How much do the media influence us? - Liverpool - are we lucky?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:19 am

One of the best articles I have read in a while. A couple of things have really been getting under my skin recently and I believe that this guy Paul Jones hits the nail on the head.

How is it that Wenger doesnt win anything for years, sits in 5th ages off the pace and not a word is said. The press tell Rafa how to do things time and time again, and well if you read the article below you should see how they are wrong 90% of the time. Really makes me wonder how much the media influence us as fans in regard to how we view our team and in particular our manager. How is it that so many fans want Benitez out? The media tells me that I should not be proud of any of our result, that we are never convincing and that Rafa is one mistake away (his fault or not) from being sacked. Its all :censored:

I say we should hold our heads high and be proud of where we are and enjoy our journey towards what could be our year. Anyway, hope you enjoy the article as much as I did. Definitely worth the read.


Lucky, lucky Liverpool

I think we all knew what the headlines were going to be as soon as Fernando Torres nodded in that 92nd minute winner. As the men on the pitch and the fans in the stand celebrated in the way only a last minute winner can be, the hacks in the press box had already written their match reports; and there's no way they were re-writing their critical words of the manager and his selections just because of a late winner.

"Late Torres winner gets manager off the hook"

"Rafa the rotator strikes lucky"

The lazy press, bar the odd few exceptions, seem to have a typecast of each club and report on that typecast no matter what.

For Arsenal they are brilliant to watch, producing flowing football and have some of the best youngsters around. Yet Wenger is never criticised, despite going without silverware for over 5 years and currently 12 points off the pace in the league and in grave danger of missing out on a Champions League slot for next season.

Chelsea have spent incredible sums of money, yet are currently sat 4th in the league, dropped yet more points at home over the weekend and have won only 4 of their last 11 matches. But they are known as a brilliant counter attacking side and one of Europe's best. A handful of fans may have unfurled a "Scolari Out" banner over the weekend, but you won't find the nation's press and media asking questions of him. I put that banner and the booing down to the small time "new fan" Chelsea have following them these days. A side with only 3 league titles and no European Cup wins in their entire history now trying to hound out a manager halfway through a season as they've dropped a few points.

Anyway, back to the point being made.

Every time Liverpool concede a goal from a set piece it's put down to zonal marking. The pundits hark on about it in every post-match analysis, stating how they don't like it and it doesn't work. Yet non of them have enough of a brain to realise that Liverpool have had the best defensive record in the league over the past 3 or 4 years using that system. Non of them ever question the man marking system when another side concedes a goal from a set piece do they? It's lazy and it's all part of the typecast associated with each club.

They state we are nothing without Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard and will struggle in a big way without them. Yet somehow we've managed to sit top of the league for large parts of the season, with Torres spending most of that time sitting in the stands through injury. We managed to beat United at home without Torres or Gerrard in the side. We beat Chelsea away without Torres in the side. We beat Portsmouth on Saturday without Gerrard in the side. All of which is ignored when reverting to type in writing those reports or asking questions at a press conference.

Where Alex Ferguson rests his players and keeps his players fresh, Benitez rotates or drops them; damaging their confidence and ruining all chance we have of winning the league. When Man Utd win by the odd goal away from home despite hardly having a shot on target, they are deemed unstoppable. When Liverpool win by the odd goal away from home, despite having chances to score 6 or 7 goals, we are deemed lucky.

The side Benitez sent out at the weekend surprised everyone. We can argue the rights and wrongs of it until Lescott's wife comes home, but he got the result, came home with 3 points and the key players were only required for the last quarter of the game at most. Job done. The game could have been, and should have been, over long before then. We had enough chances to win it before the introduction of the so called rested stars. That was always the plan. To try and win the game with the side put out, and if not, then the others were on the bench to come on and change things if needed. It worked, and yet the manager is still grilled post-match over his selection and policy of resting players.

Torres, Alonso and Kuyt all had gruelling games in midweek against Everton and left the field on their knees. All will be turning out for their countries this week, and I think Rafa knows that they will play for the majority of those games, so wanted to give them a chance to rest. Even if they play the full 90 minutes for their countries, they will have had a rest this weekend, and then have another week or so off until our next game, returning with batteries recharged.

That result put us back top of the league, albeit for only 24 hours, yet the manager was being interrogated in the way he would if we'd just drawn away from home at relegation candidates and looked in grave danger of missing out on the lucrative top 4 finish; a little bit like Arsene Wenger maybe? I wonder if he was dragged over hot coals yesterday afternoon after falling further behind in the race for 4th place, never mind the race for the title.

The media treatment of Rafa Benitez is a disgrace.

I was critical of him after the Wigan game, mainly for his removal of Steven Gerrard and the defensive approach to those games. And I still think that criticism was justified, as is all constructive criticism when required. But when the criticism is constant, no matter what the result, then it starts to become a little tedious.

On Saturday we may have started with a different system and players in unfamiliar positions, but for me, it was an improved performance from other recent games on the road. We attacked, and even when we went 1-0 and 2-1 down, I still thought we were going to win the game. We went forward, attacked in numbers and I just knew it was a matter of time before we scored again. That's something I couldn't say about the games at Stoke and Wigan, and it was a refreshing change. We ended the game with Torres, Kuyt, Babel and Benayoun playing upfront and going for it, which is exactly the way we need to be finishing those games, as there is no margin for error anymore. Every game is a must win.

Is it too much to ask for games to be reported on, without letting a vendetta against a manager dictate the tone of that report?

Paul Jones
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Postby red_guy » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:42 am

An excellent read. :;):  ...anyway about the zonal marking thing, i guess it's safe to say that West Brom did use zonal marking since they have the worst defensive record this season. :D
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Postby NiftyNeil » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:48 am

It's a good article. It points out what a lot of us have been going on about for a while.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:51 am

the media have been calling for wengers head this season and speculating he is on his way out
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Postby ulswater » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:03 am

An excellent post.

The fans I know all seem to be sucked into to the media's lazy reporting.  All of them saying we were lucky against Portsmouth, there was nothing lucky about it, if it were Man U or any other team it would have been hailed as strenght of squad and fighting spirit, but of course LFC were lucky.


I've had to stop watching any of Sky's pre/post match analysis for a long while now as it has just become ridiculous.

Also Sunday Supplement is a good example, it is more about the egos of the journalists and the story's they can make up to keep themselves in print and on the TV, and for the most they fail to realize there are clubs outside of London, everything seems to always go back to Chelsea and Arsenal.

I think the OP has it spot on.
Last edited by ulswater on Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:30 am

Espionage wrote:Yet none of them have enough of a brain to realise that Liverpool have had the best defensive record in the league over the past 3 or 4 years using that system.


Oooops, someone else claiming we have the best defensive record without checking facts - rather silly to accuse them of not having enough of a brain when walking straight into a ninny trap of making inaccurate claims (oh irony is sweet)

Premiership Goals Conceded - Past 3 years (reverse order)

Chelsea : 26+24+22 = 72
Liverpool : 28+27+25 = 80
Man Utd : 22+27+34 = 83

Premiership Goals Conceded - Past 4 years (reverse order)

Chelsea : 26+24+22+15 = 87
Liverpool : 28+27+25+41 = 121
Man Utd : 22+27+34+26 = 109

WHOOPS!

And if you're thinking there may be reprieve if you fiddle with the original statement over which years, Chelsea have conceded less Premiership goals than us EVERY season since Rafa arrived - 15 to our 17 this season if you want to squeeze in this season as well. Maybe you could claim that we conceded less goals than anyone else during one of our runs of clean sheets :rolleyes: Of course if you removed all our goals conceded by virtue of zonal marking alone, that record may well be lower than Chelsea's................... Who should be marking Cahill? Anyone? Two goals straight away down to poor/no marking. Replay with Kuyt man2man on Cahill = no goals from set-pieces, just a silly goal from poor defending late into extra time.

In a way you've proved something, people will believe what someone else feeds them when it suits them. We are lucky at times, scoring late winners etc, but it does involve some skill as much as any goal at any time does. The sequence can often point towards luck, if you score three goals quickly after the break then it's luckier than if you score three goals in the first half. The mancs are the exception, the media are so far up their Rs they rarely need luck to do anything - their diving, fouling, barracking the ref, play-acting etc is all 'skill'. Quite how the manc fans can sit on their high horses about how 'superior' they are (had it from a colleague the other day - pr@t), when they needed to spend lots of money and cheat in order to be the best, I will never know.

Zonal marking is a problem, like it or not. It's not that we concede lots of goals, but the goals we concede are often sloppy and too frequently down to poor or non-existent marking - often from set-pieces. Switch off your mind to the fact people blame it every time and switch on your mind to the fact that we could be many points better off if the silly defensive mistakes were eradicated. No silly equaliser against the bitters, no silly equaliser against Wigan, probably still in the FA Cup and probably more if I could be bothered to look back further. And how many near misses do we get away with at the back on top of the silly goals? Our defensive record is pretty good, partly because we have a lot of the ball in games, but also because the opposition don't score all their chances same as us.

We have one of these type threads to try and "put the media/dissenters straight", but frankly it's no more informed, true or even accurate in it's portrayal of things than that which it sets out to put straight. We know the media loves to dismiss all things Liverpool as lucky, that zonal marking is a bad neighbour, but what you (all) need to realise is that is what the rest of the country/world wants to read, see and hear. Since Liverpool fans don't/shouldn't buy the s*n, why should that rag look to appeal to us? In the same way this thread sits nicely with it's readers because it is what they want to believe, the portrayal of us by the media sits nicely with most of the rest.
Last edited by Owzat on Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:35 am

and Rafa rather dug that hole for himself re his treatment. We criticise him the same as anyone else but apparently if anyone else does it then it's a "disgrace". Talk about one set of rules for us, another for everybody else............ Starting line-ups, tactics, substitutions, needing late goals and treatment of players are seriously big question marks over Rafa's head. So what if we went top for 24 hours? Some of us prematurely celebrated being top weeks ago and look where that got us - second............
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:46 am

Owzat wrote:
Espionage wrote:Yet none of them have enough of a brain to realise that Liverpool have had the best defensive record in the league over the past 3 or 4 years using that system.


Oooops, someone else claiming we have the best defensive record without checking facts - rather silly to accuse them of not having enough of a brain when walking straight into a ninny trap of making inaccurate claims (oh irony is sweet)

Premiership Goals Conceded - Past 3 years (reverse order)

Chelsea : 26+24+22 = 72
Liverpool : 28+27+25 = 80
Man Utd : 22+27+34 = 83

Premiership Goals Conceded - Past 4 years (reverse order)

Chelsea : 26+24+22+15 = 87
Liverpool : 28+27+25+41 = 121
Man Utd : 22+27+34+26 = 109

WHOOPS!

And if you're thinking there may be reprieve if you fiddle with the original statement over which years, Chelsea have conceded less Premiership goals than us EVERY season since Rafa arrived - 15 to our 17 this season if you want to squeeze in this season as well. Maybe you could claim that we conceded less goals than anyone else during one of our runs of clean sheets :rolleyes: Of course if you removed all our goals conceded by virtue of zonal marking alone, that record may well be lower than Chelsea's................... Who should be marking Cahill? Anyone? Two goals straight away down to poor/no marking. Replay with Kuyt man2man on Cahill = no goals from set-pieces, just a silly goal from poor defending late into extra time.

In a way you've proved something, people will believe what someone else feeds them when it suits them. We are lucky at times, scoring late winners etc, but it does involve some skill as much as any goal at any time does. The sequence can often point towards luck, if you score three goals quickly after the break then it's luckier than if you score three goals in the first half. The mancs are the exception, the media are so far up their Rs they rarely need luck to do anything - their diving, fouling, barracking the ref, play-acting etc is all 'skill'. Quite how the manc fans can sit on their high horses about how 'superior' they are (had it from a colleague the other day - pr@t), when they needed to spend lots of money and cheat in order to be the best, I will never know.

Zonal marking is a problem, like it or not. It's not that we concede lots of goals, but the goals we concede are sloppy and down to poor or non-existent marking - often from set-pieces. Switch off your mind to the fact people blame it every time and switch on your mind to the fact that we could be many points better off if the silly defensive mistakes were eradicated. No silly equaliser against the bitters, no silly equaliser against Wigan, probably still in the FA Cup and probably more if I could be bothered to look back further. And how many near misses do we get away with at the back on top of the silly goals? Our defensive record is pretty good, partly because we have a lot of the ball in games, but also because the opposition don't score all their chances same as us.

We have one of these type threads to try and "put the media/dissenters straight", but frankly it's no more informed, true or even accurate in it's portrayal of things than that which it sets out to put straight. We know the media loves to dismiss all things Liverpool as lucky, that zonal marking is a bad neighbour, but what you (all) need to realise is that is what the rest of the country/world wants to read, see and hear. Since Liverpool fans don't/shouldn't buy the s*n, why should that rag look to appeal to us? In the same way this thread sits nicely with it's readers because it is what they want to believe, the portrayal of us by the media sits nicely with most of the rest.

I dont like it how you are quoting the author of that article but it says my name!

I remember a stat somewhere saying that our goals conceded from set-pieces was the lowest or among the lowest. But I guess for that stat to be more accurate you should use a set-piece as % of total goals conceded.

But still, carrying on about how stupid the system is every time we concede a goal is not fair on us as a club or Rafael Benitez.

In my opinion, we make much more of a lot of issues (zonal marking included) because the media tells us to. Sure things should be discussed, but its not fun having other fans tell us how retarded everything about our club is and then citing all football pundits as resources. That is why its easier for fans who know less about football to call for Rafa's head.

Lets just hope the Yanks dont fall for the media spin  :(
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:54 am

Owzat wrote:Starting line-ups, tactics, substitutions, needing late goals and treatment of players are seriously big question marks over Rafa's head.

Starting line ups - maybe
Tactics - always been the same
substitutions - Managers subs are always questioned when things go wrong
Needing late goals - Same as everyone
Treatment of player - Maybe

So thats two maybes, one always been the same and two that are the same as everyone one else.
So what if we went top for 24 hours? Some of us prematurely celebrated being top weeks ago and look where that got us - second............


Speak for yourself, who is us anyway? Furthermore, you prematurely celebrating had no effect on how our team performed, Man united's good form combined with our bad form and bad luck put as there. Lets not call things what they are not.
Last edited by Espionage on Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:55 am

Espionage wrote:
Owzat wrote:Starting line-ups, tactics, substitutions, needing late goals and treatment of players are seriously big question marks over Rafa's head.

Starting line ups - maybe
Tactics - no
substitutions - Managers subs are always questioned when things go wrong
Needing late goals - Same as everyone
Treatment of player - Maybe

So thats two maybes, one no and two that are the same as everyone one else.


In your opinion. How his tactics are right needs a lot more than a "no". When do Rafa's subs go right before Pompey?

Espionage wrote:
Owzat wrote:So what if we went top for 24 hours? Some of us prematurely celebrated being top weeks ago and look where that got us - second............


Speak for yourself, who is us anyway? Furthermore, you prematurely celebrating had no effect on how our team performed, Man united's good form combined with our bad form and bad luck put as there. Lets not call things what they are not.


"Us" being some of the people on this forum and indeed globally - didn't require rocket science to work that one out. Personally I had muted celebration since I was all too aware the mancs had games in hand and could not be written off. Of course it had no effect on the team's performance, did I say it did? But YOUR starter mentions us going top, I was pointing out the lack of significance or relevance in the greater scheme of things.

And what "bad luck" have we had? Cite injuries and I can point to Man Utd losing Rooney and Ferdinand recently. And why shouldn't we call things they are not when you do? By my reckoning I call things as they are, it's YOU who's dressing it up in the way that suits you. You stated a fact that was incorrect to start with, and now you're adding "bad luck" to a host of irrelevancies.

You state my/our "prematurely celebrating had no effect on how our team performed" yet somehow you feel strongly enough about what others say about us to post a long whinge. Funnily enough what windbags like Andy Gray and company say about us had "no effect on how our team performed" either. You are trying to make out they are bang out of order when they hit as many valid points as members on here. Bury your head in the sand, nitpick over who "they" and "we" refer to and reply to me in a way totally reflecting your own point of view and pretending like the gaping holes in your argument aren't there.

Shame this isn't the BBC 606 boards, I bet you'd have edited your post and deleted mine  :laugh:  Feel free to reply, this thread ran its course the last time someone threw their toys out the pram over similar "issues". It doesn't discuss anything not discussed before or in other threads - zonal marking, luck etc. I've read it, it was probably a waste of my time bothering to point out the errors and obvious flaws, and there's little more to say since all you can do now is disagree - shocker that!
Last edited by Owzat on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:57 am

Hey i edited pretty quick
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Postby Owzat » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:08 am

Espionage wrote:Hey i edited pretty quick

Congratulations. Have a lollipop and pat yourself on the back that you're better at editing than making a valid point
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:34 am

Owzat wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Owzat wrote:Starting line-ups, tactics, substitutions, needing late goals and treatment of players are seriously big question marks over Rafa's head.

Starting line ups - maybe
Tactics - no
substitutions - Managers subs are always questioned when things go wrong
Needing late goals - Same as everyone
Treatment of player - Maybe

So thats two maybes, one no and two that are the same as everyone one else.


In your opinion. How his tactics are right needs a lot more than a "no". When do Rafa's subs go right before Pompey?

Espionage wrote:
Owzat wrote:So what if we went top for 24 hours? Some of us prematurely celebrated being top weeks ago and look where that got us - second............


Speak for yourself, who is us anyway? Furthermore, you prematurely celebrating had no effect on how our team performed, Man united's good form combined with our bad form and bad luck put as there. Lets not call things what they are not.


"Us" being some of the people on this forum and indeed globally - didn't require rocket science to work that one out. Personally I had muted celebration since I was all too aware the mancs had games in hand and could not be written off. Of course it had no effect on the team's performance, did I say it did? But YOUR starter mentions us going top, I was pointing out the lack of significance or relevance in the greater scheme of things.

You're so much smarter then "us" for not agreeing with what you said all of "us" thought.
And what "bad luck" have we had? Cite injuries and I can point to Man Utd losing Rooney and Ferdinand recently. And why shouldn't we call things they are not when you do? By my reckoning I call things as they are, it's YOU who's dressing it up in the way that suits you. You stated a fact that was incorrect to start with, and now you're adding "bad luck" to a host of irrelevancies.

Nice trying to cover your :censored:, I am not interested in having an epic internet argument about who did what and who mislead first.

You state my/our "prematurely celebrating had no effect on how our team performed" yet somehow you feel strongly enough about what others say about us to post a long whinge.

It seems that you are the one who feels strong enough to write a long reply trying to hijack a thread on the small point of zonal marking. The thread was about whether the media is influencing us. Start a new thread if you want.

Funnily enough what windbags like Andy Gray and company say about us had "no effect on how our team performed" either. You are trying to make out they are bang out of order when they hit as many valid points as members on here. Bury your head in the sand, nitpick over who "they" and "we" refer to and reply to me in a way totally reflecting your own point of view and pretending like the gaping holes in your argument aren't there

Shame this isn't the BBC 606 boards, I bet you'd have edited your post and deleted mine  :laugh:  Feel free to reply, this thread ran its course the last time someone threw their toys out the pram over similar "issues". It doesn't discuss anything not discussed before or in other threads - zonal marking, luck etc. I've read it, it was probably a waste of my time bothering to point out the errors and obvious flaws, and there's little more to say since all you can do now is disagree - shocker that!

The reason why I started this thread was because how much the media influences us has not been discussed in detail and I think it is worth discussing. Turning this thread into the zonal marking thread, or the luck thread was your idea and not really necessary because there are threads about those that already exist.
Last edited by Espionage on Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:37 am

Didnt catch me that time editing, now no one will ever no

:(
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Postby lakes10 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 am

It was a good read but most of it was :censored:, sorry but Rafa loves the press and uses them all the time, so when things dont gop right for him he can not blame them for having a pop at him, he was the same in this last job.

ok so why has it taken 4 years for the press to start to pick on Wenger? it has not, in fact 2 years ago they tried to push him out, big names left the club and the press were saying it was time for him to go...and the fans, what saved him? his contacts.

using his contacts he was able to pick up some young players and as he HAS WON THE PREM he still had the trust of the board, if he stays in his job this year i would not be shocked if his team come good next year.

IF YOU GET GIVEN A JOB TO WIN THE PREM AND YOU DO WIN IT THEN YOU GET EXTRA TIME, IF YOU DONT WIN THE PREM WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU AS YOUR MAIN AIM THEM DONT BE SHOCKED IF YOU GET BAD PRESS OR THE SACK.
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