Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:36 pm

Sabre wrote:Just for the sake of discussion Ironically for the Luis Garcia, trickster and ball waster camp, LG is playing on the starting eleven, where as the so much desired Joaquin is not. Is it just me or we just don't appreciate King Luis as much as we should?

Definitely a bit under-appreciated in my opinion, Sabre. The trouble is, in a standard 4-4-2 where midfielders rather than fullbacks provide the width most of the time (as is usually played in England), Garcia struggles a bit when stuck out on the right or left. His natural inclination, as today's game illustrated, is to collect the ball on the wing and then cut infield. Conversely, he likes to drift infield on the weak side (when the ball is on the opposite flank) and show for the ball in the "hole" or at the edge of the box. Maintaining width by hugging the touchline and stretching opposition defenses down the flank is really not his game at all.

Which leads to my, "for the sake of discussion" question...

Given that we seem a little strapped for cash this transfer season, especially since Cisse will likely remain on the books. Might we consider bringing in one 'proven' striker and playing Luis more as a second striker next season. We've seen him take some wicked shots from distance, get into the box to latch onto lose balls/through balls and also to create chances for other players (such as Villa in the second half today). That seems to be the brief for a 'second striker.' I think we might get a lot more consistency and potency out of little Luis in that role and it provides the added benefit of saving us some cash. Just a thought.

by **Sabre** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:46 pm

Spot on. I had some doubts, but since I saw him bagging a hat trick against Slovaquia, I just thought, he scores three goals, he knows finishing as a striker, he's comfortable in small spaces, why the fúck can't he be a second striker just behind the typical "9"?

The stats say that he loses a lot of balls. The stats also say that Ronaldinho is so far the man that has lost most balls in the world cup. The stats are cráp if they are not read properly. It's common knowledge that if you have to lose a ball, you can lose it in forwards positions, not in midfield.

Due to all this I think he must and will play as a second striker.

by **davo_LFC** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:35 pm

Spain were top class today, especially torres and villa, both look real good talents. Spains 4th was brilliant and i think they are in with a real chance of winning this tournament. Good to see xabi gettin on the score sheet and little luis playing well aswell. As bob and sabre say, i think garcia is defo more suited to the second striker role because he has more license to express himself and doesnt have to defend. We saw today that garcia didnt really lose the ball much and showed some nice touches, and as we all know his knack for finishing is superb and he is creative. At the end of last season aswell he played well when playing off crouch, its just that when he plays right wing he tends to lose possession trying tricks in the wrong areas but when he plays as the second striker he can do the tricks with less danger of gettin caught out in bad areas.

by **TheoRacle** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:24 pm

Well done Spain! If they can keep that kind of performance up they could be real contenders.

Luis and Xabi had great games which is good to see. I thought Torres played a good game, pulled the Ukraine defence all over the shop (as did Villa and lil' Luis) to wonderful effect and took his chance to score really well. I'd have him or Villa in the squad any day!

And for discussion... I loved the 4-3-3 formation that Spain used, very adventurous and made for some great, entertaining football. Just wondering out aloud... could:

Reina

Finnan/Alves Carra Sami/Agger Riise/Other

Gerrard Alonso/Sissoko Kewell

Garcia Torres/Other Gonzalez

work for us?

by **GOAT** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:09 am

TheoRacle wrote:Well done Spain! If they can keep that kind of performance up they could be real contenders.

Luis and Xabi had great games which is good to see. I thought Torres played a good game, pulled the Ukraine defence all over the shop (as did Villa and lil' Luis) to wonderful effect and took his chance to score really well. I'd have him or Villa in the squad any day!

And for discussion... I loved the 4-3-3 formation that Spain used, very adventurous and made for some great, entertaining football. Just wondering out aloud... could:

Reina

Finnan/Alves Carra Sami/Agger Riise/Other

Gerrard Alonso/Sissoko Kewell

Garcia Torres/Other Gonzalez

work for us?

Yeah except we're not getting david villa or torres and alves will probably play most games on the right wing not at RB

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:13 am

TheoRacle wrote:Well done Spain! If they can keep that kind of performance up they could be real contenders.

Luis and Xabi had great games which is good to see. I thought Torres played a good game, pulled the Ukraine defence all over the shop (as did Villa and lil' Luis) to wonderful effect and took his chance to score really well. I'd have him or Villa in the squad any day!

And for discussion... I loved the 4-3-3 formation that Spain used, very adventurous and made for some great, entertaining football. Just wondering out aloud... could:

Reina

Finnan/Alves Carra Sami/Agger Riise/Other

Gerrard Alonso/Sissoko Kewell

Garcia Torres/Other Gonzalez

work for us?

I wouldn't exactly call Spain's formation a 4-3-3 today, Theo...

I think it was nominally a 4-4-2 but with Garcia and Xavi--the starting wide midfielders--tucking in and allowing the fullbacks to provide the real width. It seemed like Villa and Torres were further forward with Garcia in a free role just behind most of the time.

As for the formation, you've suggested it has potential but I would worry about:

1) Kewell and Gonzo tripping all over each other on the left flank (given that Harry's known for getting forward more than he is for tracking back)

2) Garcia and Gerrard tripping over each other a bit on the right

3) Sitting one of Alonso or Sissoko down to accomodate the attacking players you've selected--a concern given how integral both have become to the side

I'm more inclined to go with...

Reina

Finnan/Alves Carra Hyypia/Agger Riise/Aurellio

Gerrard/Alves Alonso Sissoko Kewell/Gonzales

Garcia
New Guy/Crouch/Fowler

by **TheoRacle** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:07 am

Bad Bob wrote:I wouldn't exactly call Spain's formation a 4-3-3 today, Theo...

I think it was nominally a 4-4-2 but with Garcia and Xavi--the starting wide midfielders--tucking in and allowing the fullbacks to provide the real width. It seemed like Villa and Torres were further forward with Garcia in a free role just behind most of the time.

As for the formation, you've suggested it has potential but I would worry about:

1) Kewell and Gonzo tripping all over each other on the left flank (given that Harry's known for getting forward more than he is for tracking back)

2) Garcia and Gerrard tripping over each other a bit on the right

3) Sitting one of Alonso or Sissoko down to accomodate the attacking players you've selected--a concern given how integral both have become to the side

I'm more inclined to go with...

Reina

Finnan/Alves Carra Hyypia/Agger Riise/Aurellio

Gerrard/Alves Alonso Sissoko Kewell/Gonzales

Garcia
New Guy/Crouch/Fowler

The 'tripping over each other' problems you refer to Bob would be solved in training. Like zonal defence, once everyone knows their role it shouldn't be a problem.

We'll have to disagree on Spain's formation, it looked 4-3-3 to me.

I think it (4-3-3) does have merit with our players... Although SG is brilliant everywhere, he definately prefers to be a bit more central rather than an out and out right mid. Keeping him tucked in slightly in a 4-3-3 would allow him to do what he does best and allow Finnan or most likely (in this formation) Alves to overlap and scoot down the right much like Serio Ramos did today. As Goat points out that although Alves has been playing RB his preferred position is RW so there's no doubting his ability to do this.

Centrally, both Xabi and Sissoko are easily good enough to occupy the centre mid unaided and yet both vary in style sufficiently to offer options in the degree of aggression needed for any particular opponent as well as different ways to transit the ball into the final third ( Xabi with his longer range passing for example). So it woudl simply be a matter of rotating these two depending on opponent and of course fitness/injury.

Although I rate Kewell highly, I think it's undeniable that he's lost a yard or two of pace. I do think though that he has improved his vision and distribution to compensate. He can hold the ball well and still make surging runs through the inside left channel when required though so IMO he would suit the position well. I also think that Kewell has worked hard at improving his tracking back this season and being not quite so advanced up the pitch in this formation should help him in this regard.

The left side of the formation is the key area for concern though I think. I haven't seen enough of Gonzalez to be confident that he could swap sides with Garcia (as Luis and Villa were doing for Spain today) but I am confident that he could swap with Kewell for the left mid position which would then allow Luis and Harry to switch wings during the game. This flexiblity would be a nightmare for oppostion defenders I'm sure.

Aurellio was the missing name I was trying to remember thanks... Although Riise has done agood job, he is undoubtedly a utility player and shouldn't be a permanent LB IMO. With Aurellio there, Risse plus Zenden (maybe) offer a further option for the left mid position.

The key to all this though is the CF. But I think the players we've mentioned so far for the other positions can certainly do the job meaning we could concentrate our funds on finding just one special player who will fit this system and others.

Goat: I was just using Torres as an example, but there are plenty of other names who would fit here. I don't really care if they're a 'known' name or not but preferably not over the age of 26 as I'd like to get a few years use out of him before we put ourselves in this position again! Actually, I'd even be prepared to wait until Xmas to find the right person as a fit Robbie would work well and probably benefit from a good run in the side without rotation. Doubt he'd be able to play 50 games a season though

.

Of course I'm not saying that we shoudl use this formation exclusively but like the 3-5-2 formation we used against Brum this season could definately be employed against the right opposition and I think that includes most in the league when we play at home.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:34 am

TheoRacle wrote:Centrally, both Xabi and Sissoko are easily good enough to occupy the centre mid unaided and yet both vary in style sufficiently to offer options in the degree of aggression needed for any particular opponent as well as different ways to transit the ball into the final third ( Xabi with his longer range passing for example). So it woudl simply be a matter of rotating these two depending on opponent and of course fitness/injury.

Although I rate Kewell highly, I think it's undeniable that he's lost a yard or two of pace. I do think though that he has improved his vision and distribution to compensate. He can hold the ball well and still make surging runs through the inside left channel when required though so IMO he would suit the position well. I also think that Kewell has worked hard at improving his tracking back this season and being not quite so advanced up the pitch in this formation should help him in this regard.

The left side of the formation is the key area for concern though I think. I haven't seen enough of Gonzalez to be confident that he could swap sides with Garcia (as Luis and Villa were doing for Spain today) but I am confident that he could swap with Kewell for the left mid position which would then allow Luis and Harry to switch wings during the game. This flexiblity would be a nightmare for oppostion defenders I'm sure.

I think this formation has merit, Theo...at least as an option, as you say at the end.

However, I would really doubt that Rafa would play Kewell in the central-left berth you are describing. If we do play 4-3-3 on occasion next season, I think it will be to accommodate Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko in the centre of the park. I think your right in saying that Gerrard enjoys the freedom of playing on the right but doesn't want to hug the touchline all game, so moving him more in-field on the right makes sense. As for Alonso and Sissoko, they've become key cogs in the wheel and I think will play a lot of games together next season, rather than taking it in turns to partner Gerrard in the middle.

That'll leave Kewell and Gonzales to battle for the advanced-left position in the attacking trident. Kewell, I'm sure, can do the job already so we'll just have to wait and see what Gonzales offers in England.

As for Spain's 'formation' today, you could well be right. Certainly any semblance of 4-4-2 disappeared after opening kick off but the system kept morphing: Luis was popping up all over the place in the attacking third; first Torres and then Villa were playing more down the left channel; Xavi was pulling the strings in the middle; Senna started out deep and then came forward quite often. Indeed, Alonso seemed to miss out a little bit as a result--he still played well and took his goal smartly but he wasn't the player dictating the play for Spain much of the time. Very interesting to watch, and judging by Ukraine's reactions, a nightmare to mark!

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