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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:47 pm

Bammo wrote:To those people saying the other players should have had a go too, are you mad??? Passion's brilliant but would you all be applauding Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Reina etc if they'd all sprinted up to Bennet, called him a cunt and been sent off. Right or not, the derby would be fun without all our best players wouldn't it?

Spot on there mate. I've said this meself, if Gerrard had complained to Bennett and got himself booked for complaining then get another booking for some silly foul everyone would be blaming Gerrard for getting involved with the ref when it had nothing to do with him.

People for some reason are looking to blame anyone other than the man who was in the wrong.
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4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby banana » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:04 pm

Toffeehater wrote:
heimdall wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:I cant argue anymore with this Masher fiasco some of us believe he did no wrong and others believe he was right to go weve all got our own take on it,

Just wait till the FA wanna make it more than what it is an give him a bigger ban, Well all be screaming at the injustice when hes missing for not just next week but for a few weeks.

Criminal

If he carries on behaving like a caveman with no respect for himself or the team then I won't miss him at all. He was winging and whining to the ref all the first half, he absolutely deserved to be sent off, or subbed off if Rafa wasn't dozing! Torres was booked for showing disrespect to the ref, very clever, then brainbox Masch runs over and gets himself sent off, then doesn't obey his captain and only just obeys his manager when asked to leave the pitch, what a guy!!! and people want him to be the next captain, what a joke!!!

I am so sick and tired of the attitude on here that everyone is against us, it's pathetic. We were lucky not to have Carra sent off right at the start of the game and it's only because Rooney is an honest and strong player that we didn't, don't worry I still

Rooney is not an honest and strong player , the only reason eh stayed up is because he had the confidence to score and he needs the goals , he's on 8 for the season and if he had dropped and it was a pen , ronaldo would have taken it and not him , yes credit to him , he stayed on his feet when most would have gone down , maybe even torres in his position but he did it for his own motive

People complaining abt kuyt's finishing take one hard long good look at the amount of chances rooney had , kuyt would have buried at least 1 of those , yes people can argue that rooney creates more or gives more to the team , i think since kuyt has been moved to the right , he has given more this season , he has created goals and effectively stopped attacks down his side and has done it well , he was the only one who can walk away with his head held high yesterday as he was the only one who played the match for the love and passion for the game .
Well done lad .

So let me get this straight , mascherano can't ask the ref , what's this when he booked torres? and it was our freekick? Where was th protection there that ferguson wanted for skillfull players with flair like ronaldo, where was it for torres? The lad left the game with injuries and possibly because of that, i'm sorry the officials deserve no respect what so ever . SO basically for asking a question mascherano for that he gets sent off , well sorry then i think everyweek the premier league should have players off if its like this , countless like rooney , ronaldo , terry , rio just a fewto mention , theymouth of to the refree and get away with it why? Becasue they have a different set of rules , yes mascherano was wrong but he wanted to know why the ref was showing double standards and no consistency what so ever , if u are going to book someone for their first tackle and he knows its late and the studs were down , then he should have booked scholes for deliberately blocking babel , when babel had beaten him and he obstrcuted him . Face it , the ref is a cu.nt and he ate right outta ferguson's hand .

So Kuyt is now better than Rooney?

Ronay has power
pace
dribbling ability
strenght
determination
and most importantly: he is a winner

Kuyt

is weak
has no power
has no dribbling ability
and so on and so on

Oh yes I forgot, some say he has a good "mentality" so I guess he is class?

Face it. He is no threath to any team. He is a threath to Liverpool as we suffer with him as a striker or as a winger. It is like playing with 10 men and one girl. I have not seen a slower striker than him. Bring back Heskey, Baros, Diouf, Collymore, heck even bring back Meijer and Riedle. Theyre all miles ahead of Dirk :censored:.
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Postby J*o*n*D*o*e » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:49 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bammo wrote:To those people saying the other players should have had a go too, are you mad??? Passion's brilliant but would you all be applauding Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Reina etc if they'd all sprinted up to Bennet, called him a cunt and been sent off. Right or not, the derby would be fun without all our best players wouldn't it?

Spot on there mate. I've said this meself, if Gerrard had complained to Bennett and got himself booked for complaining then get another booking for some silly foul everyone would be blaming Gerrard for getting involved with the ref when it had nothing to do with him.

People for some reason are looking to blame anyone other than the man who was in the wrong.

The thing is mate Gerrard told him to Foff your a disgrace, where is the consistency.

he could of pointed to his pocket or to the bench and said sort it or i will and everybody would of applauded him for it, but this way he and probably the F.A if something has been said since the spurs game have gone and made a refs job even harder because come saturday fans will be on the refs back even more once a card is not issued when someone is seen to question a decision.
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Postby LFC2007 » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:01 pm

What a shit game, it could hardly have turned out to be more disappointing. Thank f*ck we've got the derby next weekend to put things right.

First off, the Mascherano incident, and my take.

Mascherano was unquestionably in the wrong to badger Bennett on a number of occasions, (because) you just can't do that with Bennett, he's a known tw@t who has a very low tolerance threshold to any hint of a player undermining his authority. A threshold much lower than most other ref's.
I could sense Mascherano was about to get a second yellow at some point, because of the way he was going on and his body language, and that it was Mr Bennett of course. I was hoping we could make it to half time and re-assess, because of this and because we hadn't settled into a rhythm on the playing side of things.

I thought the ref made a poor decision in sending him off, in that, the actual incident didn't warrant a yellow, and the ref didn't communicate to either i) The Captain, or ii) The Manager, beforehand to warn them that he may take serious action if the badgering continued. It's one of the biggest fixtures in the footballing calendar and the ref has a responsibility to the fans at the stadium, and those watching on TV to ensure that it flows as best as possible. If he'd had a word with Rafa or Gerrard, or even Carragher and told either: 'look, any more nonsense from Mascherano and he's off', or preferrably in a more subtle way 'I'm trying my best to keep the game flowing, I don't want to be forced into sending anyone off', he would then have had full justification to go and give Mascherano the second yellow - if he persisted with the swearing afterwards. It doesn't have to be so authoritarian and this is where the disconnect appears. The key is effective communication. If Mascherano was unwilling accept the ref as a figure of authority, he'd have surely accepted the words of Rafa as binding to his behaviour. If not then he can justify that he's done everything in his power to keep the game flowing. Bennett is a stubborn f*cker though, and he doesn't communicate properly with the players. If you take the 'I'm the dog's bollocks and what I say goes attitude' as a ref (Bennett is of this sort), you encourage a divide between the officials and players that entices inflammatory behaviour. If, for example, Howard Webb or Mark Clattenburg had been ref'ing the match, they probably would have taken a more consensual approach and I don't think he'd have gone.  In games of such magnitude, you can expect tempers to flare, and players to be aggrieved even more so. As a ref you have to adapt to these circumstance and do everything possible in order to make the game flow. Bennett didn't do that yesterday.

As for the game, although it's difficult to analyse it because of the sending off, I thought the gulf in class was evident even before the sending off.

We looked very edgy from the off, our passing was sloppy and we couldn't settle into our game. Skrtel and Reina were at fault for the opening goal. Skrtel had to be more aware, he needed to spot the danger whilst Rooney was retrieving the ball, then quickly set himself for the defensive header away. He was static because he hadn't anticipated the threat, you need to be driving the ball away with the header and that means positioning yourself in anticipation of the threat. Reina shouldn't have come out, and he was mainly at fault IMO because he probably would have saved it but for his foray into no man's land. Unless you're 100% certain you can get there you don't venture out, it's as simple as that.

In terms of the formation, you can't really make a firm appraisal of it given the sending off. I think Riise might have been better served playing on the left instead of Babel. He (Babel) needs a fair portion of space to be effective and although he had one run into the box, he was largely anonymous throughout. We needed an outlet at times, even if it was just to retain possession for a bit longer, and at least a natural left footer would've given us that. Overall, they were more dynamic, and for our Torres they had Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs and Evra bombing one, with Nani and Tevez on the bench. The skill, along with the pace and power of these players told. Scholes may be getting on but he was also very lively as was Anderson, who was excellent.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:02 pm

Bammo wrote:[To those people saying the other players should have had a go too, are you mad??? Passion's brilliant but would you all be applauding Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Reina etc if they'd all sprinted up to Bennet, called him a cunt and been sent off. Right or not, the derby would be fun without all our best players wouldn't it?

No I'm not mad mate, I'm just looking at the thing objectively. I think Masherano was a mug and I've said it many times. I'm simply making the point that by allowing him to confront the ref on his own, his teammates let him down. If they weren't going to stop him altogether, (which nobody did) then the very least they could do was get involved themselves to negate the possibility of Masherano getting the card. To answer your other point, Bennet wouldn't have booked three or four at the same time, it simply doesn't happen.

Experienced players have been known when the score is 0-0 at Home and going nowhere to deliberately start a ruck, an argument with the ref to get everyone fired up a bit. The same player would have run half the length of the pitch to join in with Masherano, to take over the argument from him, if needs be to get himself booked to ensure the Argentine didn't get the red.

  It's about playing as a team, having that winning mentality. People can disagree with the ethics of it all they like, but you just don't let a bloke who's ona booking remonstrate with the ref on his own. That's all I'm saying really.
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Postby JBG » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:16 pm

The match yesterday was lost in the first 30 minutes: both sides lined up with a similar formation and in my eyes the crucial battle line was the Alonso/Mascherano v. Anderson/Carrick duel and in being comprehensively outplayed by UTD in this area the game was won and lost. Both Alonso and Mascherano weren't at the races at all and Carrick and Anderson started to dominate midfield, with Carrick spraying passes around and Anderson breaking from deep to support the attack. In my view it's as simple as that, regardless of what happened later with Mascherano, losing that battle lost the game.

The other worrying aspect is that all over the field Ferguson/Quiorez comprehensively out thought Benitez. UTD bisected our centre halves a couple of times before the first goal went in with Anderson's drives from deep and Rooney's clever runs. UTD also punished Reina's biggest weakness by challenging him on crosses and they also won the majority of the set plays.

Sadly Mascherano lost the plot entirely and that distracted from the simple and cold fact that UTD pawned us all over the park. :(
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Postby Bammo » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:20 pm

bigmick wrote:
Bammo wrote:[To those people saying the other players should have had a go too, are you mad??? Passion's brilliant but would you all be applauding Gerrard, Alonso, Torres, Carra, Reina etc if they'd all sprinted up to Bennet, called him a cunt and been sent off. Right or not, the derby would be fun without all our best players wouldn't it?

No I'm not mad mate, I'm just looking at the thing objectively. I think Masherano was a mug and I've said it many times. I'm simply making the point that by allowing him to confront the ref on his own, his teammates let him down. If they weren't going to stop him altogether, (which nobody did) then the very least they could do was get involved themselves to negate the possibility of Masherano getting the card. To answer your other point, Bennet wouldn't have booked three or four at the same time, it simply doesn't happen.

Experienced players have been known when the score is 0-0 at Home and going nowhere to deliberately start a ruck, an argument with the ref to get everyone fired up a bit. The same player would have run half the length of the pitch to join in with Masherano, to take over the argument from him, if needs be to get himself booked to ensure the Argentine didn't get the red.

  It's about playing as a team, having that winning mentality. People can disagree with the ethics of it all they like, but you just don't let a bloke who's ona booking remonstrate with the ref on his own. That's all I'm saying really.

To be honest, that was less aimed at you and more at others earlier in the thread.

I don't think we should hound the ref in groups but I do agree that someone on the team should have stopped Masch. I played footy years ago with a mate who would complain about everything. Even if he'd scored a hat-trick he'd be chasing the ref to complain about a decision he didn't get. He wasn't offensive (he believed in justice - something that doesn't exist in football) but he needed to be controlled. I spent half my game calming him down and talking to the ref for him. I'm not a pro and I'd be lucky to get in any pro side so why can't professionals on £60k + a week realise they should protect their team-mates?

The FA need to come down strongly on anyone who hounds or offensively questions them. If that means booking 6 players at a time then so be it.

What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:01 am

Mick I agree with playing as a team but I don't think surrounding the ref is the right way to go about things. I've seen numerous people complain about Chelsea and how they intimidate refs because of Terry moaning. Is that the way you want us to carry on?

I personally don't. I'd rather see us accept whatever decision a ref makes or go over and talk to him calmly. Not carry on with foul language and hound him like a mob. A ref is more likely to be lenient with us if we accept his decisions. Mascheranho would of been on the pitch till half time if he didn't go and protest. I take your point about the rest of the team, if they'd been there supporting him then he wouldn't of got sent off, but it was our free kick so I didn't see the point in moaning anyway. Bennett was never going to call Ferdinand back just because Torres and then Mascheranho chirpped away at him. Our free kick and we resulted in a booking and a red card ???

Refs all stick together as well, so now not only will Bennett have it in for Mascheranho for future games so will the rest of the men in black. So Mascheranho has put himself at risk and the side because he lost his head. I don't call that passion, I call that sheer stupidity.
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4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:11 am

Bammo wrote:What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.

This came up on you're on sky sports with Perry Groves on Saturday, don't know if anybody saw it or not, but Groves' reasoning and to a large extent I agree with him was miccing the refs up wouldn't help so much because actions speak louder than words anyway. You can see what players feel anyway with the actions and they make towards the officials. So I think everyone knows what's being said anyway even if not the exact words

As for the parents, well again with Perry Groves, it's parents he blames because of sunday league footy where parents are letting their kids of 8 and older carry on like Mascheranho did. He thinks if we sort grass root football out, then tomorrow's world stars won't carry on like that. That's what happens in rugby, their brought up to respect officials whereas in football kids sit there and complain even at a young age. I don't know how we can cut it out of premiership football right now and I was speaking to me lad about it last night and we both agreed that fining them doesn't hurt them because of the money they make anyway. Losing out on a couple of weeks wages wouldn't affect say Ashley Cole, so I don't know how modern day top flight footballers would be affected, but if we can sort grass root football out, then the future may be brighter.
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3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby Raj_Xedos » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:18 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bammo wrote:What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.

This came up on you're on sky sports with Perry Groves on Saturday, don't know if anybody saw it or not, but Groves' reasoning and to a large extent I agree with him was miccing the refs up wouldn't help so much because actions speak louder than words anyway. You can see what players feel anyway with the actions and they make towards the officials. So I think everyone knows what's being said anyway even if not the exact words

As for the parents, well again with Perry Groves, it's parents he blames because of sunday league footy where parents are letting their kids of 8 and older carry on like Mascheranho did. He thinks if we sort grass root football out, then tomorrow's world stars won't carry on like that. That's what happens in rugby, their brought up to respect officials whereas in football kids sit there and complain even at a young age. I don't know how we can cut it out of premiership football right now and I was speaking to me lad about it last night and we both agreed that fining them doesn't hurt them because of the money they make anyway. Losing out on a couple of weeks wages wouldn't affect say Ashley Cole, so I don't know how modern day top flight footballers would be affected, but if we can sort grass root football out, then the future may be brighter.

so what your saying is that lets take all the passion out of football.

tell you what, lets have no tackling, no talking and while we're there lets take the crowds out aswell....

its comments like that ruin the game of football....actions speak louder than words!

Masch had every right to ask the ref 'what happened'? Maybe masch apprciates torres's english isnt the best and questioned why he got the card.
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Postby redrover » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:20 am

ferguson is nausiating. "dissent is dissent". oh right so what would you have him do sir b.ollix bite his tongue and ring up the referees boss that night and give him a b.ollicking down the phone ? hypocritical blue nose alcholic b.astard. sorry lads talk on
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Postby Raj_Xedos » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:24 am

redrover wrote:ferguson is nausiating. "dissent is dissent". oh right so what would you have him do sir b.ollix bite his tongue and ring up the referees boss that night and give him a b.ollicking down the phone ? hypocritical blue nose alcholic b.astard. sorry lads talk on

lol red rover.....a valid rant.

what would fergie have said if the ref booked rooney for everytime he told the ref to fook.off??
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:46 am

Raj_Xedos wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bammo wrote:What I'd do is mic the refs up like in rugby. Allow the crowd and TV to hear what is said and the ref's explanation for decisions. Unfortunately it won't happen because of the premier league. Graham Poll was interviewed on footy focus and said the FA wanted the mic's recorded but the Premier League said they'd remove them if they were recorded. I'd assume that's because their marketing ploy of "the best league in the world" wouldn't work if parents heard what the role-models of their kids said.

This came up on you're on sky sports with Perry Groves on Saturday, don't know if anybody saw it or not, but Groves' reasoning and to a large extent I agree with him was miccing the refs up wouldn't help so much because actions speak louder than words anyway. You can see what players feel anyway with the actions and they make towards the officials. So I think everyone knows what's being said anyway even if not the exact words

As for the parents, well again with Perry Groves, it's parents he blames because of sunday league footy where parents are letting their kids of 8 and older carry on like Mascheranho did. He thinks if we sort grass root football out, then tomorrow's world stars won't carry on like that. That's what happens in rugby, their brought up to respect officials whereas in football kids sit there and complain even at a young age. I don't know how we can cut it out of premiership football right now and I was speaking to me lad about it last night and we both agreed that fining them doesn't hurt them because of the money they make anyway. Losing out on a couple of weeks wages wouldn't affect say Ashley Cole, so I don't know how modern day top flight footballers would be affected, but if we can sort grass root football out, then the future may be brighter.

so what your saying is that lets take all the passion out of football.

tell you what, lets have no tackling, no talking and while we're there lets take the crowds out aswell....

its comments like that ruin the game of football....actions speak louder than words!

Masch had every right to ask the ref 'what happened'? Maybe masch apprciates torres's english isnt the best and questioned why he got the card.

no I'm not saying lets take passion out of the game, I'm saying I don't think micing a ref up would be a good idea and I'm saying that respect must be given to and from officials.
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby NANNY RED » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:07 am

Anyone remember when Ellery was miked up and Tony Adams let him have it Cheat he called him
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:26 am

david ellery was a :censored: ref.

best ref incident though was Paul Allcock being pushed over by Paulo Di Canio :laugh:
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2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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