How much do the media influence us? - Liverpool - are we lucky?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:51 am

lakes10 wrote:IF YOU GET GIVEN A JOB TO WIN THE PREM AND YOU DO WIN IT THEN YOU GET EXTRA TIME, IF YOU DONT WIN THE PREM WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU AS YOUR MAIN AIM THEM DONT BE SHOCKED IF YOU GET BAD PRESS OR THE SACK.

I dont agree with this, according to your logic if you are a big four club and you dont win the league the manager should be sacked. That would mean that Ferguson would have been sacked when Chelsea and Arsenal won it and Wenger and Rafa would be gone.

I dont want Liverpool to have 4 Managers in 17 months or whatever Chelsea will have when they appoint a new one. I'd prefer a longer term view.
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Postby lakes10 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 am

Espionage wrote:
lakes10 wrote:IF YOU GET GIVEN A JOB TO WIN THE PREM AND YOU DO WIN IT THEN YOU GET EXTRA TIME, IF YOU DONT WIN THE PREM WHEN IT WAS GIVEN TO YOU AS YOUR MAIN AIM THEM DONT BE SHOCKED IF YOU GET BAD PRESS OR THE SACK.

I dont agree with this, according to your logic if you are a big four club and you dont win the league the manager should be sacked. That would mean that Ferguson would have been sacked when Chelsea and Arsenal won it and Wenger and Rafa would be gone.

I dont want Liverpool to have 4 Managers in 17 months or whatever Chelsea will have when they appoint a new one. I'd prefer a longer term view.

you must start to live in the real world, if plum nose did not win the prem for two years there would be calls for him to go.

sad to say that today football is about money and big money, for a club to stay no1 they must win the Prem, we are in a new time of football, there are going to be new manager every two years at the big clubs, for some they will only be given 25 games to see what they can do before they get sacked, soon you will start to see short contracts with managers

Like it or not its going to happen.

the only why to stop this is to put wage cap on players and manager and cut the number of over sea;s born players to 4 per team.

will that happen? yes but not for a few years.
Last edited by lakes10 on Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GYBS » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:07 am

Didnt taggert go three years without winning the prem ? Cant remember many calls for him to be sacked.
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Postby lakes10 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:23 am

GYBS wrote:Didnt taggert go three years without winning the prem ? Cant remember many calls for him to be sacked.

when he first got the job we lived in old time, a few years ago if he had not won it in that 4th year he would have gone, he would not have been sacked he would have just left saying that at his age he needs to spend more time with his family, and yes some fans did say he should go, i remeber the time saying, "Time Up£ at the end of that 3rd year but over that summer he got some good players and the fans were happy again.
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Postby Effes » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:27 am

Espionage wrote:We can argue the rights and wrongs of it until Lescott's wife comes home,

I dont get that?
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Postby Sabre » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:32 am

Sometimes watching two countries fans and media gives you some extra perspective. In Spain I notice the press talks about Messi-dependency of Barcelona, and the people talks about Messi-dependency in Barcelona.

In England I notice when the pundits bang on rotation, Fans talk about rotation.

So, in different environments I notice the same coincidence, the fans talk about what the media talks about. At the very least, the media have the power to decide what topics will be over the table.

Not saying by this that people say what the media say, because some members here were wary of rotation way before the first journo talked about it. But I'll say that without doubt, the media decides what will be the topic of the moment.
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Postby we all dream... » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:12 am

Effes wrote:
Espionage wrote:We can argue the rights and wrongs of it until Lescott's wife comes home,

I dont get that?

We can talk about (insert what you want) untill the cows come home, but it won't make a difference... Is the saying.

I.E. Lescotts wife is a cow.

poor banter
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Postby bigmick » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:33 am

Owzat's posts earlier are brilliant IMHo and I enjoyed reading them. Once he picks you up on the stats, you are best just conceding straight away as he leaves you nowhere to go. It's just logic upon logic and I enjoyed reading that. He rarely picks me up, because I don't do many stats on account of the fact I absolutely always feck em up. Anyway, good stuff.

All that said, I think anyone who thinks that we have gotten a fair press under Rafa is deluded. The press positively bay for a reaosn to get into us, and although some of our fans are admittedly a tinsy wincy bit blinkered, they are right on this. The contrast between the reporting we get in all forms of the media and what the Mancs get, is so obvious it is embarassing. Chelsea too used to get great press under Mourinho, and I'd like to accept that as a given ( because to me it's absolutely beyond dispute) and ask why it is?

I think at its heart, there is xenophobia and racism, allied to some protectionism. I say that while fully admitting I've let my subscriptions to the "Rafa is God" club fall into deficit (I'm getting red ink demand letters now), I'm simply calling it how it is. But how can it be, how can it be even slightly possible that non-British managers such as Mourinho get a better press than other non-British managers like Benitez?

Here's how: Firstly Mourinho is good press. Always ready with a soundbite, an interview, a front page quote if you stand still with a microphone long enough. I'm not holding this up as a virtue of a manager I have lots of respect for, I am simply telling it as it is. I am not in the least, not even 1% criticising Rafa for not being like that, I am simply telling it as I see it. "Parking the bus" was Mourinho, and it's funny. It's funny because it encapsulates quite a complicated concept in three words. When Ferguson talked about the money at Chelsea's disposal, Mourinho fired back quick smart that of course money wasn't everything, Porto had nowhere near the money that Man Utd had but they'd still managed to beat them in the Champions League etc etc. All the "special one" stuff the press loved. It was b0ll0cks of course, but the press loved it because it sold papers, column inches and advertizing slots on SKY. Who was this fecker who was so sure of himself? That he came along and single handedly broke up the Status Quo of Arsenal and Man Utd was even better, a breath of fresh air.

It went deeper than that though. Mourinho gained the respect of his peers, he appeared to respect the fabric of the game in England. He went out of his way on every occasion to talk of the English League being the best in the World, he talked about other managers in glowing terms, high fived them after Chelsea had won, said his team had been "lucky" on occasions and talked of some of the English players he managed as being the best players in the World. The press loved all that, as did his players, and as did the other managers as well. His charisma won everyone within the game over, and as a result Chelsea got excellent press.

If you compare that to the treatment Scholari got, or Avram Grant, you see a marked contrast. In both cases my opinion is that they are excellent managers, and thoroughly decent men as well. Arguably, they are more thoroughly decent than Mourinho, but for the press there wasn't the same empathy, the same connection.

And Rafa is far more Scholari than Mourinho. You could see by the way the two embraced before we played Chelsea that there is mutual respect, two top coaches showing their mutual regard for each other. Mourinho talked about Rafa being "his friend" in the early days, but in actual fact there was no love lost. But here's even more to it than that. It's not just that Rafa isn't as press friendly as Mourinho, it goes deeper.

In Rafa, the press see an affront to English football. Not only is the methodology alien to what has been practiced over the previous 100 years, not only is there seemingly no attempt to doff the cap in the direction of tradition, but there is also at times a willingness to cast doubt on the fabric of our game. The press don't like that, and my guess is that football fans in general don't either.

So what do I mean? Well obviously the mass rotation from game one is a new idea over in England, yet to be successful. Not only though does Rafa practice it, he does it with an "I know best and you lot are feckwits" air of certainty. The professional game is being asked to accept that over all these years they have been doing it wrong, and it's a bitter pill to swallow. They want proof (as do we all come to that). Not only that, but Rafa has an uneasy relationship with the press, a reluctance to explain how he is thinking. Telling the press that Torres can't play against teams which defend deep may convince some, but anyone with any idea whatsoever of the game would know this was utter nonsense. The press in the most part do have some sort of isea and deserve better. And lastly, Rafa has in the past rounded upon certain figures who are stalwarts of the game in England, and complained about smaller teams tacitcs too much. I remember Houlliers "we knew he was a bad manager" line about Neil Warnock for instance and Raf has done too much of that . Now Neil Warnock might be the biggest c... walking the face of the earth, but he isn't a bad manager far from it. he has performed miracles at various league and non league clubs over the years. Anyone who doesn't belive me me should check his record, read what other players have said about him. You don't IMHO come into English football and slag off someone like that (who once again the press love) if you want to get a decent hearing. The British love an underdog, and they like people to behave with humility. At times we haven't done that.

It's no surprise if you read his book (and you should it's a good read) that warnock loves Ferguson. Always treated him wiht the utmost respect you see. My guess is that the world and his brother would rather see Man Utd win the title than us. Many will say feck em. Many will say that Rafa deserves more respect because he refuses to pander to the media. They may all be right, I'm simply as an Englishman trying to give a reason for things being the way they are.
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby radun5 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:38 am

Owzat, I think you are (again) way too keen to check the numbers and you fail to see the overall picture in the end.

Maybe the author was thinking of "set piece goals defensive record" , maybe he was manipulating the readers and never bothered to check the stats.

I will assume you are right, I won't check your numbers. Given your figures, we have clearly the SECOND defensive record in the Premiership, better than the Mancs and only beaten by Chelsea.

So is this what you intend to give as proof that we have in fact a really poor defensive system because of the zonal marking ?

Sorry but I don't buy it.

INMHO zonal marking is a very good system, and the conceded goals are mainly due to INDIVIDUAL mistakes (just like for the man-marking system). It is not the system's fault.
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Postby Sabre » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:50 am

Radun5, or how to make sense from Romania :)
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Postby Reg » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:57 am

Clearly the press influence some of the miserable, negative gíts on this forum more than others.

Time to kick this negativeness over the stand and back into Goodison.

Forza Reds!
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Postby red187 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:16 pm

Big Mick, I usually disagree with the majority of your posts, but I have to commend you on this latest one, probably one of the most well balanced and honest posts there has been on this site for a while.

Although I still don't believe that its Rafas fault how he has been treated by the English media I do agree that he hasn't helped matters recently. His retort at Red Nose gave the Man U biased press just another stick to beat our club with and once the press started writting the headlines that Rafa was cracking up, it took a matter of days for the Old Trafford prawn sandwich brigade to make a chant up around it.

For any one who doubts the biasness of the majority of the media, take a look at the post match analysis on Saturday night.

Craig Burley a man of obvious footballing intelligence stated in his infinite wisdom that for us to win the league we needed to be more like Man U and kill teams off, strange that because is that the same Man U that have won their last nine games 1-0. The same Man U that scored in the first minute against Wigan and couldn't manage any more.

I do think that sometimes we as supporters do need to take a step back from the intense media coverage our club gets. Over the last few weeks there have been more column inches dedicated to the internal war at Anfield than the ongoing war in the middle east. Liverpool football club sells papers and until that changes Journalists will continue to rehash old news stories as new and will continue to determine the mood and influence the discussions of Liverpool supporters
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Postby GYBS » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:19 pm

lakes10 wrote:
GYBS wrote:Didnt taggert go three years without winning the prem ? Cant remember many calls for him to be sacked.

when he first got the job we lived in old time, a few years ago if he had not won it in that 4th year he would have gone, he would not have been sacked he would have just left saying that at his age he needs to spend more time with his family, and yes some fans did say he should go, i remeber the time saying, "Time Up£ at the end of that 3rd year but over that summer he got some good players and the fans were happy again.

Im not talkihng about when he first got the job lakes - im talking about 03-04 , 04 -05 and 05 - 06 , he didnt win the league and pretty not much else as well and still no calls for him to be sacked.
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Postby Espionage » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:29 pm

bigmick wrote:Owzat's posts earlier are brilliant IMHo and I enjoyed reading them. Once he picks you up on the stats, you are best just conceding straight away as he leaves you nowhere to go. It's just logic upon logic and I enjoyed reading that. He rarely picks me up, because I don't do many stats on account of the fact I absolutely always feck em up. Anyway, good stuff.

Laughable....

They were not my stats but the authors

Also the reason I stopped is more like I couldnt be fcuked arguing because he is turning the thread into something its not. We would be arguing until Lescott's wife came home with the amount of points he wanted me to cover, dispute and quibble over.

Same way I couldnt be fcuked arguing with your post
Last edited by Espionage on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lakes10 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:49 pm

GYBS wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
GYBS wrote:Didnt taggert go three years without winning the prem ? Cant remember many calls for him to be sacked.

when he first got the job we lived in old time, a few years ago if he had not won it in that 4th year he would have gone, he would not have been sacked he would have just left saying that at his age he needs to spend more time with his family, and yes some fans did say he should go, i remeber the time saying, "Time Up£ at the end of that 3rd year but over that summer he got some good players and the fans were happy again.

Im not talkihng about when he first got the job lakes - im talking about 03-04 , 04 -05 and 05 - 06 , he didnt win the league and pretty not much else as well and still no calls for him to be sacked.

i was talking about 03-04 , 04 -05 and 05 - 06 ,some fans were saying he was past it but in the summer he got some good player to shut them up and WON, See thats the main they, he won it before, if you do that you almost have the  right to go 3 years without winning it again, and in the years he did not wim it he was still very  close, going down to the last few games or even the last game.
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