Liverpool FC Forum

[takeactionnow]

yeah i agree why play kuyt tonight ok so he needs a goal but he didnt even look like he know where he was surely it would have been more productive to give the youngster a go

[ruskiy playmaker]

Rafa was under extreme presure tonight to win and I really thought he would bring Babel on, but no Kuyt come on and I want kuyt to do well but kuyt came on and played like an auxilary nurse god help the lad, god help him.

I can't imagine how the poor b@stard must be feeling, it's like someone put a curse on him.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

The fact that Kuyt hasn't scored, isn't the problem for me, my problem is he doesn't do anything towards helping us score either. He runs and runs and runs but that's it. Even when Crouch wasn't scoring he'll cause havoc and create chances for us.

[The Manhattan Project]

Crouch is like Cloverfield.

He's big, he's ugly, he's gangly, he's dangerous, and no one really knows exactly how to deal with him.

But give him a chance and he'll cause problems.

[Bad Bob]

but this issue above all others has IMHO made more "in Rafa we trust"ers shake their heads than any other.

Definitely true in my case.  I rate the big man still and can't see why he hasn't been getting a game.  He causes defenders problems, brings teammates into play and scores a few himself to boot.  Kuyt and Voronin do none of those things.  I support a lot of what Rafa does but this persistent blind spot is infuriating.*



(I would say that playing Carra at RB ranks right up there too but, feck me, what a nice job of beating his man and putting in a sweet cross for Crouchy today! )

[Seano Kop]

a.) It's one game

b.) It was against Sunderland

c.) His goal was all Carra and Torres (mainly Carra)

d.) Babel instead

[66-1112520797]

BBC !

Bring back Crouchie 

[redtrader74]

Somebody said earlier that the constant playing of Kuyt has probably alienated more fans from Rafa than anything else and I agree with that. Some people like myself have lots of other problems witht he way that Rafa does things, but this issue above all others has IMHO made more "in Rafa we trust"ers shake their heads than any other.

Funnily enough I've supported rafa in his fall out with Crouch. Managers do fall out with players from time to time and in those circumstances, the player has to go. Ferguson has done it many times over the years, Jaap Stam and Van Horseface spring to mind. When it happens, you sell up and move on. The bit that gets me though is not that the fallout happened, it's that we didn't sell up we just fecked up by continuing to play Kuyt. What is the point of that? Then every time Crouch plays he either scores or looks like he might score. It's time for the end of the silliness. Reina always plays in goal, Gerrard and Masherano always play in the centre, Carragher always plays, it's time to add Torres/Crouch into the always play list.

That someone was me....you better credit me 

I am not a big fan of Crouch, very limited, but he has done what it says on the tin, and however they come, he has scored goals fairly consistently. I had hoped that Kuyt would have kicked on this season, but his anticipation in non-existent, i have no idea how and why he scored so many in Holland.

I support Rafa, but for the life of me cannot fathom why Kuyt has played so often, maybe there is some effect of his effort that Rafa thinks will get us the result, but that clearly hasn't been the case over the last 10 games. IMO we should START most games with Torres and Crouch for the rest of the season, Kuyts effort and drive can be utilised if or when we gat a lead as a sub.

BTW i expect Rafa to stick with Crouch for the Chelsea game, with Terry out they have looked dodgy at times on set pieces, Oh and we'll stop their record home unbeaten run.

[Owzat]

Surprised he got the header, but then again Slumberland's defence was asleep with the defender seeming not to want to contest the header against Crouch! He was bound to score against villa as a former club, scoring against Havant was probably a greater achievement than scoring against Slumberland the way the respective sides played. At the moment Crouch seems about our fifth best goalscoring hope :-

1) Torres
2) Gerrard
3) Benayoun/Babel
5) Crouch



99) The rest

Here's an interesting little analysis of the strikers, by opponent (current Premiership sides by current league position, all seasons in Liverpool shirt)

Crouch

Prem 01-04 : 6 goals in 27 appearances (0.222 goals/app, 67 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 5 goals in 21 appearances (0.238 goals/app, 52 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 6 goals in 21 appearances (0.286 goals/app, 58 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 4 goals in 13 appearances (0.308 goals/app, 58 mins/app)

Kuyt

Prem 01-04 : 4 goals in 15 appearances (0.267 goals/app, 84 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 2 goals in 14 appearances (0.143 goals/app, 82 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 7 goals in 18 appearances (0.389 goals/app, 58 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 3 goals in 8 appearances (0.375 goals/app, 45 mins/app)

Apparently Crouch is hard done by according to some fans because he doesn't get mins on the pitch, well Kuyt gets less against bottom half teams and scores more than Crouch. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, both are equally capable of being on the pitch 80+ mins and doing sweet FA. For the record Kuyt spends about 13 mins longer on the pitch on average, such a massive advantage considering both take 2 hours or more on average to score!

TORRES

Prem 01-04 : 1 goals in 3 appearances (0.333 goals/app, 75 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 2 goals in 6 appearances (0.333 goals/app, 78 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 5 goals in 8 appearances (0.625 goals/app, 88 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 7 goals in 6 appearances (1.167 goals/app, 64 mins/app)

Voronin

Prem 01-04 : 0 goals in 3 appearances (0.000 goals/app, 81 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 0 goals in 2 appearances (0.000 goals/app, 51 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 2 goals in 4 appearances (0.500 goals/app, 63 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 1 goal in 5 appearances (0.200 goals/app, 68 mins/app)

Just as well we paid zero pounds for Voronin as zero seems to be a feature of his stats! You get what you pay for. Kuyt has now gone THIRTEEN games without scoring, that after scoring 5 goals in his first 11 games this season when everyone on here starting screaming he was useless and it's only recently he's been used regularly - although he's playing the full 90 near enough every other game

[66-1112520797]

Surprised he got the header, but then again Slumberland's defence was asleep with the defender seeming not to want to contest the header against Crouch! He was bound to score against villa as a former club, scoring against Havant was probably a greater achievement than scoring against Slumberland the way the respective sides played. At the moment Crouch seems about our fifth best goalscoring hope :-

1) Torres
2) Gerrard
3) Benayoun/Babel
5) Crouch



99) The rest

Here's an interesting little analysis of the strikers, by opponent (current Premiership sides by current league position, all seasons in Liverpool shirt)

Crouch

Prem 01-04 : 6 goals in 27 appearances (0.222 goals/app, 67 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 5 goals in 21 appearances (0.238 goals/app, 52 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 6 goals in 21 appearances (0.286 goals/app, 58 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 4 goals in 13 appearances (0.308 goals/app, 58 mins/app)

Kuyt

Prem 01-04 : 4 goals in 15 appearances (0.267 goals/app, 84 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 2 goals in 14 appearances (0.143 goals/app, 82 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 7 goals in 18 appearances (0.389 goals/app, 58 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 3 goals in 8 appearances (0.375 goals/app, 45 mins/app)

Apparently Crouch is hard done by according to some fans because he doesn't get mins on the pitch, well Kuyt gets less against bottom half teams and scores more than Crouch. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, both are equally capable of being on the pitch 80+ mins and doing sweet FA. For the record Kuyt spends about 13 mins longer on the pitch on average, such a massive advantage considering both take 2 hours or more on average to score!

TORRES

Prem 01-04 : 1 goals in 3 appearances (0.333 goals/app, 75 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 2 goals in 6 appearances (0.333 goals/app, 78 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 5 goals in 8 appearances (0.625 goals/app, 88 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 7 goals in 6 appearances (1.167 goals/app, 64 mins/app)

Voronin

Prem 01-04 : 0 goals in 3 appearances (0.000 goals/app, 81 mins/app)
Prem 05-10 : 0 goals in 2 appearances (0.000 goals/app, 51 mins/app)
Prem 11-16 : 2 goals in 4 appearances (0.500 goals/app, 63 mins/app)
Prem 17-20 : 1 goal in 5 appearances (0.200 goals/app, 68 mins/app)

Just as well we paid zero pounds for Voronin as zero seems to be a feature of his stats! You get what you pay for. Kuyt has now gone THIRTEEN games without scoring, that after scoring 5 goals in his first 11 games this season when everyone on here starting screaming he was useless and it's only recently he's been used regularly - although he's playing the full 90 near enough every other game

Boll0ks to ya !

[bigmick]

I thought you'd probably find a way Owz' of making the stats question what our eyes are telling us, namely that Crouch offers around 1000% more than Kuyt and you didn't disappoint. (All seasons in a Liverpool shirt), well I guess that run Crouch had when he didn't score in his first sixteen games or whatever it was does come in handy for something. Similarly, goals is goals I guess so the fact that Kuyt has scored three Premiership goals this season needs no embellishment. The fact that two out of the three were penalties in one game, and the other goal was a result of the ball hitting him and going in doesn't warrant a mention I guess . And then you've got the cheek to mention Sunderlands poor defence for Crouch's header which gave us the lead  Similarly, it must be my imagination that we seem to flit between the "minutes per goal" comparisons and the "goals per appearance" ones, in whichever manner makes our case better at the time.

I'll give you another factor which can't be quantified by stats I don't think. If you have two players, one of whom plays regularly in the team and one who makes occasional appearances, sometimes going three weeks without getting a start, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect more sharpness and goal threat from the regular starter? Just something to consider when making the comparison.

It strikes me that sometimes people are more concerned with proving themselves right (and I definately include myself in this) than they are with looking at the thing objectively. It's very much like the rotation debate and the pro/anti Rafa thing. I admitted the fact that I called Kuyt totally wrong after half a dozen or so appearances ages ago (I even started a thread to that effect). For that reason it doesn't stick in my throat now to admit now that I think he is an absolute distance short of top-half Premiership club standard. However poor anybody thinks Crouch is, he is a fecking better proposition than Kuyt in every sense by an absolute mile, and no amount of statistical juggling will alter the fact.

I repeat what I said in the topic starter. If you swapped the number of appearances which Kuyt and Crouch had made in the Prem this season, we would be a few points ahead of where we are now I'm sure of it.

[bigmick]

Oh and BTW, when I said earlier that someone had said that the constant playing of Kuyt had alienated more "In Rafa we trsters" than just about anyhting else the manager had done, that someone was Redtrader74. Just thought I'd point it out

[Owzat]

I thought you'd probably find a way Owz' of making the stats question what our eyes are telling us, namely that Crouch offers around 1000% more than Kuyt and you didn't disappoint. (All seasons in a Liverpool shirt), well I guess that run Crouch had when he didn't score in his first sixteen games or whatever it was does come in handy for something. Similarly, goals is goals I guess so the fact that Kuyt has scored three Premiership goals this season needs no embellishment. The fact that two out of the three were penalties in one game, and the other goal was a result of the ball hitting him and going in doesn't warrant a mention I guess . And then you've got the cheek to mention Sunderlands poor defence for Crouch's header which gave us the lead  Similarly, it must be my imagination that we seem to flit between the "minutes per goal" comparisons and the "goals per appearance" ones, in whichever manner makes our case better at the time.

I'll give you another factor which can't be quantified by stats I don't think. If you have two players, one of whom plays regularly in the team and one who makes occasional appearances, sometimes going three weeks without getting a start, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect more sharpness and goal threat from the regular starter? Just something to consider when making the comparison.

It strikes me that sometimes people are more concerned with proving themselves right (and I definately include myself in this) than they are with looking at the thing objectively. It's very much like the rotation debate and the pro/anti Rafa thing. I admitted the fact that I called Kuyt totally wrong after half a dozen or so appearances ages ago (I even started a thread to that effect). For that reason it doesn't stick in my throat now to admit now that I think he is an absolute distance short of top-half Premiership club standard. However poor anybody thinks Crouch is, he is a fecking better proposition than Kuyt in every sense by an absolute mile, and no amount of statistical juggling will alter the fact.

I repeat what I said in the topic starter. If you swapped the number of appearances which Kuyt and Crouch had made in the Prem this season, we would be a few points ahead of where we are now I'm sure of it.

Crouch offers 1000% more than Kuyt does he?  I'm glad there's no statistic to back that up, then you're probably one of those who prefers opinion dressed up as fact.

I'm sorry, did Sunderland's defence suddenly become fantastic? Or Havant for that matter? The same Sunderland defence that the bitters scored SEVEN against, still you had to find some way to try and make the stats out to be biased! 32 goals in 13 away games proves my point, hot air doesn't prove your's

And as usual I say Kuyt is as bad as Crouch and you (and others) make out like I'm defending him! Did I say Kuyt is better than Crouch? He scored at a goal every other game early season, Crouch wasn't playing. If you want to play compare cr ap with cr ap then knock yourself out

Fair enough on the week in, week out call. Yet Crouch has played NINE full 90 minutes this season and six lots of 60+ minutes so he's played a full part in nearly half the Liverpool games. Kuyt has played the full 90 minutes sixteen times which is only seven more than Crouch, although the way some of you lot talk you'd think Crouch had not played in years.

Neither is good enough, face facts. If you want to delude yourself that Crouch is going to become a top class striker by playing more often then suit yourself, however all you're doing is criticising me for putting down the stats. You don't have to believe my comments, the fact that you comment on the fact that he took sixteen games to score but not that he played every f ing game bar one in that goalless spell shows selectivity on your part. Why didn't he score in those sixteen games? Because he's sh ite. And he played consistently for his former club, or will you use his ban carried over as an excuse perhaps. Your knack of finding the smallest thing as an excuse reminds me of a bitter blaming Heysel...................

[bigmick]

Not sure about the "bitter blaming Heysel" comment Owz, (not one of your better ones that) but I do think you're allowing the fact that you've never rated Crouch to cloud what is a fairly obvious conclusion to come to. Argue all you want about whether he is the ultimate answer as Torres' parter (and in truth we both know he isn't) but he is better than Kuyt by a distance. He is better in that he offers a huge amount more goal threat, and is better in his overall contribution to the team. I a ten minute spell today, he scored, had the scissor kick saved and had a header cleared off the line. In that ten minute spell, he offered more goal threat than Kuyt has in the last two months.

[66-1112520797]

I thought you'd probably find a way Owz' of making the stats question what our eyes are telling us, namely that Crouch offers around 1000% more than Kuyt and you didn't disappoint. (All seasons in a Liverpool shirt), well I guess that run Crouch had when he didn't score in his first sixteen games or whatever it was does come in handy for something. Similarly, goals is goals I guess so the fact that Kuyt has scored three Premiership goals this season needs no embellishment. The fact that two out of the three were penalties in one game, and the other goal was a result of the ball hitting him and going in doesn't warrant a mention I guess . And then you've got the cheek to mention Sunderlands poor defence for Crouch's header which gave us the lead  Similarly, it must be my imagination that we seem to flit between the "minutes per goal" comparisons and the "goals per appearance" ones, in whichever manner makes our case better at the time.

I'll give you another factor which can't be quantified by stats I don't think. If you have two players, one of whom plays regularly in the team and one who makes occasional appearances, sometimes going three weeks without getting a start, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect more sharpness and goal threat from the regular starter? Just something to consider when making the comparison.

It strikes me that sometimes people are more concerned with proving themselves right (and I definately include myself in this) than they are with looking at the thing objectively. It's very much like the rotation debate and the pro/anti Rafa thing. I admitted the fact that I called Kuyt totally wrong after half a dozen or so appearances ages ago (I even started a thread to that effect). For that reason it doesn't stick in my throat now to admit now that I think he is an absolute distance short of top-half Premiership club standard. However poor anybody thinks Crouch is, he is a fecking better proposition than Kuyt in every sense by an absolute mile, and no amount of statistical juggling will alter the fact.

I repeat what I said in the topic starter. If you swapped the number of appearances which Kuyt and Crouch had made in the Prem this season, we would be a few points ahead of where we are now I'm sure of it.

Crouch offers 1000% more than Kuyt does he?  I'm glad there's no statistic to back that up, then you're probably one of those who prefers opinion dressed up as fact.

I'm sorry, did Sunderland's defence suddenly become fantastic? Or Havant for that matter? The same Sunderland defence that the bitters scored SEVEN against, still you had to find some way to try and make the stats out to be biased! 32 goals in 13 away games proves my point, hot air doesn't prove your's

And as usual I say Kuyt is as bad as Crouch and you (and others) make out like I'm defending him! Did I say Kuyt is better than Crouch? He scored at a goal every other game early season, Crouch wasn't playing. If you want to play compare cr ap with cr ap then knock yourself out

Fair enough on the week in, week out call. Yet Crouch has played NINE full 90 minutes this season and six lots of 60+ minutes so he's played a full part in nearly half the Liverpool games. Kuyt has played the full 90 minutes sixteen times which is only seven more than Crouch, although the way some of you lot talk you'd think Crouch had not played in years.

Neither is good enough, face facts. If you want to delude yourself that Crouch is going to become a top class striker by playing more often then suit yourself, however all you're doing is criticising me for putting down the stats. You don't have to believe my comments, the fact that you comment on the fact that he took sixteen games to score but not that he played every f ing game bar one in that goalless spell shows selectivity on your part. Why didn't he score in those sixteen games? Because he's sh ite. And he played consistently for his former club, or will you use his ban carried over as an excuse perhaps. Your knack of finding the smallest thing as an excuse reminds me of a bitter blaming Heysel...................

Well at least its nice to see your opinion than these f.ucking stats you stand and live by. However wrong you maybe, you or your biased stats I dont believe Crouch is as s.*i*e as you make out.

Heres a hint, watch the game dont watch the stats.