Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

We didn't qualify to the Champions league in Houllier's first season did we?

[Stu.Murph]

I was going to reply to him myself and pick the same holes in hisarguement only go into alot more detail but couldn't be bothered due to a lack of understanding and the "everythings rosey" brigade.

You're right, mate, everything is not rosey.  But nor is everything sh!te either.  We're a good side that could be better.  I've faith that Rafa's the man to take us to the next level, though.

Last season we were miles better in every department.

Everythings not "shite". No-one ever said it was. The fact is though this side should not be where it is after last season. Had we been third and in and around the same points total due to one or two things and a similar standard of football you wouldn't hear a whisper of complaint. But the fact is after £30,000,000 last summer we've took two steps backwards.

Benitez deserves a chance, but my patience is starting to wear thin. Next season will be his fourth year. His defining one. Simple as that.

[Stu.Murph]

We didn't qualify to the Champions league in Houllier's first season did we?

We finished 4th. The champions league places went as far down as third.

[Stu.Murph]

You can continue to pick holes in Rafa for as long as you like, the real Liverpool fans who attend games and know the players are acutely aware of how difficult it will be to breakthrough to the top of the league but they share the belief that under the current manager it will happen. Ideally we would win the title every seaon but if the development takes two more seasons until we achieve it, I would rather be patient, supportive and constructive rather than oust the manager and wait another decade.

My criticism is constructive, analytical and in context, yours is quite the opposite, 'comparing apples with bananas' - real constructive and analytical that one!!!

So in your opinion what makes a real Liverpool fan?

Someone who sits there and nods their head in agreement with everything Rafa does? Someone who sits there and praises the signings of Gonzalez or Josemi?

Someone who says "in Rafa we trust"?

Doddy, you're a real Liverpool fan in that case lad...



Blurt.

[redtrader74]

You can continue to pick holes in Rafa for as long as you like, the real Liverpool fans who attend games and know the players are acutely aware of how difficult it will be to breakthrough to the top of the league but they share the belief that under the current manager it will happen. Ideally we would win the title every seaon but if the development takes two more seasons until we achieve it, I would rather be patient, supportive and constructive rather than oust the manager and wait another decade.

My criticism is constructive, analytical and in context, yours is quite the opposite, 'comparing apples with bananas' - real constructive and analytical that one!!!

So in your opinion what makes a real Liverpool fan?

Someone who sits there and nods their head in agreement with everything Rafa does? Someone who sits there and praises the signings of Gonzalez or Josemi?

Someone who says "in Rafa we trust"?

Doddy, you're a real Liverpool fan in that case lad...



Blurt.

Stu, 'IN RAFA WE TRUST',
stop criticising for the sake of it, all your points can be made for every manager.

[Sabre]

If I was an opportunist, I'd defend Rafa now.

But I already did.

[redtrader74]

We didn't qualify to the Champions league in Houllier's first season did we?

We finished 4th. The champions league places went as far down as third.

So we did not qualify for champions league is the answer

[LFC2007]

In reply to your post which was directed specifically at me Stu.Murph......

Firstly I find it very sad to hear things from supposed real Liverpool fans like 'I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds'
It's pathetic, you get yourself so worked up when I have actually made my points and substantiated them in an accurate way.

My post was not specifically directed at you, I mentioned your quote as typical of what the people write on this forum, there were others however.

Hence I never proclaimed to know your 'background, opinions and judgement', I was commenting on the topic and the content of that topic, not your personal credentials.

Likewise you made another assumption here: 'You have also no idea which professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily'. I never asked about your personal credentials, never spoke about you personally nor did I intend to. I commented on the content of your post and other posts, in which I responded fairly by substantiating my points.

Again you make more assumptions in your post ' you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out'
Please tell me exactly where in my post did I state this or infer this, I gave a substantiated arugment e.g. You complain about the money Benitez has wasted, Ferguson took four years to get it right and was the biggest spender in the division at the time. The league today is far tougher than it was in 1990 and when you consider that Chelsea have had an extra 100m+ to spend on players that is the difference between going out and getting a Simao to getting Jermaine Pennant. 

The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'. He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.
I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.

You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can;t make diamonds out of ' - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player.He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that.

You think that Sissoko has effectively plateaud at age 22 (bar minor improvements) and will never learn to 'pass a ball'. I would bet you every penny I have that he will be world class, and he will be a key player for us in the future.

Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable. My point therefore was that Benitez did well to play him, to use him significantly in a champions league winning side and thus improve his value. Rumours of £8m do not constitute a bid of £8m, you are speculating as to what we could have got for him. We got a concrete offer of £6.5m from Villa when they had the money - David O'leary has said he did not have the money the season before, and there was managerial uncertainty at Valencia (another purportedly interested club) therefore to suggest we lost potential money on him is unfounded.

I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.

You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.

If you compare the wasted money on Juan sebastian Veron a £30m player, then I think it puts this into persepective. Benitez has made a few poor signings but, they were low value signings for example players like josemi and gonzales. You forget that Man utd and chelsea have lost money on players, players of significantly more value than Liverpools.

You stated ealrier that Benitez had 'missed out' on players such as 'Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard'. I think every signing benitez has made in thos positions has been significantly better than the aforementioned with the exception of matthew taylor. Agger has been exceptional at adapting to centre back at such an early age, he clearly has the quality and I would wager you that he will be a fixture in years to come. Anelka, has a track record at Arsenal, Real Madrid, PSG and Man city of not having a burning desire to play. He couldn;t cut it at Real Madrid a player that cost £23m pounds, nor could he cut it at PSG or Fenherbace. Woodgate is a talented player but he is incredibly injury prone, more so than any player over the ast two years. Therefore to pay £7m plus is a big risk for a player who's future is uncertain due to perpetual injury.

Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.

Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it.

I am sorry mate but you have substantiated nothing, zilch, nada in your VERY long and winding post.

“The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'.”

And the club will go nowhere with people like you who wear rose-coloured spectacles and can’t possibly fathom the distinction between mediocrity and where this club is headed.

“He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.”

Whoopdy farkin do! We came 3rd last season, lets break out the champagne and celebrate such a momentous occasion. Oh wait he won 2 titles for Valencia so that means……wait what does it mean to a LIVERPOOL fan, absolutely nothing! His true ‘greatness’ will be measured on winning LIVERPOOL the English title, not how many cups he won for Valencia!

“I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.”

And that’s what I keep saying, he’d better deliver because if he can’t then the rose coloured spectacles have to come off! But I know there will be people on here who will still try to defend in the indefensible and will probably come up on 101different excuses why we came 3rd or 4th next season, rather then pin any blame on the manager.

“You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can’t make diamonds out of - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player. He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that. ”

Sissoko is not but saying he is world class is farkin laughable, get a clue son. Zidane reaching a world class status when he was 25, are you serious! Zidane could put passes together in his sleep when he was a teenager, Sissoko still can’t do this at the staggering age of 22.  Its admirable that you see him as a combative player, but he is only that and WILL only be that, if you expect him to turn into Viera or someone of that mould you are seriously deluded and in my eyes aren’t fit on commenting on anything football related. The problem is that he is so one-dimensional sooner or later we will have players who can do the same thing as him but can also actually pass, shoot and attack, which he hasn’t shown any signs of. Sissoko is doomed to be our 4th string center midfielder and will not become a success unless we play teams like Barcelona week in, week out, unfortunately we don’t and calling him up against the minor teams will eventually be his downfall, mark my words. Anything else you have stated such as the “poor black man in England” excuse is just a waffle and is unproductive on your behalf.

“Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable."

This is where your main argument falls to pieces son. You clearly state that Baros lacked basic attributes such as player awareness and plateau-ed out? How old was Baros when you claim these things? Could he have been at the ‘ripe’ old age of 22-23 when he delivered these mediocre performances? This clearly reflects what I am saying, YOU CAN STILL HAVE YOUNG PLAYERS AND SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY TRULY ARE – THAT THEY AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH. Baros showed his ineptitude in a number of categories, Sissoko is exactly the same! Saying that Sissoko will get better in his weak areas is like saying Baros will get better in his, you have seen that Baros couldn’t why can’t you see that Sissoko won’t either? I agree with you Baros was inconsistent and not good enough for Liverpool at a ‘young’ age the same thing can be said about Sissoko he is just not good enough for our team, I don’t care if he is adapting, is young or inexperienced, he can’t do the simple things and in the end that it was really matters.

“I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.”

Kuyt is a squad player, yes he is good at driving the attack, linking up play and for his awareness, but he lacks the thing that separates him from the likes of Owen, Rush, Fowler, THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT A GOAL MACHINE. Call me crazy but forwards are judged at the end of the day for one thing, and one thing only, for putting the ball in the back of the net! Kuyt hasn’t shown any signs of being a goal machine for the upcoming seasons, yes he tries hard, but in the cut-throat business of winning a Premiership title, this isn’t good enough. As for you argument of finding the right mix of players, what are you saying that Benitez needs to find the right players so Kuyt can actually play and score more goals! WTF? You are relying on other players to make him look good, I’m not even going to bother arguing that………….

“You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.”

Benitez has wasted money, regardless of the fact he spent nothing on them (Zenden) but still paid for their salary he HAS wasted our money and time. The only players that have improved the team dramatically are Alonso and Reina end of. Most of the players he has bought in just haven’t been good enough and unlike the failing argument that he is genius and can do no wrong, he has made a lot of mistakes. Every other player he has bought has been average to good (at best). Make what you want of his miserly budget, he has still had money to buy and in some respects money to buy good players not hand-me-downs. Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt alone have cost us over 30 million pounds! With all that money we could have at least got someone to replace Owen with money to spare for squad strikers the same caliber that we have at the moment.

“Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.”

You are comparing Houllier’s worst signings compared to Benitez’s best signings, comparing Alonso with Cheyrou and Heggem, laughable simply laughable! Why don’t you compare Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heskey to Benitez’s wonder signings of Morientes, Zenden, Josemi, Gonzalez? Or Hyppia, Henchoz, Hamaan, McAllister, Litamanen to Alonso, Reina, Sissoko, Mascherano. You won’t because your ridiculous argument of comparing apples with bananas falls flat on its face!

"Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

No one is constantly barracking for Rafa’s demise you twit, realist fans like myself have taken off the rose coloured spectacles and are starting to see his failings, unlike people like yourself. I have always supported Rafa and will continue to do so, even if we fail tomorrow against Chelsea. But if things don’t turn around next season, these failings that realist fans keep highlighting will come to the fore and I'm sure the “In Rafa we trust” brigade will be scrambling for cover.

"We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it."

Undermining.

Constructive and analytical criticism.

Fine line between the two.

Now go hop along grasshopper, hop along!

Excellent retort. Only 71 posts in over a years and a half?

Hang around and keep 'em coming mate.

A response to your points.

1) His credentials as manager of Valencia are the reason he was brought here, they prove he has the attributes at the highest level. It shows Liverpool fans that this is a guy with top, top credentials and as such should have trust in him.
I was not saying his successes at Valencia are a reason not to hold him accountable at Liverpool - they merely show why we should respect him and give him time to develop the club under new ownership - as yet he has had little time to do so.

2) I did not say we should have blind optimism or blind faith towards Rafael Benitez, it is just a case of being reasonable and putting things in perspective. I remember the unsuccessful days under Sounness and later Evans in the 90's, we have come out of that period and are gradually rebuilding the club. I would draw analagy with how Man Utd were relatively unsuccessful a decade before Ferguson turned up, even then it took him 5 years to build his own side. Mourinho is an exception because he inherited top quality players and was privy to an unlimited transfer budget.

3) Yes, we have had a poor season by our standards and it hurts, but compared to previous league positions under Souness, Evans and Houllier - it is clear that we have made Europe 3 years in a row, won 2 major trophies and have our best players tied to long contracts. The evidence is there, it is a case of building, as I said before, without the funds Man Utd/Chelsea have had it is not going to happen in the space of two/three years. We didn't have the capacity to go and bring in players worth tripple the value of our highest signing like Rooney £27m, Ferdinand £30m, Veron £30m. It is with the help of the new owners who will bring invaluable marketing skills that we may be able to compete on a regular basis in the transfer market.

4) I was not comparing the attributes of Zidane to Sissoko, they have two very different styles of play. I was putting in perspective the time it can take to fully develop into a world class player. He was 24 when he moved to Juventus for £3m - it took him the following two seasons to establish himself as world class. We differ in opinion on the potential of Sissoko - fine, but nobody can categorically say he WILL be this or he WILL NOT be that, we are making subjective opinions and I have expressed my opinion. You seem to have a problem with this concept. To your remark re. 'the poor black man in England', don't you think if you went over to work in Mali it would take some adapting? Again, that was my point - nothing more nothing less.

5) As I explained in my previous post, in my opinion Baros lacked fundamental attributes to become a top player. Sissoko, in my view is different, he has shown last season what he is capable of, that is why I make the distinction in class between the two players. In adddition Baros never came close to player of the season - last year Sissoko was a revelation, as backed up by some of the senior players such as Carragher who thought he was outstanding. I don't know which matches you were watching last season but he has shown he is capable of producing top performances. Reaching a definitive level of consistency at a young age is very difficult, that is why he needs time, he has dipped in form recently but the ability remains. Again - we can agree to disagree, no problem.

6) Kuyt has shown some excellent performances, agreed that he could have scored more - he admits that himself but he has only had one season - you cannot judge prematurely. Owen, Rush and Fowler are natural goalscorers, they are unique. Thierry Henry did not light up the premiership immediately if you recall - I'm not comparing him to Kuyt just showing it takes time sometimes. When I say we lack cutting edge up front I am complicit with the idea that in the summer we need a natural finisher, that doesn't render Kuyt a poor player, he can still play a big part and I believe he will. Regarding the right mix of players, I am saying Kuyt can play a part in the attack when Benitez needs him, different games require different strategies. We can disagree over the utility of Kuyt, I have no problem with that but no-one can categorically state he WILL BE this or he WILL NOT be that - its a  matter of opinion.

7) Regarding Benitez's spending I have explained my view in my previous post. You seem to think your opinion is final, exhibited in your view that only Reina and Alonso have improved the team dramatically 'end of'. In my opinion, Agger, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch, Mascherano and Garcia have also had as big an impact as Alonso and Reina. For example, Crouch has enabled us to hold the ball better in attack and creates for the team, something we lacked with Morientes and Baros. That is a notable improvement which most Liverpool fans can see during Benitez's tenure. He has made some poor signings as well in my view, but, when you consider Man utd spent £30m on Veron alone, that is probably the combined gross equivalent to what Benitez has spent poorly on. Again though - we differ in opinion on who is poor or not. You can only sign what is available at the time in the market with the budget you have. Do you think you are better qualified than Benitez and his experienced backroom staff in identifying what is right for the team and on the budget available? Who else do you sign for £2m when you are desperate for a full back? He would not sign a player if he did not think it was worth it.

8) I was comparing the value of the signings made by Benitez to that of Houllier i.e. the same players were signed for the same money. For example, Diouf: £10m Kuyt: £10m Diao:£5m Sissoko: £5m. To compare the ones you suggested I do...... Diao: £5m, Zenden: Free, Diouf: £10m Morientes:£6.5m ,Cheyrou: £5m Gonzales: £5m.
The quality signings made by both managers I will compare in value and quality....... Hyypia:£3m excellent signing Agger: £6m excellent signing and future replacement for Hyypia, Hamaan: £8m decent signing better with maturity under Benitez, Alonso: £10m top quality young international, Sissoko: £5m excellent prospect proven ability, Mccallister:£? excellent experienced player, Reina:£6m record number of clean sheets but questionable in the air Dudek:£? Champions league winner under Benitez, Decent goalkeeper but too unreliable, Riise:£4m excellent signing, developed under Benitez significantly, Aurelio: Free  decent quality with left foot, injury prone, little chance to prove himself.
Overall I would say that the comparitive signings of the two managers sways in favour of Benitez and that the signings of Benitez have improved with time. Houllier was still signing players like Diouf and Diao - big money signings who were flops, towards the end of his time at the club.

9) Finally, I did not say 'Rafa's Demise' - you 'twit'. I said 'to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic'. That is a fair statement, you are whining perpetually about his performance as manager, he shown his capabilities at the highest level at both Valencia and Liverpool. He is not infalable like you seem to think you are, he is doing his best under the circumstances to revive the success of the past. Like I said, it took Ferguson five years to fully establish a team capable of winning titles. Benitez has had two and a half years and he's already won the Champions league with an incredibly depleted squad, then the FA cup and a record points total in the second season. The third season isn't yet over, but sure it needs to improve in the league, it will come with time. You seem to have a problem in understanding that rebuilding a club takes time and is a process, it doesn't happen overnight.

You can continue to pick holes in Rafa for as long as you like, the real Liverpool fans who attend games and know the players are acutely aware of how difficult it will be to breakthrough to the top of the league but they share the belief that under the current manager it will happen. Ideally we would win the title every seaon but if the development takes two more seasons until we achieve it, I would rather be patient, supportive and constructive rather than oust the manager and wait another decade.

My criticism is constructive, analytical and in context, yours is quite the opposite, 'comparing apples with bananas' - real constructive and analytical that one!!!

Pointless replying as your arguements are completely flawed and void of any consistency or football knowledge.

Compare Houllier and Benitez first 3 full seasons.

You'll see there isn't a great deal of difference with the exception that Houllier actually signed more than 3 players who improved the team in that time.

Tonight says it all Stu, no need for lengthy debate..............

[ItsKarmaInit?]

Send Bellamy back to the Celts..he semed to fit in there and to just give him a season at parkhead wasnt enough...but thanx to him for the work he's put....just he's a bit nowty

[ItsKarmaInit?]

and ps love Rafa but stuck in glasgow without the echo or daily post..i only understand what i see on the tele with mad team selections etc....but the guy gets the job done.....trust your manager...he's got us this far.....twice

[Stu.Murph]

In reply to your post which was directed specifically at me Stu.Murph......

Firstly I find it very sad to hear things from supposed real Liverpool fans like 'I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds'
It's pathetic, you get yourself so worked up when I have actually made my points and substantiated them in an accurate way.

My post was not specifically directed at you, I mentioned your quote as typical of what the people write on this forum, there were others however.

Hence I never proclaimed to know your 'background, opinions and judgement', I was commenting on the topic and the content of that topic, not your personal credentials.

Likewise you made another assumption here: 'You have also no idea which professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily'. I never asked about your personal credentials, never spoke about you personally nor did I intend to. I commented on the content of your post and other posts, in which I responded fairly by substantiating my points.

Again you make more assumptions in your post ' you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out'
Please tell me exactly where in my post did I state this or infer this, I gave a substantiated arugment e.g. You complain about the money Benitez has wasted, Ferguson took four years to get it right and was the biggest spender in the division at the time. The league today is far tougher than it was in 1990 and when you consider that Chelsea have had an extra 100m+ to spend on players that is the difference between going out and getting a Simao to getting Jermaine Pennant. 

The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'. He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.
I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.

You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can;t make diamonds out of ' - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player.He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that.

You think that Sissoko has effectively plateaud at age 22 (bar minor improvements) and will never learn to 'pass a ball'. I would bet you every penny I have that he will be world class, and he will be a key player for us in the future.

Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable. My point therefore was that Benitez did well to play him, to use him significantly in a champions league winning side and thus improve his value. Rumours of £8m do not constitute a bid of £8m, you are speculating as to what we could have got for him. We got a concrete offer of £6.5m from Villa when they had the money - David O'leary has said he did not have the money the season before, and there was managerial uncertainty at Valencia (another purportedly interested club) therefore to suggest we lost potential money on him is unfounded.

I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.

You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.

If you compare the wasted money on Juan sebastian Veron a £30m player, then I think it puts this into persepective. Benitez has made a few poor signings but, they were low value signings for example players like josemi and gonzales. You forget that Man utd and chelsea have lost money on players, players of significantly more value than Liverpools.

You stated ealrier that Benitez had 'missed out' on players such as 'Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard'. I think every signing benitez has made in thos positions has been significantly better than the aforementioned with the exception of matthew taylor. Agger has been exceptional at adapting to centre back at such an early age, he clearly has the quality and I would wager you that he will be a fixture in years to come. Anelka, has a track record at Arsenal, Real Madrid, PSG and Man city of not having a burning desire to play. He couldn;t cut it at Real Madrid a player that cost £23m pounds, nor could he cut it at PSG or Fenherbace. Woodgate is a talented player but he is incredibly injury prone, more so than any player over the ast two years. Therefore to pay £7m plus is a big risk for a player who's future is uncertain due to perpetual injury.

Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.

Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it.

I am sorry mate but you have substantiated nothing, zilch, nada in your VERY long and winding post.

“The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'.”

And the club will go nowhere with people like you who wear rose-coloured spectacles and can’t possibly fathom the distinction between mediocrity and where this club is headed.

“He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.”

Whoopdy farkin do! We came 3rd last season, lets break out the champagne and celebrate such a momentous occasion. Oh wait he won 2 titles for Valencia so that means……wait what does it mean to a LIVERPOOL fan, absolutely nothing! His true ‘greatness’ will be measured on winning LIVERPOOL the English title, not how many cups he won for Valencia!

“I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.”

And that’s what I keep saying, he’d better deliver because if he can’t then the rose coloured spectacles have to come off! But I know there will be people on here who will still try to defend in the indefensible and will probably come up on 101different excuses why we came 3rd or 4th next season, rather then pin any blame on the manager.

“You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can’t make diamonds out of - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player. He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that. ”

Sissoko is not but saying he is world class is farkin laughable, get a clue son. Zidane reaching a world class status when he was 25, are you serious! Zidane could put passes together in his sleep when he was a teenager, Sissoko still can’t do this at the staggering age of 22.  Its admirable that you see him as a combative player, but he is only that and WILL only be that, if you expect him to turn into Viera or someone of that mould you are seriously deluded and in my eyes aren’t fit on commenting on anything football related. The problem is that he is so one-dimensional sooner or later we will have players who can do the same thing as him but can also actually pass, shoot and attack, which he hasn’t shown any signs of. Sissoko is doomed to be our 4th string center midfielder and will not become a success unless we play teams like Barcelona week in, week out, unfortunately we don’t and calling him up against the minor teams will eventually be his downfall, mark my words. Anything else you have stated such as the “poor black man in England” excuse is just a waffle and is unproductive on your behalf.

“Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable."

This is where your main argument falls to pieces son. You clearly state that Baros lacked basic attributes such as player awareness and plateau-ed out? How old was Baros when you claim these things? Could he have been at the ‘ripe’ old age of 22-23 when he delivered these mediocre performances? This clearly reflects what I am saying, YOU CAN STILL HAVE YOUNG PLAYERS AND SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY TRULY ARE – THAT THEY AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH. Baros showed his ineptitude in a number of categories, Sissoko is exactly the same! Saying that Sissoko will get better in his weak areas is like saying Baros will get better in his, you have seen that Baros couldn’t why can’t you see that Sissoko won’t either? I agree with you Baros was inconsistent and not good enough for Liverpool at a ‘young’ age the same thing can be said about Sissoko he is just not good enough for our team, I don’t care if he is adapting, is young or inexperienced, he can’t do the simple things and in the end that it was really matters.

“I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.”

Kuyt is a squad player, yes he is good at driving the attack, linking up play and for his awareness, but he lacks the thing that separates him from the likes of Owen, Rush, Fowler, THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT A GOAL MACHINE. Call me crazy but forwards are judged at the end of the day for one thing, and one thing only, for putting the ball in the back of the net! Kuyt hasn’t shown any signs of being a goal machine for the upcoming seasons, yes he tries hard, but in the cut-throat business of winning a Premiership title, this isn’t good enough. As for you argument of finding the right mix of players, what are you saying that Benitez needs to find the right players so Kuyt can actually play and score more goals! WTF? You are relying on other players to make him look good, I’m not even going to bother arguing that………….

“You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.”

Benitez has wasted money, regardless of the fact he spent nothing on them (Zenden) but still paid for their salary he HAS wasted our money and time. The only players that have improved the team dramatically are Alonso and Reina end of. Most of the players he has bought in just haven’t been good enough and unlike the failing argument that he is genius and can do no wrong, he has made a lot of mistakes. Every other player he has bought has been average to good (at best). Make what you want of his miserly budget, he has still had money to buy and in some respects money to buy good players not hand-me-downs. Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt alone have cost us over 30 million pounds! With all that money we could have at least got someone to replace Owen with money to spare for squad strikers the same caliber that we have at the moment.

“Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.”

You are comparing Houllier’s worst signings compared to Benitez’s best signings, comparing Alonso with Cheyrou and Heggem, laughable simply laughable! Why don’t you compare Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heskey to Benitez’s wonder signings of Morientes, Zenden, Josemi, Gonzalez? Or Hyppia, Henchoz, Hamaan, McAllister, Litamanen to Alonso, Reina, Sissoko, Mascherano. You won’t because your ridiculous argument of comparing apples with bananas falls flat on its face!

"Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

No one is constantly barracking for Rafa’s demise you twit, realist fans like myself have taken off the rose coloured spectacles and are starting to see his failings, unlike people like yourself. I have always supported Rafa and will continue to do so, even if we fail tomorrow against Chelsea. But if things don’t turn around next season, these failings that realist fans keep highlighting will come to the fore and I'm sure the “In Rafa we trust” brigade will be scrambling for cover.

"We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it."

Undermining.

Constructive and analytical criticism.

Fine line between the two.

Now go hop along grasshopper, hop along!

Excellent retort. Only 71 posts in over a years and a half?

Hang around and keep 'em coming mate.

A response to your points.

1) His credentials as manager of Valencia are the reason he was brought here, they prove he has the attributes at the highest level. It shows Liverpool fans that this is a guy with top, top credentials and as such should have trust in him.
I was not saying his successes at Valencia are a reason not to hold him accountable at Liverpool - they merely show why we should respect him and give him time to develop the club under new ownership - as yet he has had little time to do so.

2) I did not say we should have blind optimism or blind faith towards Rafael Benitez, it is just a case of being reasonable and putting things in perspective. I remember the unsuccessful days under Sounness and later Evans in the 90's, we have come out of that period and are gradually rebuilding the club. I would draw analagy with how Man Utd were relatively unsuccessful a decade before Ferguson turned up, even then it took him 5 years to build his own side. Mourinho is an exception because he inherited top quality players and was privy to an unlimited transfer budget.

3) Yes, we have had a poor season by our standards and it hurts, but compared to previous league positions under Souness, Evans and Houllier - it is clear that we have made Europe 3 years in a row, won 2 major trophies and have our best players tied to long contracts. The evidence is there, it is a case of building, as I said before, without the funds Man Utd/Chelsea have had it is not going to happen in the space of two/three years. We didn't have the capacity to go and bring in players worth tripple the value of our highest signing like Rooney £27m, Ferdinand £30m, Veron £30m. It is with the help of the new owners who will bring invaluable marketing skills that we may be able to compete on a regular basis in the transfer market.

4) I was not comparing the attributes of Zidane to Sissoko, they have two very different styles of play. I was putting in perspective the time it can take to fully develop into a world class player. He was 24 when he moved to Juventus for £3m - it took him the following two seasons to establish himself as world class. We differ in opinion on the potential of Sissoko - fine, but nobody can categorically say he WILL be this or he WILL NOT be that, we are making subjective opinions and I have expressed my opinion. You seem to have a problem with this concept. To your remark re. 'the poor black man in England', don't you think if you went over to work in Mali it would take some adapting? Again, that was my point - nothing more nothing less.

5) As I explained in my previous post, in my opinion Baros lacked fundamental attributes to become a top player. Sissoko, in my view is different, he has shown last season what he is capable of, that is why I make the distinction in class between the two players. In adddition Baros never came close to player of the season - last year Sissoko was a revelation, as backed up by some of the senior players such as Carragher who thought he was outstanding. I don't know which matches you were watching last season but he has shown he is capable of producing top performances. Reaching a definitive level of consistency at a young age is very difficult, that is why he needs time, he has dipped in form recently but the ability remains. Again - we can agree to disagree, no problem.

6) Kuyt has shown some excellent performances, agreed that he could have scored more - he admits that himself but he has only had one season - you cannot judge prematurely. Owen, Rush and Fowler are natural goalscorers, they are unique. Thierry Henry did not light up the premiership immediately if you recall - I'm not comparing him to Kuyt just showing it takes time sometimes. When I say we lack cutting edge up front I am complicit with the idea that in the summer we need a natural finisher, that doesn't render Kuyt a poor player, he can still play a big part and I believe he will. Regarding the right mix of players, I am saying Kuyt can play a part in the attack when Benitez needs him, different games require different strategies. We can disagree over the utility of Kuyt, I have no problem with that but no-one can categorically state he WILL BE this or he WILL NOT be that - its a  matter of opinion.

7) Regarding Benitez's spending I have explained my view in my previous post. You seem to think your opinion is final, exhibited in your view that only Reina and Alonso have improved the team dramatically 'end of'. In my opinion, Agger, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch, Mascherano and Garcia have also had as big an impact as Alonso and Reina. For example, Crouch has enabled us to hold the ball better in attack and creates for the team, something we lacked with Morientes and Baros. That is a notable improvement which most Liverpool fans can see during Benitez's tenure. He has made some poor signings as well in my view, but, when you consider Man utd spent £30m on Veron alone, that is probably the combined gross equivalent to what Benitez has spent poorly on. Again though - we differ in opinion on who is poor or not. You can only sign what is available at the time in the market with the budget you have. Do you think you are better qualified than Benitez and his experienced backroom staff in identifying what is right for the team and on the budget available? Who else do you sign for £2m when you are desperate for a full back? He would not sign a player if he did not think it was worth it.

8) I was comparing the value of the signings made by Benitez to that of Houllier i.e. the same players were signed for the same money. For example, Diouf: £10m Kuyt: £10m Diao:£5m Sissoko: £5m. To compare the ones you suggested I do...... Diao: £5m, Zenden: Free, Diouf: £10m Morientes:£6.5m ,Cheyrou: £5m Gonzales: £5m.
The quality signings made by both managers I will compare in value and quality....... Hyypia:£3m excellent signing Agger: £6m excellent signing and future replacement for Hyypia, Hamaan: £8m decent signing better with maturity under Benitez, Alonso: £10m top quality young international, Sissoko: £5m excellent prospect proven ability, Mccallister:£? excellent experienced player, Reina:£6m record number of clean sheets but questionable in the air Dudek:£? Champions league winner under Benitez, Decent goalkeeper but too unreliable, Riise:£4m excellent signing, developed under Benitez significantly, Aurelio: Free  decent quality with left foot, injury prone, little chance to prove himself.
Overall I would say that the comparitive signings of the two managers sways in favour of Benitez and that the signings of Benitez have improved with time. Houllier was still signing players like Diouf and Diao - big money signings who were flops, towards the end of his time at the club.

9) Finally, I did not say 'Rafa's Demise' - you 'twit'. I said 'to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic'. That is a fair statement, you are whining perpetually about his performance as manager, he shown his capabilities at the highest level at both Valencia and Liverpool. He is not infalable like you seem to think you are, he is doing his best under the circumstances to revive the success of the past. Like I said, it took Ferguson five years to fully establish a team capable of winning titles. Benitez has had two and a half years and he's already won the Champions league with an incredibly depleted squad, then the FA cup and a record points total in the second season. The third season isn't yet over, but sure it needs to improve in the league, it will come with time. You seem to have a problem in understanding that rebuilding a club takes time and is a process, it doesn't happen overnight.

You can continue to pick holes in Rafa for as long as you like, the real Liverpool fans who attend games and know the players are acutely aware of how difficult it will be to breakthrough to the top of the league but they share the belief that under the current manager it will happen. Ideally we would win the title every seaon but if the development takes two more seasons until we achieve it, I would rather be patient, supportive and constructive rather than oust the manager and wait another decade.

My criticism is constructive, analytical and in context, yours is quite the opposite, 'comparing apples with bananas' - real constructive and analytical that one!!!

Pointless replying as your arguements are completely flawed and void of any consistency or football knowledge.

Compare Houllier and Benitez first 3 full seasons.

You'll see there isn't a great deal of difference with the exception that Houllier actually signed more than 3 players who improved the team in that time.

Tonight says it all Stu, no need for lengthy debate..............

Yes last night said it all...

You're totally correct. How could I ever doubt Rafa could bring home the league after last night?

Typical rose tinted specs brigade knee jerk reaction.

[Sabre]

Despite I disagree Stu on Rafa and Agger and many things, I agree him often and I respect the fact, that a couple of games do not change his mind. And his opinion is genuine, not taken from an expert in TV -- although he should admit gray is a clueless twát that points out the obvious only.

But sometimes he's too fast to evaluate players aswell, in the other hand!

[LFC2007]

You'll see there isn't a great deal of difference with the exception that Houllier actually signed more than 3 players who improved the team in that time.

Tonight says it all Stu, no need for lengthy debate..............[/quote]
Yes last night said it all...

You're totally correct. How could I ever doubt Rafa could bring home the league after last night?

Typical rose tinted specs brigade knee jerk reaction.

[/quote]
I responded to the comment (your last response):

'Compare Benitez and Houllier's first three seasons'

'You'll see there isn't agreat deal of difference'.

Last night proved my point, that there IS a significant difference, Rafa has achieved two champions league finals in three years - Houllier never came remotely close.

Benitez has achieved European football every season - Houllier was unable to do that.

Our league performances bar last season have been relatively similar to what they were under Houllier, if a little better (exemplified by last season).

Therefore the significant and most impressive improvement are our performances in Europe which in reply to your comment is why Rafa has shown empirical and significant improvement in comparison to the first three seasons under Houllier.

You seem to have a problem in comprehending my argument.

[Stu.Murph]

You'll see there isn't a great deal of difference with the exception that Houllier actually signed more than 3 players who improved the team in that time.

Tonight says it all Stu, no need for lengthy debate..............

Yes last night said it all...

You're totally correct. How could I ever doubt Rafa could bring home the league after last night?

Typical rose tinted specs brigade knee jerk reaction.

[/quote]
I responded to the comment (your last response):

'Compare Benitez and Houllier's first three seasons'

'You'll see there isn't agreat deal of difference'.

Last night proved my point, that there IS a significant difference, Rafa has achieved two champions league finals in three years - Houllier never came remotely close.

Benitez has achieved European football every season - Houllier was unable to do that.

Our league performances bar last season have been relatively similar to what they were under Houllier, if a little better (exemplified by last season).

Therefore the significant and most impressive improvement are our performances in Europe which in reply to your comment is why Rafa has shown empirical and significant improvement in comparison to the first three seasons under Houllier.

You seem to have a problem in comprehending my argument.[/quote]
I just think pathetic arguements like "you don't know more than Benitez"

"you can't possibly say a player is a good or bad player because you aren't as qualified as Benitez".

Buts, ifs and maybe's a little bit boring and tedious.

Sitting on the fence isn't something I do. I learnt the game, I've played the game and I know the game inside out which is exactly the reason I can judge a players ability and potential, which is exactly the reason I understand tactics, ability, potential, youth players and such and such.

I also laugh at people who have the cheek and audacity to not call me a "true fan" because I do not blindly follow the current manager and I can see that his signings aren't of the required quality to win us the league (hence the reason we're 3rd and not first).

I've never for a second doubted Benitez as a coach or tactical expert. I sometimes believes he picks the wrong ones but thats understandable. What I question is his ability to successfully win a premiership title and build a team good enough to do so and remain a consistent threat over a period of time.

Last season we looked to have the potential. This season we look flat and ordinary.

[Stu.Murph]

Correction. At times this season we've looked flat and ordinary.