same information as a defence for our poor season is not hypocritical?

Believe what you will, but when WUM'S ridicule a post or a poster, and later use those very same points to defend our season I think its pathetic myself.

Wheres the irony in using the truth to explain our current situation?


The irony is neither you nor I know what the truth is , all that has changed is the perceived view of a particular rumour has changed because Hicks made a statement. I don't know what was actually said between Hicks and Rafa - DO YOU ?
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Postby Sabre » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:32 pm

S@int, when you copy and paste something you have no responsability about that, it's not your text, it's something that a journo has written. I don't know why you take offence if something you copy and paste is treated as rubbish, you just brought it.

The ones to be asked to verify the sources must be the journos, and they write a lot of things, problems in the dressroom, players leaving, and a lot of shít.

That's why the statement of Hicks made so much harm, after doing an unbelievable move now it makes more believable a lot of things written. People consider accepted gospel what before was a rumour precisely in the moment an official source confirms so, until then it's normal it's considered one of the many things that are written about Liverpool, which are a lot.
Last edited by Sabre on Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:32 pm

Reg wrote:We all seem to be getting extremely comfortable with the idea that G&H are on the way out, but I´m not so sure Hicks actually wants or needs to bale out. DIC clearly want to buy the whole club and I fear that only 50% is for sale hence the delay in any announcement and the fact that Newcastle see the opportunity to open negotiations.

Reckons this could drag on for some time yet.

Good ole Reg, being optimistic  :D

I think if DIC want to buy into Newcastle, we should run a million miles away from them. Anybody who wants to buy a share in Newcastle, can't have great buisness sense.
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4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:43 pm

Sabre wrote:S@int, when you copy and paste something you have no responsability about that, it's not your text, it's something that a journo has written. I don't know why you take offence if something you copy and paste is treated as rubbish, you just brought it.

The ones to be asked to verify the sources must be the journos, and they write a lot of things, problems in the dressroom, players leaving, and a lot of shít.

That's why the statement of Hicks made so much harm, after doing an unbelievable move now it makes more believable a lot of things written. People consider accepted gospel what before was a rumour precisely in the moment an official source confirms so, until then it's normal it's considered one of the many things that are written about Liverpool, which are a lot.

I usually try to ignore WUM'S certainly this particular one, but maybe I was just sick of it. I know I shouldn't have reacted but then again we all do things at times we shouldn't.
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Postby JohnBull » Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:47 pm

Tom Jnr was in The Sandon after the match, with four suited and booted minders. He made it obvious that he wanted to answer any questions but never got the chance because the minders did what they're paid for and took him away when the "banter" became a bit on top.
Could have just been a PR spin job but you've got to give him the "Big Balls" award. Pity he didn't get the chance to talk to the interested people there.
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