Liverpool FC Forum

[EddieC]

our attacking options are embarrasing in comparison..

You've hit the nail on the head with that last sentence, which is the point I was making.

Throughout defence & the central midfield positions I don't think there's much in it between us & Manure. The difference is their wingers, and one striker, Rooney. Personally I wouldn't rate Saha as better than Crouch or Kuyt, but that's a matter of opinion.

The initial point I made was that if we can get ourselves two quality wingers and a class striker I personally don't feel we would have a squad any worse than the Manure one that looks set to win the title this season.

[EddieC]

If you were to pick a side between the two it would look like this.


                      Reina

Neville         Carra       Ferdinand     Heinze


Ronaldo         Gerrard      Alonso/Scholes    Giggs

                  Rooney        Saha


3 Liverpool players (4 at the most). Is it any surprise Man are so far ahead at the minute?

No, if YOU were to pick a side it would look like that 

Anyway, TBH my side would be pretty similar, but the point I was making is this. With the exception of Ronaldo, Giggs & Rooney, would you say there's a GULF in class anywhere else on the pitch?

[LFC2007]

Sissoko will be very good in my opinion - maybe I was a little premature in saying he will be world class but I see all the quality there as well as a real desire to succeed. I think he has a lot to do in terms of his passing game and close control, he doesn't have a classy touch like alonso but he offers many more qualities that Alonso lacks. Nonetheless I would still take that wager. Last season and for parts of this one he has shown unbelievable maturity for a guy who is new to English football. I think the value of a player's desire and love for the club is something people miss out on when considering how far they can go to improve. He values the fact that Benitez has shown the confidence in bringing him here and aspires to repay the faith shown in him.

[RedBlood]

get rid of robbie dudi,ck zenden bellamy(if replacement is there)
give paletta an speedy one more season as they are young and do have potential

[Stu.Murph]

I believe we should be aiming for another level and sell everyone that really isn't good enough. IMHO we need to sell alot more than the ones you've pointed out if we want to win the league:

Mohamed Sissoko -  honestly he isn't good enough Xabi and Mascherano will almost always come before him. Still good get a decent bit of cash if we sell now.
Dirk Kuyt - I like his attitude, he works his lil blonde off but he isn't quality, he isn't what we need. Sell him sooner rather than later else were gonna lose a hell of a lot of money
Craig Bellamy - Good at Blackburn type team not LFC, i like him but i don't think he'll score enough goals to win us the league
Gabriel Paletta - Rubbish God only knows why we bothered
Peter Crouch - Sell him whist he's hot!!! I honestly think he isn't good enough he misses too many, but he is in great form and we could get good money for him, he is our best striker currently but that isn't a good enough reason to keep him, Baros was our best striker at the time so we delayed selling him only for him to play the next season and lose value.
Mark González - Never liked him never will, Kewell, Riise, Fabio and even Zenden Bring more to the team.
Álvaro Arbeloa - good but never going to be great Warnock was far better
Jerzy Dudek - Past it and a muppet
Florent Sinama-Pongolle - fun to watch but never quality
Anthony Le Tallec - Utter rubish
Djibril Cissé - Doesn't get enough credit but plays for himself not LFC

I know for a fact many will dis-agree but we need to take the next step

You're having a laugh aren't you?

Too many people want to make wholesale changes where it's not needed. IMO we have a decent squad, we just need to add a few bits of genuine class to it in the summer, players who can change the game for us. Let's look at Manure's squad, the one that looks certain to win the league now:

1   Van der Sar
2   Neville
3   Evra
4   Heinze       
5   Ferdinand
6   Brown
7   Ronaldo     
8   Rooney
9   Saha
11   Giggs       
13   Park
14   Smith
15   Vidic
16   Carrick
18   Scholes
20   Solskjaer
21   Dong
22   O'Shea
23   Richardson
24   Fletcher
27   Silvestre
29   Kuszczak
32   Cathcart
33   Eagles
34   Shawcross
35   Lee
36   Gray
38   Heaton
42   Barnes


How many of those can you say are better than what we have in our squad now? Cos I'd say only three, Ronaldo, Rooney & Giggs. The fact is unless you're Chelsea, you're never gonna have a squad packed with superstars. A lot of these players people are talking about selling I accept shouldn't be first team regulars, but are still definately good enough to have some involvement in the squad.

One of the other reasons I think Manure have had such a good season is consitency. The only major signing they needed to make in the summer was Carrick. Ok we're still a way off & we need to sign more than one player, but I feel we shouldn't be ringing the changes just for the sake of it. A bit of quality on the left & right, and a world class striker, and I'll be happy. With the following to go:

Cisse
Kewell
Zenden
FSP
Le Tallec
Dudek
Bellamy

With the exception of Bellamy & Zenden, all players who haven't really featured for us anyway.

Eddie come off it lad.

You've gained a bit of respect by posting posts with more than one line in so don't go ruining it by suggesting we have a side capable of challenging Uniteds.

Scholes, Rooney, Neville, Giggs, Evra, Heinze, Vidic, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Saha would walk into our side.

Thats the reason we are where we are mate. Simple as that.

The only players we have that are capable of getting into Uniteds team are Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and Reina.

[Stu.Murph]

In reply to your post which was directed specifically at me Stu.Murph......

Firstly I find it very sad to hear things from supposed real Liverpool fans like 'I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds'
It's pathetic, you get yourself so worked up when I have actually made my points and substantiated them in an accurate way.

My post was not specifically directed at you, I mentioned your quote as typical of what the people write on this forum, there were others however.

Hence I never proclaimed to know your 'background, opinions and judgement', I was commenting on the topic and the content of that topic, not your personal credentials.

Likewise you made another assumption here: 'You have also no idea which professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily'. I never asked about your personal credentials, never spoke about you personally nor did I intend to. I commented on the content of your post and other posts, in which I responded fairly by substantiating my points.

Again you make more assumptions in your post ' you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out'
Please tell me exactly where in my post did I state this or infer this, I gave a substantiated arugment e.g. You complain about the money Benitez has wasted, Ferguson took four years to get it right and was the biggest spender in the division at the time. The league today is far tougher than it was in 1990 and when you consider that Chelsea have had an extra 100m+ to spend on players that is the difference between going out and getting a Simao to getting Jermaine Pennant. 

The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'. He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.
I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.

You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can;t make diamonds out of ' - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player.He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that.

You think that Sissoko has effectively plateaud at age 22 (bar minor improvements) and will never learn to 'pass a ball'. I would bet you every penny I have that he will be world class, and he will be a key player for us in the future.

Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable. My point therefore was that Benitez did well to play him, to use him significantly in a champions league winning side and thus improve his value. Rumours of £8m do not constitute a bid of £8m, you are speculating as to what we could have got for him. We got a concrete offer of £6.5m from Villa when they had the money - David O'leary has said he did not have the money the season before, and there was managerial uncertainty at Valencia (another purportedly interested club) therefore to suggest we lost potential money on him is unfounded.

I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.

You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.

If you compare the wasted money on Juan sebastian Veron a £30m player, then I think it puts this into persepective. Benitez has made a few poor signings but, they were low value signings for example players like josemi and gonzales. You forget that Man utd and chelsea have lost money on players, players of significantly more value than Liverpools.

You stated ealrier that Benitez had 'missed out' on players such as 'Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard'. I think every signing benitez has made in thos positions has been significantly better than the aforementioned with the exception of matthew taylor. Agger has been exceptional at adapting to centre back at such an early age, he clearly has the quality and I would wager you that he will be a fixture in years to come. Anelka, has a track record at Arsenal, Real Madrid, PSG and Man city of not having a burning desire to play. He couldn;t cut it at Real Madrid a player that cost £23m pounds, nor could he cut it at PSG or Fenherbace. Woodgate is a talented player but he is incredibly injury prone, more so than any player over the ast two years. Therefore to pay £7m plus is a big risk for a player who's future is uncertain due to perpetual injury.

Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.

Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it.

Will reply later when I have time.

An awful post that looks at things through rose tinted specticles, ignores the facts and generally talks .

[LFC2007]

I have displayed the facts clearly for everyone to see. It's a shame you need to use abusive language to convey your opinions.

[Sabre]

Stu, I received a complaint for your behaviour. That's not breaking news is it?

Please take it easy on newbies, this one might be right or wrong like everyone of us, but he's not a bad poster with one-liners, and he's trying to explain his points.

LFC2007, you're right about Stu, he has that warnings for a reason, but don't take too seriously his language:

By "will replay later when I have time" he means "well at least an explained post that deserves to be answered"

By "you talk shíte" he means "I disagree". Keep your opinions up LFC2007, and welcome, this is the first time I read you.

[EddieC]

Eddie come off it lad.

You've gained a bit of respect by posting posts with more than one line in so don't go ruining it by suggesting we have a side capable of challenging Uniteds.

Scholes, Rooney, Neville, Giggs, Evra, Heinze, Vidic, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Saha would walk into our side.

Thats the reason we are where we are mate. Simple as that.

The only players we have that are capable of getting into Uniteds team are Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and Reina.

I wasn't suggesting our side matches Manures, far from it. Just purely suggesting that with the exception of on the wings and with Rooney (despite what others think I don't really rate their other strikers as any better than ours) there isn't really a gulf in class.

I'm not saying it would be easy (nothing worthwhile ever is) but if we could find ourselves a Ronaldo, a Rooney & a Giggs I feel our squad would be just as good as theirs. Defensively & in the centre of midfield I am very happy with our current setup (possibly need at a new left back, but not a priority), and up front I am happy with Crouch & Kuyt for supporting roles. All I feel we are missing is someone to be the main man up front, and a couple of wide players who are gonna provide a real attacking threat & some ammo for the strikers.

[LFC2007]

I would agree with what you say there Eddie, we lack cutting edge up front and strength in wide positions.

[account deleted by request]

Eddie come off it lad.

You've gained a bit of respect by posting posts with more than one line in so don't go ruining it by suggesting we have a side capable of challenging Uniteds.

Scholes, Rooney, Neville, Giggs, Evra, Heinze, Vidic, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Saha would walk into our side.

Thats the reason we are where we are mate. Simple as that.

The only players we have that are capable of getting into Uniteds team are Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and Reina.

I wasn't suggesting our side matches Manures, far from it. Just purely suggesting that with the exception of on the wings and with Rooney (despite what others think I don't really rate their other strikers as any better than ours) there isn't really a gulf in class.

I'm not saying it would be easy (nothing worthwhile ever is) but if we could find ourselves a Ronaldo, a Rooney & a Giggs I feel our squad would be just as good as theirs. Defensively & in the centre of midfield I am very happy with our current setup (possibly need at a new left back, but not a priority), and up front I am happy with Crouch & Kuyt for supporting roles. All I feel we are missing is someone to be the main man up front, and a couple of wide players who are gonna provide a real attacking threat & some ammo for the strikers.

I agree with you Eddie , the problem as I see it is the players that could enable us to make that big step up are either unavailable or would cost so much money that Rafa wouldn't go for them.

Owen, Tevez, Pederson are probably 3 we could get. Kaka, Villa , Robben are probably the three we need but cant get.

[LFC2007]

I'm not convinced we could get Owen, although I think he's good enough I think Newcastle would be incredibly reluctant to sell. He's also settled into a new life in the North East so I think it would take something special for us to sign him. I think Pedersen is a decent player but lacks physical presence and defensive awareness despite the quality he possesses with his left foot. There's always speculation about top players moving on, but I think it's important to note that the players Benitez signs tend to be ones with something big to prove, ones who are not necessarily well known - agger and sissoko being examples of this.

[EddieC]

Eddie come off it lad.

You've gained a bit of respect by posting posts with more than one line in so don't go ruining it by suggesting we have a side capable of challenging Uniteds.

Scholes, Rooney, Neville, Giggs, Evra, Heinze, Vidic, Ferdinand, Ronaldo and Saha would walk into our side.

Thats the reason we are where we are mate. Simple as that.

The only players we have that are capable of getting into Uniteds team are Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher and Reina.

I wasn't suggesting our side matches Manures, far from it. Just purely suggesting that with the exception of on the wings and with Rooney (despite what others think I don't really rate their other strikers as any better than ours) there isn't really a gulf in class.

I'm not saying it would be easy (nothing worthwhile ever is) but if we could find ourselves a Ronaldo, a Rooney & a Giggs I feel our squad would be just as good as theirs. Defensively & in the centre of midfield I am very happy with our current setup (possibly need at a new left back, but not a priority), and up front I am happy with Crouch & Kuyt for supporting roles. All I feel we are missing is someone to be the main man up front, and a couple of wide players who are gonna provide a real attacking threat & some ammo for the strikers.

I agree with you Eddie , the problem as I see it is the players that could enable us to make that big step up are either unavailable or would cost so much money that Rafa wouldn't go for them.

Owen, Tevez, Pederson are probably 3 we could get. Kaka, Villa , Robben are probably the three we need but cant get.

This is what the top managers get paid for. Kaka only cost about £6m (I think) Ronaldo was £12.5m. There are players out there, the key is finding them before they become household names. Who knows, maybe one of the youngsters we've bought might break through, but judging by Rafa's youth policy so far I doubt it.

[tubby]

I think the difference is Man Utd have spent big where it matters, Ok they have bought some clangers like Kleberson but when they needed to spend big they have got their man (Rooney, Ronaldo, Carrick). Not saying Carrick is worth 18Mil but their big signings combined with experienced players like Scholes and Giggs are working a treat and they are on their way to a treble (or double if we can help it).

The bottom line is if we are linked with a big player in the future Rafa has to get them and cant settle for the cheaper option any more.

[EddieC]

I think the difference is Man Utd have spent big where it matters, Ok they have bought some clangers like Kleberson but when they needed to spend big they have got their man (Rooney, Ronaldo, Carrick). Not saying Carrick is worth 18Mil but their big signings combined with experienced players like Scholes and Giggs are working a treat and they are on their way to a treble (or double if we can help it).

The bottom line is if we are linked with a big player in the future Rafa has to get them and cant settle for the cheaper option any more.

I'd agree with that, only difference is before Manure started spending big they had a lot of homegrown talent come through. Now I know nothing about the financial running of a football club, but does the fact that they brought through Giggs, Scholes, the Nevilles, Beckham & Butt, and the fortunes they must have saved in transfer fees have anything to do with the amount of money they were able to spend further down the line?