Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

Typical example being Pennant, likelihood is that he would have gone for alves or Simao if he had the funds. But don't discount the signings he has made just yet, there have been some quality ones in Alonso, Sissoko, Agger, Kuyt, Reina, Mascherano, Crouch hasn't done too bad either considering where he came from. They will all mature and get better gradually, the key for me is adding a few especially talented players to the mix.

[tubby]

I think the difference is Man Utd have spent big where it matters, Ok they have bought some clangers like Kleberson but when they needed to spend big they have got their man (Rooney, Ronaldo, Carrick). Not saying Carrick is worth 18Mil but their big signings combined with experienced players like Scholes and Giggs are working a treat and they are on their way to a treble (or double if we can help it).

The bottom line is if we are linked with a big player in the future Rafa has to get them and cant settle for the cheaper option any more.

I'd agree with that, only difference is before Manure started spending big they had a lot of homegrown talent come through. Now I know nothing about the financial running of a football club, but does the fact that they brought through Giggs, Scholes, the Nevilles, Beckham & Butt, and the fortunes they must have saved in transfer fees have anything to do with the amount of money they were able to spend further down the line?

Yes very true they saved a load in those players but its harder to predict where our next youngster is going to come from.

Thats why we have to be prepared to fork out £20m for a decent player if we have the chance even if they are 18.

Increasingley the youngsters are bought now rathr than bred. We only see perhaps 1 young player a year if that come through and raise some eyebrows in the Premiership.

[account deleted by request]

We have to remember that Chelsea and the Mancs wont stand still either, I would expect the Mancs to sign Hargreaves and a striker in the Summer, Chelsea to sign a CB and a right back at the very least.

[tubby]

Typical example being Pennant, likelihood is that he would have gone for alves or Simao if he had the funds. But don't discount the signings he has made just yet, there have been some quality ones in Alonso, Sissoko, Agger, Kuyt, Reina, Mascherano, Crouch hasn't done too bad either considering where he came from. They will all mature and get better gradually, the key for me is adding a few especially talented players to the mix.

Alonso has so much talent but doesnt show it on a regular basis.

Crouch has done himself proud this year and scored some fantasic goals and perhaps could play a part should a big striker come in.

I think Mascherano could turn out to be sale of the century if he gets to full fitness consiering how much Utd may fork out for Hargreaves.

I dot know which top striker we need to sign but we definatley need more talent on both wings. Pennant I think is backup at best and although at times plays well is not consistent enough and his comments about being satisfied with his performaces of late make me wonder if he has as much ambition as Rafa thought.

[metalhead]

Kaka, Villa , Robben are probably the three we need but cant get.

sources from the electrician who works in the club says we made a deal to sign the 3 of them 

[metalhead]

Alonso has so much talent but doesnt show it on a regular basis.

He doesn't? care to explain?

[Redman in wales]

Kaka, Villa , Robben are probably the three we need but cant get.

sources from the electrician who works in the club says we made a deal to sign the 3 of them 

was the electrians first name 'welsh' by any

[eds]

In reply to your post which was directed specifically at me Stu.Murph......

Firstly I find it very sad to hear things from supposed real Liverpool fans like 'I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds'
It's pathetic, you get yourself so worked up when I have actually made my points and substantiated them in an accurate way.

My post was not specifically directed at you, I mentioned your quote as typical of what the people write on this forum, there were others however.

Hence I never proclaimed to know your 'background, opinions and judgement', I was commenting on the topic and the content of that topic, not your personal credentials.

Likewise you made another assumption here: 'You have also no idea which professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily'. I never asked about your personal credentials, never spoke about you personally nor did I intend to. I commented on the content of your post and other posts, in which I responded fairly by substantiating my points.

Again you make more assumptions in your post ' you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out'
Please tell me exactly where in my post did I state this or infer this, I gave a substantiated arugment e.g. You complain about the money Benitez has wasted, Ferguson took four years to get it right and was the biggest spender in the division at the time. The league today is far tougher than it was in 1990 and when you consider that Chelsea have had an extra 100m+ to spend on players that is the difference between going out and getting a Simao to getting Jermaine Pennant. 

The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'. He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.
I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.

You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can;t make diamonds out of ' - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player.He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that.

You think that Sissoko has effectively plateaud at age 22 (bar minor improvements) and will never learn to 'pass a ball'. I would bet you every penny I have that he will be world class, and he will be a key player for us in the future.

Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable. My point therefore was that Benitez did well to play him, to use him significantly in a champions league winning side and thus improve his value. Rumours of £8m do not constitute a bid of £8m, you are speculating as to what we could have got for him. We got a concrete offer of £6.5m from Villa when they had the money - David O'leary has said he did not have the money the season before, and there was managerial uncertainty at Valencia (another purportedly interested club) therefore to suggest we lost potential money on him is unfounded.

I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.

You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.

If you compare the wasted money on Juan sebastian Veron a £30m player, then I think it puts this into persepective. Benitez has made a few poor signings but, they were low value signings for example players like josemi and gonzales. You forget that Man utd and chelsea have lost money on players, players of significantly more value than Liverpools.

You stated ealrier that Benitez had 'missed out' on players such as 'Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard'. I think every signing benitez has made in thos positions has been significantly better than the aforementioned with the exception of matthew taylor. Agger has been exceptional at adapting to centre back at such an early age, he clearly has the quality and I would wager you that he will be a fixture in years to come. Anelka, has a track record at Arsenal, Real Madrid, PSG and Man city of not having a burning desire to play. He couldn;t cut it at Real Madrid a player that cost £23m pounds, nor could he cut it at PSG or Fenherbace. Woodgate is a talented player but he is incredibly injury prone, more so than any player over the ast two years. Therefore to pay £7m plus is a big risk for a player who's future is uncertain due to perpetual injury.

Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.

Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it.

I am sorry mate but you have substantiated nothing, zilch, nada in your VERY long and winding post.

“The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'.”

And the club will go nowhere with people like you who wear rose-coloured spectacles and can’t possibly fathom the distinction between mediocrity and where this club is headed.

“He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.”

Whoopdy farkin do! We came 3rd last season, lets break out the champagne and celebrate such a momentous occasion. Oh wait he won 2 titles for Valencia so that means……wait what does it mean to a LIVERPOOL fan, absolutely nothing! His true ‘greatness’ will be measured on winning LIVERPOOL the English title, not how many cups he won for Valencia!

“I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.”

And that’s what I keep saying, he’d better deliver because if he can’t then the rose coloured spectacles have to come off! But I know there will be people on here who will still try to defend in the indefensible and will probably come up on 101different excuses why we came 3rd or 4th next season, rather then pin any blame on the manager.

“You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can’t make diamonds out of - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player. He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that. ”

Sissoko is not but saying he is world class is farkin laughable, get a clue son. Zidane reaching a world class status when he was 25, are you serious! Zidane could put passes together in his sleep when he was a teenager, Sissoko still can’t do this at the staggering age of 22.  Its admirable that you see him as a combative player, but he is only that and WILL only be that, if you expect him to turn into Viera or someone of that mould you are seriously deluded and in my eyes aren’t fit on commenting on anything football related. The problem is that he is so one-dimensional sooner or later we will have players who can do the same thing as him but can also actually pass, shoot and attack, which he hasn’t shown any signs of. Sissoko is doomed to be our 4th string center midfielder and will not become a success unless we play teams like Barcelona week in, week out, unfortunately we don’t and calling him up against the minor teams will eventually be his downfall, mark my words. Anything else you have stated such as the “poor black man in England” excuse is just a waffle and is unproductive on your behalf.

“Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable."

This is where your main argument falls to pieces son. You clearly state that Baros lacked basic attributes such as player awareness and plateau-ed out? How old was Baros when you claim these things? Could he have been at the ‘ripe’ old age of 22-23 when he delivered these mediocre performances? This clearly reflects what I am saying, YOU CAN STILL HAVE YOUNG PLAYERS AND SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY TRULY ARE – THAT THEY AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH. Baros showed his ineptitude in a number of categories, Sissoko is exactly the same! Saying that Sissoko will get better in his weak areas is like saying Baros will get better in his, you have seen that Baros couldn’t why can’t you see that Sissoko won’t either? I agree with you Baros was inconsistent and not good enough for Liverpool at a ‘young’ age the same thing can be said about Sissoko he is just not good enough for our team, I don’t care if he is adapting, is young or inexperienced, he can’t do the simple things and in the end that it was really matters.

“I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.”

Kuyt is a squad player, yes he is good at driving the attack, linking up play and for his awareness, but he lacks the thing that separates him from the likes of Owen, Rush, Fowler, THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT A GOAL MACHINE. Call me crazy but forwards are judged at the end of the day for one thing, and one thing only, for putting the ball in the back of the net! Kuyt hasn’t shown any signs of being a goal machine for the upcoming seasons, yes he tries hard, but in the cut-throat business of winning a Premiership title, this isn’t good enough. As for you argument of finding the right mix of players, what are you saying that Benitez needs to find the right players so Kuyt can actually play and score more goals! WTF? You are relying on other players to make him look good, I’m not even going to bother arguing that………….

“You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.”

Benitez has wasted money, regardless of the fact he spent nothing on them (Zenden) but still paid for their salary he HAS wasted our money and time. The only players that have improved the team dramatically are Alonso and Reina end of. Most of the players he has bought in just haven’t been good enough and unlike the failing argument that he is genius and can do no wrong, he has made a lot of mistakes. Every other player he has bought has been average to good (at best). Make what you want of his miserly budget, he has still had money to buy and in some respects money to buy good players not hand-me-downs. Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt alone have cost us over 30 million pounds! With all that money we could have at least got someone to replace Owen with money to spare for squad strikers the same caliber that we have at the moment.

“Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.”

You are comparing Houllier’s worst signings compared to Benitez’s best signings, comparing Alonso with Cheyrou and Heggem, laughable simply laughable! Why don’t you compare Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heskey to Benitez’s wonder signings of Morientes, Zenden, Josemi, Gonzalez? Or Hyppia, Henchoz, Hamaan, McAllister, Litamanen to Alonso, Reina, Sissoko, Mascherano. You won’t because your ridiculous argument of comparing apples with bananas falls flat on its face!

"Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

No one is constantly barracking for Rafa’s demise you twit, realist fans like myself have taken off the rose coloured spectacles and are starting to see his failings, unlike people like yourself. I have always supported Rafa and will continue to do so, even if we fail tomorrow against Chelsea. But if things don’t turn around next season, these failings that realist fans keep highlighting will come to the fore and I'm sure the “In Rafa we trust” brigade will be scrambling for cover.

"We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it."

Undermining.

Constructive and analytical criticism.

Fine line between the two.

Now go hop along grasshopper, hop along!

[Effes]

A very "Stu-esque" post.

I'm well on the fence re. Rafa.

[LFC #1]

In reply to your post which was directed specifically at me Stu.Murph......

Firstly I find it very sad to hear things from supposed real Liverpool fans like 'I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds'
It's pathetic, you get yourself so worked up when I have actually made my points and substantiated them in an accurate way.

My post was not specifically directed at you, I mentioned your quote as typical of what the people write on this forum, there were others however.

Hence I never proclaimed to know your 'background, opinions and judgement', I was commenting on the topic and the content of that topic, not your personal credentials.

Likewise you made another assumption here: 'You have also no idea which professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily'. I never asked about your personal credentials, never spoke about you personally nor did I intend to. I commented on the content of your post and other posts, in which I responded fairly by substantiating my points.

Again you make more assumptions in your post ' you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out'
Please tell me exactly where in my post did I state this or infer this, I gave a substantiated arugment e.g. You complain about the money Benitez has wasted, Ferguson took four years to get it right and was the biggest spender in the division at the time. The league today is far tougher than it was in 1990 and when you consider that Chelsea have had an extra 100m+ to spend on players that is the difference between going out and getting a Simao to getting Jermaine Pennant. 

The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'. He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.
I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.

You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can;t make diamonds out of ' - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player.He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that.

You think that Sissoko has effectively plateaud at age 22 (bar minor improvements) and will never learn to 'pass a ball'. I would bet you every penny I have that he will be world class, and he will be a key player for us in the future.

Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable. My point therefore was that Benitez did well to play him, to use him significantly in a champions league winning side and thus improve his value. Rumours of £8m do not constitute a bid of £8m, you are speculating as to what we could have got for him. We got a concrete offer of £6.5m from Villa when they had the money - David O'leary has said he did not have the money the season before, and there was managerial uncertainty at Valencia (another purportedly interested club) therefore to suggest we lost potential money on him is unfounded.

I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.

You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.

If you compare the wasted money on Juan sebastian Veron a £30m player, then I think it puts this into persepective. Benitez has made a few poor signings but, they were low value signings for example players like josemi and gonzales. You forget that Man utd and chelsea have lost money on players, players of significantly more value than Liverpools.

You stated ealrier that Benitez had 'missed out' on players such as 'Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard'. I think every signing benitez has made in thos positions has been significantly better than the aforementioned with the exception of matthew taylor. Agger has been exceptional at adapting to centre back at such an early age, he clearly has the quality and I would wager you that he will be a fixture in years to come. Anelka, has a track record at Arsenal, Real Madrid, PSG and Man city of not having a burning desire to play. He couldn;t cut it at Real Madrid a player that cost £23m pounds, nor could he cut it at PSG or Fenherbace. Woodgate is a talented player but he is incredibly injury prone, more so than any player over the ast two years. Therefore to pay £7m plus is a big risk for a player who's future is uncertain due to perpetual injury.

Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.

Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it.

I am sorry mate but you have substantiated nothing, zilch, nada in your VERY long and winding post.

“The club will go nowhere if people like you are at Benitez's throat all the time, 'I for one am running out of patience for him'.”

And the club will go nowhere with people like you who wear rose-coloured spectacles and can’t possibly fathom the distinction between mediocrity and where this club is headed.

“He achieved a record points total last season, this season hasn't lived up to expectations but at Valencia he won the title then came fifth, then won the title and the UEFA cup.”

Whoopdy farkin do! We came 3rd last season, lets break out the champagne and celebrate such a momentous occasion. Oh wait he won 2 titles for Valencia so that means……wait what does it mean to a LIVERPOOL fan, absolutely nothing! His true ‘greatness’ will be measured on winning LIVERPOOL the English title, not how many cups he won for Valencia!

“I believe it will be in the summer when he has the first opportunity of spending money comparable to that of Man utd and Chelsea that he will deliver. As yet he hasn't had the opportunity to.”

And that’s what I keep saying, he’d better deliver because if he can’t then the rose coloured spectacles have to come off! But I know there will be people on here who will still try to defend in the indefensible and will probably come up on 101different excuses why we came 3rd or 4th next season, rather then pin any blame on the manager.

“You cannot make the judgement that sissoko is a poor player that will never eradicate the flaws in his game, or that ' you can’t make diamonds out of - he is not . That is exactly what I mean by conjecture and premature opinion making. It took Zidane until he was 25+ to reach a level that was world Class, Sissoko is only 22 and he will improve. I watched his performance in the Charity shield last year and he was outstanding and by far the man of the match - in that game he displayed all his qualities to a tee. He is a young man from Africa trying to do his best in the North West of England, before which he was at Auxerre then Valencia. He does actually have a life, he has had to learn the English culture, the language and adapt to Merseyside all on his own. That takes something, his attributes in terms of ability with the ball can be improved but they are things he can work on, he has the fundamental attributes that are needed to be a combative midfield player. He is a different style of player to what we've got, as Benitez says its about' options' - we don't have anyone who can run for as long as him and be as effective at winning the ball back as he is and has shown. Even Carragher said last season that they believed he was probably the outstanding player of the season,second to Gerrard. He will be at Liverpool for many years to come and will be successful, and I'd wager you for that. ”

Sissoko is not but saying he is world class is farkin laughable, get a clue son. Zidane reaching a world class status when he was 25, are you serious! Zidane could put passes together in his sleep when he was a teenager, Sissoko still can’t do this at the staggering age of 22.  Its admirable that you see him as a combative player, but he is only that and WILL only be that, if you expect him to turn into Viera or someone of that mould you are seriously deluded and in my eyes aren’t fit on commenting on anything football related. The problem is that he is so one-dimensional sooner or later we will have players who can do the same thing as him but can also actually pass, shoot and attack, which he hasn’t shown any signs of. Sissoko is doomed to be our 4th string center midfielder and will not become a success unless we play teams like Barcelona week in, week out, unfortunately we don’t and calling him up against the minor teams will eventually be his downfall, mark my words. Anything else you have stated such as the “poor black man in England” excuse is just a waffle and is unproductive on your behalf.

“Baros however, is a different kettle of fish. He has always lacked basic attributes such as player awareness, his ability in the air and he has plateaud out, Sissoko has shown his ability last season on a consistent basis in the premier league. Baros never did this, he played well but on an inconsistent basis and was unreliable."

This is where your main argument falls to pieces son. You clearly state that Baros lacked basic attributes such as player awareness and plateau-ed out? How old was Baros when you claim these things? Could he have been at the ‘ripe’ old age of 22-23 when he delivered these mediocre performances? This clearly reflects what I am saying, YOU CAN STILL HAVE YOUNG PLAYERS AND SEE THEM FOR WHAT THEY TRULY ARE – THAT THEY AREN’T GOOD ENOUGH. Baros showed his ineptitude in a number of categories, Sissoko is exactly the same! Saying that Sissoko will get better in his weak areas is like saying Baros will get better in his, you have seen that Baros couldn’t why can’t you see that Sissoko won’t either? I agree with you Baros was inconsistent and not good enough for Liverpool at a ‘young’ age the same thing can be said about Sissoko he is just not good enough for our team, I don’t care if he is adapting, is young or inexperienced, he can’t do the simple things and in the end that it was really matters.

“I'm afraid we are only going to disagree about Kuyt, only the future will tell us who is right on that one. He has shown his attributes, he is a player who lacks pace but has drive, excellent link up play, aerial ability, awareness and defensive nouse. I believe he will come good next season when Benitez finds the right mix of players. It is only his first season in England, again I re-iterate that he has had to adapt to a new way of life, that isn't easy.”

Kuyt is a squad player, yes he is good at driving the attack, linking up play and for his awareness, but he lacks the thing that separates him from the likes of Owen, Rush, Fowler, THE FACT THAT HE IS NOT A GOAL MACHINE. Call me crazy but forwards are judged at the end of the day for one thing, and one thing only, for putting the ball in the back of the net! Kuyt hasn’t shown any signs of being a goal machine for the upcoming seasons, yes he tries hard, but in the cut-throat business of winning a Premiership title, this isn’t good enough. As for you argument of finding the right mix of players, what are you saying that Benitez needs to find the right players so Kuyt can actually play and score more goals! WTF? You are relying on other players to make him look good, I’m not even going to bother arguing that………….

“You argue about the money Benitez has wasted on players like 'arbeloa' for example, he has shown he has the ability in his first two games, he has dipped since then but he is not used to the English game nor can he speak English nor has he adapted to life in England. You are judging far far too early on that one, Benitez had to sign a full back with a limited budget i.e. £2m and I think there aren't many better for that price.”

Benitez has wasted money, regardless of the fact he spent nothing on them (Zenden) but still paid for their salary he HAS wasted our money and time. The only players that have improved the team dramatically are Alonso and Reina end of. Most of the players he has bought in just haven’t been good enough and unlike the failing argument that he is genius and can do no wrong, he has made a lot of mistakes. Every other player he has bought has been average to good (at best). Make what you want of his miserly budget, he has still had money to buy and in some respects money to buy good players not hand-me-downs. Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy and Kuyt alone have cost us over 30 million pounds! With all that money we could have at least got someone to replace Owen with money to spare for squad strikers the same caliber that we have at the moment.

“Finally, I'm not pretending everything is pretty in the rose garden but it is certainly a lot prettier than under Houllier. You cannot compare the flop signings of Baros, Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heggem etc......... with Sissoko, Alonso, Mascherano, Kuyt, Bellamy, Crouch......................
there is a distinct gulf in class between the calibre of players Benitez has signed compared to Houllier.”

You are comparing Houllier’s worst signings compared to Benitez’s best signings, comparing Alonso with Cheyrou and Heggem, laughable simply laughable! Why don’t you compare Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Heskey to Benitez’s wonder signings of Morientes, Zenden, Josemi, Gonzalez? Or Hyppia, Henchoz, Hamaan, McAllister, Litamanen to Alonso, Reina, Sissoko, Mascherano. You won’t because your ridiculous argument of comparing apples with bananas falls flat on its face!

"Of course Benitez should be accountable, but to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic. The manager needs the support of the fans as well as our trust and confidence, who do suggest would do a better job than Benitez under the circumstances and on the money he has spent???

No one is constantly barracking for Rafa’s demise you twit, realist fans like myself have taken off the rose coloured spectacles and are starting to see his failings, unlike people like yourself. I have always supported Rafa and will continue to do so, even if we fail tomorrow against Chelsea. But if things don’t turn around next season, these failings that realist fans keep highlighting will come to the fore and I'm sure the “In Rafa we trust” brigade will be scrambling for cover.

"We are building towards a successful next few years, there is no question. I am glad to say you are in the overwhelming minority in your views compared to the majority of scousers who are optimistic and excited about our future and who `will get behind the management team instead of undermining it."

Undermining.

Constructive and analytical criticism.

Fine line between the two.

Now go hop along grasshopper, hop along!

Excellent retort. Only 71 posts in over a years and a half?

Hang around and keep 'em coming mate.

[hishhish]

Excellent discussion, good to know this forum has real dedicated supporters with and against. I wonder does anyone from the club read this? would this be useful to them? For example, would a summary of such great commentary be used by the club/management to improve things.

As for entering in the debate, I couild never analyse the management with such detail and history. But I would say that if it took Fergie a number of years to get the premiership, then we should give Rafa that. I think in general he has made few MAJOR mistakes, has created belief in the team, and is finally supported by an owner with money (it does come down to money in the end). A quickly assembled team can win the league once, but to build a tradition of winning, needs stability, money and vision. I believe Rafa and LFC have that now.
Can't wait for the game!

[account deleted by request]

I have just been reading that Man City are after buying Cisse for £3.5million. I wouldn't entertain selling him for that price! We would be better off keeping him for that sort of fkn money! We got well and truely stuffed over Diouf, now Cisse? Anything less than £6million and I would keep him, FFS he's not that bad.

[duk]

I'm not convinced we could get Owen, although I think he's good enough I think Newcastle would be incredibly reluctant to sell. He's also settled into a new life in the North East so I think it would take something special for us to sign him. I think Pedersen is a decent player but lacks physical presence and defensive awareness despite the quality he possesses with his left foot. There's always speculation about top players moving on, but I think it's important to note that the players Benitez signs tend to be ones with something big to prove, ones who are not necessarily well known - agger and sissoko being examples of this.

Doesn't Owen have a clause in his contract saying that if Newcastle recieve a bid of 12million then they have to allow Owen to talk to the bidding club.... Surely he's worth 12million?

[metalhead]

Kaka, Villa , Robben are probably the three we need but cant get.

sources from the electrician who works in the club says we made a deal to sign the 3 of them 

was the electrians first name 'welsh' by any

yes, his family name is wizzard 

[Ace Ventura]

I have just been reading that Man City are after buying Cisse for £3.5million. I wouldn't entertain selling him for that price! We would be better off keeping him for that sort of fkn money! We got well and truely stuffed over Diouf, now Cisse? Anything less than £6million and I would keep him, FFS he's not that bad.

That is a p!ss take that mate, he is worth about 6 million.

I would try and offer Cisse and cash for Micah Richards, you never know do you.