Liverpool FC Forum

[maypaxvobiscum]

I have been wrestling with whether Rafa should go or be given more time for over a year now. Every time I thought that I had made my mind up, something would happen that made me re-evaluate my thoughts, a good cup run, a great win over one of our rivals or another heart breaking performance and I would go back to the drawing board.

My reasons for finally deciding that IMO Rafa should NOT be offered another contract :-

1/ The football we play is neither attractive or more importantly proving to be successful. We struggle to break down teams poor teams and struggle to impose ourselves in games. After 5 years and £200million I think we deserve better.

2/ I think the off field bickering has been a disgrace, we are sadly watching our rivals "knock us off our fkn perch," while arguments rage over contracts and and who should have done what and when. Pathetic!

3/ The whole Keane business sickened me. It seemed it was more important to win the argument with Parry and prove a point, than to win games and maybe a title. To sell Keane and leave us without an adequate replacement shows (to me anyway ) where his priorities lie.

4/ I think he is letting his problems with Parry affect and cloud his judgement on football matters, and that cannot be allowed to continue. Players need to know they are in the team on merit not because a point is being made.

5/ I think we have seen quite a few players driven out of the club because of his poor man management skills and lack of insight. Too many player seem to be first rotated out of form never to recover, their confidence shattered, gradually eased further and further from the first team before eventually being transferred.

6/ The disgraceful carry on with the academy, not only has there been considerable damage done to the developement of our youth players, but also to the recruitment of young players in the future. It really doesn't really matter who is right or who is wrong if the very thing they are fighting over gets broken in the process.   

7/ Too many gambles on team selections and formations. Sometimes they work (or at least we get away with it) and sometimes they don't and we pay the price in dropped points. I think we should be trying to get a settled formation, put our best team out as often as possible and saying to the opposition "beat that", rather than worrying about what the opposition are going to do.

8/ Transfers - too many and not good enough ......... end of.

If I cast my eye back to the cups he has won with a hard eye and not the usual emotional one it also leads one to question his judgement. The CL FINAL - Everyone expected Hamann to play, and it was a terrible tactical decision to leave him out of the starting line up. Yes we eventually won on penalties, but we all know deep in our hearts that it was a one off and that miracles don't happen week in week out. The FA Cup final - again Hamann left out, and only the genius of Gerrard saved us that day. Again we won on penalties but this time not against the cream of Europe but a West Ham side that we should have played off the park. The CL(2) - I don't think anyone should be surprised we struggled to score with Kuyt as our main striker, maybe if we had brought Crouch on earlier or kept Mascherano on we may have forced penalties again. We didn't ..... and we didn't. 

I suppose it all really boils down to the fact that I have finally realised that if we couldn't win the league this season when we had every chance, we probably never will under Rafa. A good cup side, a top 4 side, but not a title winning side.

good post Sinner 

[DAV]

i was just wondering. If by some fluke we win the League, would all the anti RB supporters still want RB to leave.
And would all the Pro RB supporters claim that RB new what he was doing all along and say it was all down to him us winning the league. With tactics,rotation etc.

[redbeergoggles]

Rafa has done some amazing things which will go down in folklore. I just feel the team is well short of being title winners and as that team is in his image he has to take some responsibility. It woudn't be so bad if we were still battling the Mancs with three/four games to go be we're not and dare I suggest that the gap is more likely to widen than to close. Lets remember that Rafa said he wanted five years! Have we progressed that much? Thanks Rafa you brought some great times, we love you but, time up amigo.

The Mancs are ahead of everyone in the league not just us ,but we are the closest ,the thing that pains me the most is the mindset of teams and managers that visit their ground ,they are beaten before they get on the field ,until Liverpool develop that kind of fear in opponents prior to a match then its a lost cause ..

[redbeergoggles]

To suggest a manager who hasn't won a game convincingly since December 2008 isn't "the real problem at the club" is either naive, or relating to a completely different issue altogether. Deflecting focus onto the owners who don't pick the team, signings, tactics etc isn't all that clever, the same manager who beat Chelsea and Man Utd and can win games is using the same players who can't beat Wigan, Man City, Hull, Stoke (home or away), the bitters etc.

Are you seriously saying that you think Rafa has been able to go out and get the players he wants? If he'd been backed to the hilt then the quality of our squad would be significantly better than it is now as we'd have gone for quality over quantity.

I'd like to see the list that Rafa presented to the board each season and the players that he actually got from it. How many did he want even 'if' they where his 2nd or 3rd choice and who the board chose for him 'if' any?

Finally a post with clarity ,I knew the voice of reason would come from an older poster .....
Nice reply Mick

[loopyliverpool]

i was just wondering. If by some fluke we win the League, would all the anti RB supporters still want RB to leave.
And would all the Pro RB supporters claim that RB new what he was doing all along and say it was all down to him us winning the league. With tactics,rotation etc.

If by some fluke we do, then he should stay. But not many teams win the league by being flukey. I like Rafa. I just feel he is at the end of the line and can't take the team any further unless he is given carte blanche over transfers, which won't happen. We can't spend the same amount as the Mancs and are unlikely ever to do so. The manager at our club needs to have an eye for a player cos they are only gonna get £40-50m max to spend on players each year if they are lucky. Some lesser teams are spending that in the transfer window! If we judge Rafa on some of his less expensive buys you would have to say he is not exactly Wengeresque in the transfer market.

[redbeergoggles]

i was just wondering. If by some fluke we win the League, would all the anti RB supporters still want RB to leave.
And would all the Pro RB supporters claim that RB new what he was doing all along and say it was all down to him us winning the league. With tactics,rotation etc.

If by some fluke we do, then he should stay. But not many teams win the league by being flukey. I like Rafa. I just feel he is at the end of the line and can't take the team any further unless he is given carte blanche over transfers, which won't happen. We can't spend the same amount as the Mancs and are unlikely ever to do so. The manager at our club needs to have an eye for a player cos they are only gonna get £40-50m max to spend on players each year if they are lucky. Some lesser teams are spending that in the transfer window! If we judge Rafa on some of his less expensive buys you would have to say he is not exactly Wengeresque in the transfer market.

Wengeresque either thats a new word, or your just being facetious 

[redbeergoggles]

That post was fabregasesque

[taff]

i was just wondering. If by some fluke we win the League, would all the anti RB supporters still want RB to leave.
And would all the Pro RB supporters claim that RB new what he was doing all along and say it was all down to him us winning the league. With tactics,rotation etc.

Firstly I dont think that anybody wins the league by a fluke.  And if we do win it then I would say that Rafa has instilled a winning never say die attitude in the team but needs to learn from his mistakes, but I am confident he already would be learning.

If we did win it what would really depress me is that fans on here would blame Man Utd for losing it and not praise our team

[redbeergoggles]

i was just wondering. If by some fluke we win the League, would all the anti RB supporters still want RB to leave.
And would all the Pro RB supporters claim that RB new what he was doing all along and say it was all down to him us winning the league. With tactics,rotation etc.

Firstly I dont think that anybody wins the league by a fluke.  And if we do win it then I would say that Rafa has instilled a winning never say die attitude in the team but needs to learn from his mistakes, but I am confident he already would be learning.

If we did win it what would really depress me is that fans on here would blame Man Utd for losing it and not praise our team

Good post

[Dundalk]

Seen this on another forum.....

when Benitez arrived we were the 5th best team in the league - he didnt have a chance to buy anyone of note in his first season (indeed the first big decision he had to make was to try and persuade our top scorer from leaving for Real Madrid - which he was unable to do - thereby putting the shit team further in the shit) - even Everton finished above us that season - and we were over 30 points behind the league winners - Chelsea - who had pretty much bought up every good player in Europe at a cost of around what? £500 million or so in the previous couple of years.


what a level playing field eh? and people were moaning even then.

then - through tactical BRILLIANCE - he took us to Istanbul and the rest is history.

over the next few years we finished closer and closer to the eventual winners (except for the year he ALSO took us to another European final!!) - until Sunday at 3pm - WE BECAME WHAT WE HAD CRAVED TO BE FOR SO LONG - actual league title challengers.....

but oh my god - where were the great brilliant fluent arsenal side of the past decade? where were they under their brilliant - trophyless for 5 years - manager Arsene Wenger???

erm well mate - because Rafa has SLOWLY BUT SURELY been improving us year on year on year - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so then - top 3 were we? er no mate - we were actually second - at the end of Feb - WITH OUR BEST POINTS TOTAL SINCE 1991 AT THIS STAGE OF THE SEASON - (no improvement there for you then??? no???) (we have also - thanks to wembley74 i am told - hit the woodwork 18 times this season in the league - which is a premiership record for a season never mind until end February!!)

well what of the free-spending STABLE club that is Chelsea then? surely they were above us -- er no mate - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so who is left then? oh the team that have had the same manager - the same ethos - for over 20 years - the team that in that time have broken the British transfer record something like 8 times (erm remember mate? just like WE used to do BACK IN THE FUCKING DAY that is surely now dawning on you is another universe???) - the team that the MEDIA love - the team that have (and this may come as a surprise to you ALL!! - so sit down will you and prepare yourself for this shock!) BETTER PLAYERS THAN US!!


oh moan moan but rafa has spent millions hasnt he though - hes wasted a load of money - its all his fault we're not multiple trophy winners blah - boring daily mail, mirror, star reading pricks


er he has spent a lot of money yes - but guess what? - do you wanna sit down for a bit whilst i regale you with yet more FACTS and LOGIC...


utd have spent MORE than us. UTD have better players than us.

they have a better squad than us.

the dynamics of football have changed considerably in the past 20 years.

even further in fact.

YOU KNOW WHAT FACTOR DETERMINES THE LEAGUE WINNERS MORE THAN ANY OTHER?

SINCE THE END OF THE MINIMUM WAGE THE TITLE HAS GONE - ALMOST WITHOUT EXCEPTION (the exceptions being the likes of derby in the early 70s and forest late 70s) - GONE TO THE TEAM THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY ON PLAYERS. city in the late 60s, everton too, leeds, then us, then Blackburn, then arsenal, then utd. almost without exception that is the most important factor when trying to win the league.

utd have more money than us. FACT. we wanted Vidic - we offered the amount his escape clause said - utd came in and offered £2m more. FACT

ok - we could have won more games at home than we have. Rafa makes sometime puzzling substitutions and tactical decisions. but make no mistake - if he had had even a quarter of the backing that Ferguson has had at united then we would be pissing the league. having to spend around £6 million on players is - and i cant believe I'm saying this to be honest - is  shite - that only buys you average players at best - unless you are very very lucky - and as we have seen - Rafa just isn't that lucky is he? if he was he would surely have the backing of OUR FAMOUS SUPPORT wouldn't he?

if people want to be that fickle - if they want to jib a manager who hasn't won the league in his five years here (cos its dead fucking easy isn't it to win the English league? - (i mean all you need is less money than your main rivals - bickering board members who are trying to get rid of you AND sell the club - and a starting position that was years behind them let alone 35 points) - who has taken us to two European cup finals in five years - winning one on the greatest game the competition has ever seen - who hasn't had the same financial backing as other top clubs - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - and who has shown this season that all his hard work has finally paid off - we ARE challengers now - before he came we just weren't and never looked like we would be - who has - from day 1 - been playing against a media that hates him/us - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - then if you want that - fuck off and support someone like Newcastle ffs.

Get fucking real.

[bunglemark2]

Can't help wondering if there's a deliberate typo in the title to this thread...."neigh" ??

Anyway, my tuppence worth.....

Standing, as I normally do on a Sunday evening, in front of the TV in front of an ironing board, getting busily through a whole pile of laundry, I decided for the heck of it I'd tune into LFC TV to see what wondrous tales they might have to tell....To see if perchance there was some semblance of an explanation for the performance on the day, dare I say of the prospects for the rest of the season....

Two things struck me: The first thing was that the programme on at the time was a replay of a LFC vs Real Madrid final, where the glorious and illustrious names such as Souness, Dalglish, Thompson and Kennedy (amongst others) played a - on paper anyway - better team and played them off the pitch. The heart, the courage and commitment was incredible, right up to the point when only a fingertip save at the death prevented a cross from dropping onto the head of Dalglish, which would have made it 2-0. I was astounded by the energy, the never-say-die attitude, and the pure determination to win.....Perhaps this was a symptom of an era when there were no prima donnas on the pitch, and where Mr. Paisly instilled a pride in the wearing of that shirt....

The next programme was a "Ten best Premier League wins under Rafa...". Looking at the first ten seconds of it, I thought to myself "How sad is this ?. Here is a dedicated supporters channel reliving the best vistories from years back (when Biscan, Baros, Cisse and others were in the squad )and this is what we have degenerated to ?". In a season where we briefly were the masters of our own destiny, yet we conspired to ruin it....

Is Rafa alone responsible ? No, I don't believe he is. But the lack of killer instinct, the refusal to go for the jugular and kill off Stoke/West Ham/Everton/Man City...and whoever else, just tells me that the man is just not "killer" enough to win us the title.

For me, his time should be up.

[bunglemark2]

Seen this on another forum.....

when Benitez arrived we were the 5th best team in the league - he didnt have a chance to buy anyone of note in his first season (indeed the first big decision he had to make was to try and persuade our top scorer from leaving for Real Madrid - which he was unable to do - thereby putting the shit team further in the shit) - even Everton finished above us that season - and we were over 30 points behind the league winners - Chelsea - who had pretty much bought up every good player in Europe at a cost of around what? £500 million or so in the previous couple of years.


what a level playing field eh? and people were moaning even then.

then - through tactical BRILLIANCE - he took us to Istanbul and the rest is history.

over the next few years we finished closer and closer to the eventual winners (except for the year he ALSO took us to another European final!!) - until Sunday at 3pm - WE BECAME WHAT WE HAD CRAVED TO BE FOR SO LONG - actual league title challengers.....

but oh my god - where were the great brilliant fluent arsenal side of the past decade? where were they under their brilliant - trophyless for 5 years - manager Arsene Wenger???

erm well mate - because Rafa has SLOWLY BUT SURELY been improving us year on year on year - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so then - top 3 were we? er no mate - we were actually second - at the end of Feb - WITH OUR BEST POINTS TOTAL SINCE 1991 AT THIS STAGE OF THE SEASON - (no improvement there for you then??? no???) (we have also - thanks to wembley74 i am told - hit the woodwork 18 times this season in the league - which is a premiership record for a season never mind until end February!!)

well what of the free-spending STABLE club that is Chelsea then? surely they were above us -- er no mate - WE HAVE SEEN THEM OFF.

so who is left then? oh the team that have had the same manager - the same ethos - for over 20 years - the team that in that time have broken the British transfer record something like 8 times (erm remember mate? just like WE used to do BACK IN THE FUCKING DAY that is surely now dawning on you is another universe???) - the team that the MEDIA love - the team that have (and this may come as a surprise to you ALL!! - so sit down will you and prepare yourself for this shock!) BETTER PLAYERS THAN US!!


oh moan moan but rafa has spent millions hasnt he though - hes wasted a load of money - its all his fault we're not multiple trophy winners blah - boring daily mail, mirror, star reading pricks


er he has spent a lot of money yes - but guess what? - do you wanna sit down for a bit whilst i regale you with yet more FACTS and LOGIC...


utd have spent MORE than us. UTD have better players than us.

they have a better squad than us.

the dynamics of football have changed considerably in the past 20 years.

even further in fact.

YOU KNOW WHAT FACTOR DETERMINES THE LEAGUE WINNERS MORE THAN ANY OTHER?

SINCE THE END OF THE MINIMUM WAGE THE TITLE HAS GONE - ALMOST WITHOUT EXCEPTION (the exceptions being the likes of derby in the early 70s and forest late 70s) - GONE TO THE TEAM THAT SPENDS THE MOST MONEY ON PLAYERS. city in the late 60s, everton too, leeds, then us, then Blackburn, then arsenal, then utd. almost without exception that is the most important factor when trying to win the league.

utd have more money than us. FACT. we wanted Vidic - we offered the amount his escape clause said - utd came in and offered £2m more. FACT

ok - we could have won more games at home than we have. Rafa makes sometime puzzling substitutions and tactical decisions. but make no mistake - if he had had even a quarter of the backing that Ferguson has had at united then we would be pissing the league. having to spend around £6 million on players is - and i cant believe I'm saying this to be honest - is  shite - that only buys you average players at best - unless you are very very lucky - and as we have seen - Rafa just isn't that lucky is he? if he was he would surely have the backing of OUR FAMOUS SUPPORT wouldn't he?

if people want to be that fickle - if they want to jib a manager who hasn't won the league in his five years here (cos its dead fu[b/]cking easy isn't it to win the English league? - (i mean all you need is less money than your main rivals - bickering board members who are trying to get rid of you AND sell the club - and a starting position that was years behind them let alone 35 points) - who has taken us to two European cup finals in five years - winning one on the greatest game the competition has ever seen - who hasn't had the same financial backing as other top clubs - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - and who has shown this season that all his hard work has finally paid off - we [b]ARE challengers now - before he came we just weren't and never looked like we would be - who has - from day 1 - been playing against a media that hates him/us - who has constantly been playing catch up with these very same clubs - then if you want that - fuck off and support someone like Newcastle ffs.

Get fucking real.

Some interesting stats there mate, but I can't help wondering how Greece won the Euro Championship a couple of years back, against supposedly much superior teams....Money doesn't necessarily mean a carte blanche to picking up every piece of silverware available...

[Dundalk]

Greece won a championship once and had their fair share of luck

Liverpool won the Champions League AND got to another final AND got to the semis as well

That cant all be luck

[taff]

Ok if his time is up then who in their right mind would want the job with the obvious trouble at board level etc etc etc etc.

If we got Mourinho and 500 million then why not eh just to shut up the miserable brigade but thats not likely is it. 

Imagine the advert for the job.  Wanted premiership manager to win the league. No control over transfers and the owners will use you in the media but dont you dare do the same.  Make do with who we buy you and dont moan about no contracts being offered to existing players.  Win everything or we will hate you.

[Emerald Red]

To suggest a manager who hasn't won a game convincingly since December 2008 isn't "the real problem at the club" is either naive, or relating to a completely different issue altogether. Deflecting focus onto the owners who don't pick the team, signings, tactics etc isn't all that clever, the same manager who beat Chelsea and Man Utd and can win games is using the same players who can't beat Wigan, Man City, Hull, Stoke (home or away), the bitters etc.

Are you seriously saying that you think Rafa has been able to go out and get the players he wants? If he'd been backed to the hilt then the quality of our squad would be significantly better than it is now as we'd have gone for quality over quantity.

I'd like to see the list that Rafa presented to the board each season and the players that he actually got from it. How many did he want even 'if' they where his 2nd or 3rd choice and who the board chose for him 'if' any?

Finally a post with clarity ,I knew the voice of reason would come from an older poster .....
Nice reply Mick

Yes, it's a good post, but one that just dismissed outright as an excuse by many. It's not an excuse. It's fact. I don't give a f*ck what anyone says, no matter what manager takes over LFC, they have a very, very tall order of winning the league, if not next to impossible one. It's time some of the fickle fans stop stamping their feet, spitting the dummy, and then start pointing accusing fingers and voices of descent towards the manager as if he's the main the problem. Go ahead. Sack the man. I for one will be dreading it simply for the aforementioned reasons. A new manager will take over and be left in the same boat as the last one. A sinking ship infested with rats that is the board room of this football club. Sort the f*cking running of the club first, then sort the management. It's not as if the state of our club is in fine fettle, is it? The two Yanks are a f*ckin joke, and Rick Parry just adds to the comedy. How can anyone do a job when one hand is tied behind their back?