Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:34 pm

Robbie Keane should never have signed for LFC maybe when he was a lot younger but I knew it would all end in tears along with Bellamy and Pennant 3 players that should never have played for us.

by **JC_81** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:02 pm

Ciggy wrote:Robbie Keane should never have signed for LFC maybe when he was a lot younger but I knew it would all end in tears along with Bellamy and Pennant 3 players that should never have played for us.

Can't agree with you there Ciggy.

Bellamy and Keane were quality players before we signed them and despite not being great for us, have gone on to up their form again after leaving.

I think over the years it's been obvious that you don't get the best out of these two players unless you play them regularly. Bellamy didn't get that here, and Keane was unlucky that Benitez played him up on his own a lot (his record when playing alongside Torres was respectable).

I think another manager perhaps would have got more out of these two in a red shirt.

Pennant though - he's a bollox. Watched him play for Zaragoza the other night, he was poor. Apparently they want to sell him already to get him off the wage bill and he's not happy about it :laugh:

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:22 pm

Theres just some players that you know that it wont work out if you know what I mean, Bellamy didnt leave because he was cr@p he had to go because of hitting Riise and where Bellamy goes trouble follows him. It was the same with Pennant drink driving fighting in nightclubs etc.

But with Keane he came to late if he would have come here when he was about 22/23 he probably would have been excellent for us but it was a big mistake by Rafa signing him, it was a doomed failure before he even got here it really was a baffeling singing.

The same goes for signing dross like Voronin and the likes they should not be anywhere near Liverpool football club.

by **Snake** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:51 pm

Ciggy wrote:The same goes for signing dross like Voronin and the likes they should not be anywhere near Liverpool football club.

Wasn't Voronin free? If he was, it was a no lose situation

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:03 pm

I agree with what Ciggy said. He wasn't the right player for us.

JC, I think Keane only scored once alongside Torres (PSV) and that was in a partnership of 9 games. He only played as a solo striker 7 times, scoring two goals, in a total of 23 starts.

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:22 pm

Snake wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The same goes for signing dross like Voronin and the likes they should not be anywhere near Liverpool football club.

Wasn't Voronin free? If he was, it was a no lose situation

Doesnt matter he still gets paid abar 60 grand a week and he is fuckin shite Ive seen better players in my little lads under 10's. And it makes my blood boil slagged off England come back and has spent the best part of a month in a 5 star hotel in Miami from his LFC wages. Still Rafa is to blame for signing him and so are the Yanks for not giving us any money to sign better.

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:24 pm

Feckin Hell Cigg weve you been

by **Ciggy** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:27 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Feckin Hell Cigg weve you been

Down hearted girl depressed used to be so excited waiting to see who we would sign in the transfer window, its fair to say my love for the club is flagging and wavering under the current ownership have you read the latest bollox from Ayres? No mention of new players just opening club shops in China & India and getting someone to pay 250 million stadium rights.

We need world class players stick your new stadium up your feckin @rses kunts.

by **tonyeh** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:27 pm

Ciggy wrote:Theres just some players that you know that it wont work out if you know what I mean, Bellamy didnt leave because he was cr@p he had to go because of hitting Riise and where Bellamy goes trouble follows him. It was the same with Pennant drink driving fighting in nightclubs etc.

But with Keane he came to late if he would have come here when he was about 22/23 he probably would have been excellent for us but it was a big mistake by Rafa signing him, it was a doomed failure before he even got here it really was a baffeling singing.

The same goes for signing dross like Voronin and the likes they should not be anywhere near Liverpool football club.

Ah, but was it the player, or the system Cigs?

To me, the answer is simple. It was the system. Benitez has hamstrung Liverpool with his incredible inflexiblity. His refusal to move away from obviously limiting factors make it difficult for players to come to Liverpool. He insists on trying to beat square pegs into round holes and when they don't fit into those square holes, he loses interest.

As I said before in this thread, it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult to find a striker to fit into the way Benitez wants this team to play, no matter who they are.

Frankly, I think they players have given up on the manager. I think they're utterly fed up with Benitez and his bizarre ways and it's showing in the way they are marking time on the pitch at the moment.

BTW, I'm in full agreemnent re: Belamy and Pennant. Two W*nkers, to be sure. Bound to cause unrest where ever they are.

by **Simari** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:44 pm

tonyeh wrote:
Ciggy wrote:Theres just some players that you know that it wont work out if you know what I mean, Bellamy didnt leave because he was cr@p he had to go because of hitting Riise and where Bellamy goes trouble follows him. It was the same with Pennant drink driving fighting in nightclubs etc.

But with Keane he came to late if he would have come here when he was about 22/23 he probably would have been excellent for us but it was a big mistake by Rafa signing him, it was a doomed failure before he even got here it really was a baffeling singing.

The same goes for signing dross like Voronin and the likes they should not be anywhere near Liverpool football club.

Ah, but was it the player, or the system Cigs?

To me, the answer is simple. It was the system. Benitez has hamstrung Liverpool with his incredible inflexiblity. His refusal to move away from obviously limiting factors make it difficult for players to come to Liverpool. He insists on trying to beat square pegs into round holes and when they don't fit into those square holes, he loses interest.

As I said before in this thread, it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult to find a striker to fit into the way Benitez wants this team to play, no matter who they are.

Frankly, I think they players have given up on the manager. I think they're utterly fed up with Benitez and his bizarre ways and it's showing in the way they are marking time on the pitch at the moment.

BTW, I'm in full agreemnent re: Belamy and Pennant. Two W*nkers, to be sure. Bound to cause unrest where ever they are.

perhaps you should read the Maxi thread where Torres and Masch imply quite the contrary re: players giving up on Benitez

by **Sabre** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:00 pm

Ah, but was it the player, or the system Cigs?

THe other day I preffered to stop discussing and letting it go. You told me my views were absurd, and from my point of view it was quite the opposite, but I didn't feel like answering. But I see you insist, and it's friday, so here we go.

It's all nice you think another manager would do better for Liverpool. I respect that.

It's all nice if you think 3 years without silverware is not good enough for Liverpool and we need another manager. I also respect that.

It's all nice you dislike Rafa. I respect that aswell.

But lad, I wouldn't want you go meeting someone who knows his football out there and tell him Rafa's system is appalingly limited. There are many schools of coaches in Spain depending on the regions, and different approaches, but if anything is Rafa appreciated for, it's for his tactics.

His defensive system and automatisations are respected even by his detractors. Even a player who was píssed off by Rafa's approach to man management such as Alonso, says that their current team have a lot to do to work as a team, as Liverpool used to do.

So let's bury his "appalingy limited system" bóllocks. If you get 7 spots on for that, that's 8 of you wrong about that. The appalingly limited system team managed to score more goals than the other teams in the league last season.

Also, don't even dare to say outside newkit that even Torres has been marginalised by this manager. As that precise player owes everything in his career to Rafa. He's not discussed in the Spanish team. He used to be. He's a world class player now, he wasn't one before. He has multiplied his value twice at least. Don't let your dislike to the manager defend that kind of absurd thoughts. There's no need: Rafa has enough problems and criticism to make, you don't have to use that kind of bóllocks.

A 4-5-1 doesn't have to be appallingly limited nor defensive. Spain won the Euro final and semifinals with a 4-5-1, and the semifinals with many goals. Of course it's not the same thing to have a Torres upfront or a Keane, nor to have a Xavi giving the last pass or a Kuyt.

That's how with a 4-5-1 you can go and play the world cup, or you can watch it in TV another year. It depends on quality.

That's why Torres will remain in a top club (for sure) or go to another top club, and Keane has ended up in Celtic. There's nothing more than that.

by **tonyeh** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:11 pm

Sabre wrote:It's all nice if you think 3 years without silverware is not good enough for Liverpool and we need another manager. I also respect that.

It's all nice you dislike Rafa. I respect that aswell.

But lad, I wouldn't want you go meeting someone who knows his football out there and tell him Rafa's system is appalingly limited. There are many schools of coaches in Spain depending on the regions, and different approaches, but if anything is Rafa appreciated for, it's for his tactics.

His defensive system and automatisations are respected even by his detractors. Even a player who was píssed off by Rafa's approach to man management such as Alonso, says that their current team have a lot to do to work as a team, as Liverpool used to do.

So let's bury his "appalingy limited system" bóllocks. If you get 7 spots on for that, that's 8 of you wrong about that. The appalingly limited system team managed to score more goals than the other teams in the league last season.

Also, don't even dare to say outside newkit that even Torres has been marginalised by this manager. As that precise player owes everything in his career to Rafa. He's not discussed in the Spanish team. He used to be. He's a world class player now, he wasn't one before. He has multiplied his value twice at least. Don't let your dislike to the manager defend that kind of absurd thoughts. There's no need: Rafa has enough problems and criticism to make, you don't have to use that kind of bóllocks.

A 4-5-1 doesn't have to be appallingly limited nor defensive. Spain won the Euro final and semifinals with a 4-5-1, and the semifinals with many goals. Of course it's not the same thing to have a Torres upfront or a Keane, nor to have a Xavi giving the last pass or a Kuyt.

That's how with a 4-5-1 you can go and play the world cup, or you can watch it in TV another year. It depends on quality.

That's why Torres will remain in a top club (for sure) or go to another top club, and Keane has ended up in Celtic. There's nothing more than that.

It's all nice you think another manager would do better for Liverpool. I respect that.

I Didn't exactly say that. But I'd certainly be open to a change of manager. I can't say whether another manager could come to Liverpool and "do well". One thing's for sure though, Benitez isn't "doing well". Something needs to be done as Benitez' CLEARLY isn't up to the job.

CLEARLY

It's all nice if you think 3 years without silverware is not good enough for Liverpool and we need another manager. I also respect that.

I didn't say that either.

It's all nice you dislike Rafa. I respect that aswell.

I didn't say that.

But lad, I wouldn't want you go meeting someone who knows his football out there and tell him Rafa's system is appalingly limited. There are many schools of coaches in Spain depending on the regions, and different approaches, but if anything is Rafa appreciated for, it's for his tactics.

Frankly, I don't give a fuck. I don't buy the "master tactician" bull Sabre. I don't see it on the pitch week in week out. I haven't seen it at all in his tenure at Liverpool and I think that the idea that Benitez is some sort of "Von Manstein" of football is a sham.

Benitez is no tactician and the results show that clearly.

I see "join the dots" management. They may be Benitez' dots, but there still dots.

I see a refusal to fix obvious problems.

I see an incredible inflexibility.

I see unbelievably bizarre decisions.

I see appaling man-management.

I see a manager who's dragging Liverpool down the shitter, because he is limited and cannot come up with a plan B, either during a game or over the course of a season. His inability to make a sub before the 60th minute ALONE is baffling. He's incredibly stubborn and refuses to fix problems that stare him and everyone else in the face.

Also, frankly, I don't care what you think of Benitez. I don't KNOW Raphael Benitez. Nobody here KNOWS him. So, the bizarre love-in for him by some on here is based on fuck all. Benitez could be a fine man. He could could also be a cunt. I don't know and that's neither here nor there.

What I do see is a manager and his methods that are limiting what this team can do. Liverpool under Benitez are a boring team. We play boring, limited football and we're reaping what Benitez has sown this season. That's plain for everyone to see.

As for "wanting the manager to go", I actually wouldn't mind if Benitez bucked up his ideas and stayed. If he changed his approach and tried to recify some of the problems at the club. But he won't do that. He'll stick to his system, right or wrong, even if it clearly isn't working.

Also, don't even dare to say outside newkit that even Torres has been marginalised by this manager.

I didn't say this either.

Look, Sabre, you need to read what posters are actually writing. Not what you "think" they might be saying and if in doubt ask.

I said that Torres has been marginalised by the opposition in some games, because he's required to do a lot of work in Benitez' LIMITED 4-5-1 formation. When you have 1 striker up front and a midfield that doesn't follow through in attack, then that means that the striker will ALWAYS have an uphill struggle, regardless of who he is. It just so happens that in Torres, we have a sublime striker. When it's somebody else, the system is exposed for what it is.

If Benitez could have his way, he'd play Torres evey game. So would I.

But the FACT is, that without Torres (and sometimes with) Liverpool struggle to get goals, regardless of the "loadsa goals last season" nonsense. 9 of which came over two games. MOST of last season, we struggled for goals too, despite the end of year tally.

Look, I done with your post here Sabre, because you clearly haven't read what I have written, or you just haven't got it.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:35 pm

So if his tactics, his selection policy, and his man-management are so limited, baffling and appalling and if his purchases have been so poor, how did we manage to accrue 86 points last season?

Regarding Keane again, he only played 7 games as a lone striker and that was largely because Torres was injured. But for that fact they would almost certainly have played together more often. He made 16 other starts, mostly alonsgide Torres, but also Kuyt, in which he was largely woeful. We then sold him, persisted with Torres up top on his own and went on to play some of our best football of the past decade, particularly in the final third of the season.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:53 pm

LFC2007 wrote:So if his tactics, his selection policy, and his man-management are so limited, baffling and appalling and if his purchases have been so poor, how did we manage to accrue 86 points last season?

Regarding Keane again, he only played 7 games as a lone striker and that was largely because Torres was injured. But for that fact they would almost certainly have played together more often. He made 16 other starts, mostly alonsgide Torres, but also Kuyt, in which he was largely woeful. We then sold him, persisted with Torres up top on his own and went on to play some of our best football of the past decade, particularly in the final third of the season.

Luck obviously :blush:

by **tonyeh** » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:52 am

So if his tactics, his selection policy, and his man-management are so limited, baffling and appalling and if his purchases have been so poor, how did we manage to accrue 86 points last season?

One may also ask, how come we didn't win the Prem last year, when everything was on our side.

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