Stu.Murph wrote:LFC2007 wrote:If you look at my argument as a whole, which you have not comprehensively responded to then I think you will see my points very cleary and in direct response to the points you have made. In your last post directed at me you have not addressed the points I made, for example........ I have addressed the point you made about the similarity of the first three seasons under Houllier to that of Benitez, I have shown the distinct difference between them and it is plain and clear in my argument.
You've addressed the point in the similarities?
You mean you've put your own slant on things. Under Benitez we struggle against the Mancs and against the good sides. Under Houllier we didn't, under Houllier we won a cup treble. Under Benitez we haven't. Under Houllier we picked up some absoloute bargains, under Benitez we haven't.
Of course I rate Benitez higher than Houllier, Its plain to see. But the facts speak for themselves and there records to date are very very similar no matter how you choose to distort it or hide that fact.
Also, the reason I completely couldn't be bothered to address your points is your rediculous attitude towards the club. Its clear you can't see where we have gone wrong and its clear you're impressed with a 10,000,000 striker who scores 13 goals, its also clear you don't understand or have any knowledge of player developement, player ability, attributes, consistency or potential.
LFC2007 wrote:Your perception of my argument is out of context, I was talking about Benitez in the context of his successes, his prior experiences and the evidence that supports his credentials e.g. two European cups in three years, an FA cup, a record premiership points total.
Houllier gained one point less in his third season with 81 points. He also won an FA cup, a league cup, and a Uefa cup
and signed alot of good players for a lot less money in this period. ALOT of which were excellent value and improved the squad and team. His record is more than comparible to what Benitez has done so far.
Again, I point out there are two sides to every arguement and you completely neglect the other side. Like I said, I don't for a second think Houllier's better than Benitez, I'm simply pointing out that your attitude difference to the two managers has absoloutely no foundation.
LFC2007 wrote:Please tell me exactly where I have questioned your personal credentials in judging the game. I have merely stated the credentials of Benitez, this is something you have misconstrued in your post.
LFC2007 wrote:but nobody can categorically say he WILL be this or he WILL NOT be that
You clearly did say. You seem to think its an opinion, its not an opinion at all. As I've explained many a time in stupid discussions with idiots who clearly don't understand the game, players have attributes and qualities.
It takes a level of judgement. If its about "opinions" then what you are saying is if I said I had the potential to be better than Vieira I couldn't be wrong because you can't have a "wrong opinion" by definition. The fact is players are better than other players and thats why certain teams beat others.
Football's so misunderstood its unreal. You don't go from being a poor passer of a ball to a great passer of a ball, players don't change mould, qualities and attributes (unless its physical due to growth/age). A player like Alonso will always be a good passer with excellent vision, Steven Gerrard as a reserve still had an excellent strike, pass, tackle etc etc etc, he still gives the ball away cheaply and is occassionally tunnel visioned.
Players have never and will never ever as long as football exists become something they aren't and gain attributes they clearly don't have.
LFC2007 wrote:Benitez is a top, top manager and we are not privy all the information he has at his disposal for example, what goes on behind the scenes, the reasons for his decisions or for example detailed scout reports that form part of the basis on why he signs a player.
It is not about being 'boring and tedious', its about being realistic and contextual in assessing his performance as manager.
I do not blindly follow Benitez, I put his progress at the club in context, you do not, and that's the fundamental crux of the argument.
What relivance is any of that?
I don't put his performance in context?
You're the one saying his acheivements so far are so much more worthy of praise than what Houllier done. Not me.
I personally don't see a massive improvement. The personel in the first 11 under Houllier was far better infact and that team of players had far more ability. Had Benitez had that team I've no doubt he'd have cracked it, but the question is can he build a team as good as that? My answer would be extremely doubtful which is the exact reason he deserves this summer and next season before serious questions have to start being asked. Signings like Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Sissoko, Agger etc etc are not acceptable when there are better players out there going for less money. Simple as that. I don't care if "they've done alright". "Doing alright" doesn't make you into a player you aren't.
LFC2007 wrote:I have never stated that the signings Benitez has made are good enough to win us the league - that is an assumption you have made. What I have said is that he has made some quality signings, some poor signings, and some who would be too premature to judge. I have also put these signings in the context of a) the budget b) signings made by previous managers c) signings made by fellow managers.
Firstly its is NEVER to early to make a judgement on a player. After 10 minutes I can tell you weather a player is good enough. As soon as I saw Alonso at home to Norwich I knew for a fact we had a player. Simple as that.
It doesn't take a genius to spot a good player. It takes an objective evaluation and going and watching a match live. decent players do the expected things at the expected times, Great players do things that you don't see and expect.
Players like Sissoko and Agger have ability, but they aren't and never will be top players and no "remember Henry and Pires" arguements wil ever wash with me. The fact Is I remember Henry clearly. I remember him coming over and getting stick for being the countries joint to goalscorer which peole seem to conve0niently forget. The fact is players obviously become better with confidence and age as they learn more about themselves and learn more about what they are good at, but there attributes as a whole don't fluctuate much at all. Carragher was always excellent defensively and made good decisions.
LFC2007 wrote:You are entitled to your opinion as to whether Benitez is capable of building a side capable of winning the premiership - I have merely put this in context (yet again), for example it took Ferguson (at a time when the league was weaker than it is now) 5 years to build a team capable of winning titles on a consistent basis, at that time he had the largest budget in the league aswell. I am saying that I would rather wait another season or two for him to build his side and develop the way he sees fit. It would be crazy (in my opinion) to change the manager, of which there are none, who could replace Benitez under the circumstances and do a better job. It would throw us back another decade.
players. but if the players 
