Liverpool FC Forum

by **red_guy** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:42 am

Sabre wrote:My conclussion is that he let down Liverpool, not Rafa.

It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

How did you manage to know that sabre? I guess you're just assuming that. Did you look at his face when he scored against us at anfield last season? He didn't celebrate even after all things rafa did to him bcos he respects the club and the fans. He looked very sad that day. Judging by that reaction , i also can assume that he never wanted to leave Liverpool FC.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:50 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
tonyeh wrote:..to the crushing of Robbie Keane,

A bad signing, simple as that. Rafa was correct to sell him, the mistake was in failing to bring in a replacement.

i actually think they are really good posts from both made in uk and tonyeh personally

Eh? I didn't say they weren't.

The Keane signing was a bad mistake by Rafa whichever way you look at it. I thought it could've been managed better by Rafa, but my overwhelming feeling is that regardless of how much playing time he would've been afforded, he was never going to fit in because of the type of player that he was/is. He only had a handful (PSV, Everton, Arsenal, WBA, Bolton?) of good games for the club but generally speaking he very much struggled to get into games. There was maybe once or twice (e.g. City away) where I thought he should've started, but he started a lot of games despite being absolutely woeful in several of them and watching closely I thought it was clear that he wouldn't be the creative second striker we were looking for. At £20.3m I was expecting a whole lot more.

Well what i got from your post is that we just shouldnt have signed Keane full stop.
The other two posters where not saying that.
They were saying that he should have been managed better.

He is a better player than what he showed at LFC without a doubt.
If you spend 20 million on a player at Liverpool and he doesnt appear to meet the system, why not try and find a way of utilising his strengths ?
Rafa if i recall correct kept stating something like 'i will treat Robbie the same as all of the players, his price tag is irrelevant'

To me thats a ridiculous statement.
Our second highest transfer fee spent and he is just another player ?
Well he shouldnt be, if Rafa is spunking 20 million then the player needs to be a stand out player in the team.
I think Rafa should have tried to adapt once torres was injured and play a different system to get the best out of Robbie.
He is a player that with the right system could have flourished here, Rafa's ridgidness regarding tactics and lack of man management skills clearly fecked that signing up big time.

by **Waldo** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:56 am

Spurs to listen to offers for Bentley + Spurs interested in Babel = a good swap deal

Although Spurs want to recoup most of the £15m(ish) they paid Blackburn for Bentley so that might f*ck that idea.

by **made in UK** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:06 am

It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:23 am

made in UK wrote:It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

Exactly, i know what i am about to type is in the words of steve mcclaren 'schpeculation'
But didnt Rafa and Pako fall out when Rafa spunked all that money on Babel at the last minute as Pako felt it was a gamble after missing out on their actual targets ?

I am sure thats what i heard.

The point being like you said, we cant afford to be so wasteful with money.

by **Waldo** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:57 am

made in UK wrote:It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

I think Rafa did well to recoup what he did for Keane. It was clear that Keane didn't fit well into our team and we struggled to find a position for him.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:07 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:Well what i got from your post is that we just shouldnt have signed Keane full stop.
The other two posters where not saying that.
They were saying that he should have been managed better.

He is a better player than what he showed at LFC without a doubt.
If you spend 20 million on a player at Liverpool and he doesnt appear to meet the system, why not try and find a way of utilising his strengths ?
Rafa if i recall correct kept stating something like 'i will treat Robbie the same as all of the players, his price tag is irrelevant'

To me thats a ridiculous statement.
Our second highest transfer fee spent and he is just another player ?
Well he shouldnt be, if Rafa is spunking 20 million then the player needs to be a stand out player in the team.
I think Rafa should have tried to adapt once torres was injured and play a different system to get the best out of Robbie.
He is a player that with the right system could have flourished here, Rafa's ridgidness regarding tactics and lack of man management skills clearly fecked that signing up big time.

What I'm saying is that in hindsight we shouldn't have signed him because he wasn't the right kind of player for us. The number of times he went missing - not just when he played up top on his own - but in a 4-4-2, which was not some one-off that people are now making it out to be - was enough to convince me that no amount of man-management under this manager could've turned it around.

I was as enthusiastic as the rest when he first arrived but on closer inspection I don't think he was right and I would put him in the same sort of bracket as Bellamy, although right now I'd take Bellamy ahead of him. Bad mistake by Rafa though, no doubt about that.

by **made in UK** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:11 pm

Waldo wrote:
made in UK wrote:It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

I think Rafa did well to recoup what he did for Keane. It was clear that Keane didn't fit well into our team and we struggled to find a position for him.

Yes maybe he did. Maybe Wall st is where Rafa should be at instead buying and selling stocks and shares. Unfortunately he's not in New York he's at Anfield where his primary target is to win football matches. That means buying the right players, gelling a team and beating you're opponents.

by **tonyeh** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:42 pm

Sabre wrote:Yes I also think they are clearly good posts and civilised discussion.

But if I have to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced. I asked why I was wrong thinking that it was more a case of Keane wanting to leave, and I've been answered this.

As far as I'm aware, Keane certainly didn't want to leave. He may have been unhappy, who wouldn't have been, being treated in the way he was? But he wanted to play for Liverpool. It's his team since he was a kid. He's a Liverpool fan. A dream come true he stated when he arrived here.

As much as it's a good post I only have an "As far as I'm aware" and the bit about it was his team as a kid, which I already knew.

For me to clarify that question is important, because if it was Rafa who wanted him out in winter and with no replacement, then my bitterness towards Keane would dissapear instantly and I'd have yet another thing to complain about Rafa (he said he wanted Keane in a press conference IIRC)

So if anyone has some quote, something to clarify that let me know (anyone).

I'm not interested on defending Rafa on this, nor his búllshít tactics, nor his failings, I'd have the same bitterness if we had ANY other manager. I just want to know exactly how it happened, and if I've missed something very obvious (some quote, some common knowledge), please let me know. I genuinely don't know what happened exactly.

For me it's entirely different if he wanted to leave badly on the rush, or it was the manager who wanted him out.

P.S. To Made UK: I said smaller club. Not small. Not wanting to sound arrogant. Both Alonso, Reina, Riera, Keane and Benayoun came from smaller clubs. Some of them delivered, some of them didn't, all of them under the same manager, with the same mistakes and failings.

P.S.2. If I remove my bitterness about Keane for a moment, yes, I think he's a very good player. I always thought so. But he left Liverpool in a bad moment for me, and I'd like to clarify the reasons.

But I can only go on what I am aware of Sabre and to be blunt, the idea that Benitez wanted Keane to stay and Keane wanted to go is absurd. Especially given all that transpired during the lads time at Liverpool.

It was Benitez who steered Keane's ship onto the rocks, not the other way around. Sure, the striker was struggling to fit into the manager's appalingly limited system (one of the main reasons for the overall failure), but he can only play the game that the manager assigns to him and as I said before, there are few strikers that can play the "1 up" well in the very defensive mindset that Benitez has shackled the team with. It's extremely difficult to do successfully. Even Torres has been marginalised out of games because of this awful tem set-up.

Everything about Keane's "body language" says to me that he wanted to play. He was extremely frustrated at being taken off, nearly every game he was involved in. He was seen warming up on several occasions on the sidelines, eager to get onto the pitch, only to be neglected by Benitez completely (even when he was the obivous choice striker for a sub!). He was baffled by Benitez's decisions to bench him, even though he'd scored the week previously! He was angry about the stupid way Benitez handled him. I don't blame him for being so. Also, as pointed out by Red_Guy, his goal scored against Liverpool in the last game of the year produced no celebration when he could have rubbed it in Benitez's face. He has also maintained a very dignified silence since his undignified handling.

That doesn't strike me as somebody who was dis-interested in playing for a football club.

I also understand somewhat where Keane is coming from. I'm from the the same Country as him, in fact from the same town and support for Liverpool and Manchester Utd is very strong over here. When Keane said it was a dream come true to play for Liverpool I believe he was being 100% sincere (unlike much of the guff that people in the footy would spout) and I just cannot believe that he would simply want to walk away from that opportunity after just 6 months of football.

On the other hand, we have Benitez's actions, which are all well known. Subbing the guy, no matter what form he was in. Benching him after goals. Not even putting him in the line-up crucial matches etc.

To me, that looks like a manager who doesn't want a particular player in HIS system.

It also looks like he's doing the same thing to Aqualini, which is a couse for worry.

In addition, I heard it was Spurs who approached Liverpool with the idea of buying back Keane and Benitez jumped at the chance to recoup the ridiculous amount of money he parted with in the first place. You saying that Robbie Keane wanted to go, is the first time I've heard of such a thing and it doesn't strike me as correct, given the preceding events.

In any case, regardless of whether Keane would have been eventually bashed into that round hole Benitez wanted him in, I just don't believe Liverpool WILL find a successful back-up for Torres. The over-defensive system Benitez won't move away from is the problem, not the choice of players, whether it's Keane, Toni, Van Nistelroy, Heskey, or even David Villa. Quite often, despite the natural inclination to attack, Liverpool are impotent in front of goal, because they play so deep or the midfield don't follow through on the attack. Which means that whoever is up top is doing an incredible amount of work to scratch around for a goal.

I personally believe that the last couple of months superb football at the end of last season, came about because Benitez had abandoned the idea of a league win (after the shambles post Christmas rant) and took the shackles off of the team...and it produced the incredible results we all were amazed at.

This year the shackles are back on and cowardly approach to the game/certain players is in full swing again and as I have repeatedly maintained...the chickens have come home to roost.

by **The Good Yank** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:21 pm

Spot on Tonyeh.

The way I remember it, it was Harry Redknapp who approached LFC about taking Keane back. This was shortly after a match that we drew (can't remember against whom) and they showed Keane sitting in the stands and he looked livid that he wasn't even on the bench and couldn't help the team get the win.Yes Robbie Keane had some tough games and missed a good amount of chances, but his work rate and his desire to stay and succeed at LFC shouldn't ever be questioned.

Keane simply accepted the transfer because he was reading the writing on the wall. Rafa never seemed to give Keane a vote of confidence, Rafa listened to Spurs' offer, didn't dismiss it and without making it onto the bench for nearly all of January, well, why wouldn't Keane accept, he wanted to play football.

You can blame the player for not taking his chances in matches, but at the end of the day, the Keane fiasco should, and in my mind always will, fall squarely at Rafa's doorstep.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:48 pm

great posts by Tonyeh, MIUK and BenP. totally agree with it and Rafa is at fault for the fact that he got rid of Crouch, Bellamy and Keane and hence we're left with Voronin, Ngog and Kuyt. i know which trio i would pick to be on my team any day of the week.

by **Reg** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:03 pm

Lets face it, everything that goes wrong in life - be it rain at the weekend, the stock market crash or no spaces in the supermarket car park are all Rafa´s fault.

He's a right tw@t.

:laugh:

by **Yossi_Benaloon** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:27 am

Spurs seem desperate to offload Keane, as now he is being linked with a a swap deal with John Carew. I my own opinion Keane + Cash is a ridiculous deal for Carew, who cannot seem able to play 90 mins, especially as Spurs already have Crouch.

by **Waldo** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:29 pm

Yossi_Benaloon wrote:Spurs seem desperate to offload Keane, as now he is being linked with a a swap deal with John Carew. I my own opinion Keane + Cash is a ridiculous deal for Carew, who cannot seem able to play 90 mins, especially as Spurs already have Crouch.

Carew would do a job for us! Bit of a toss up between him and Heskey as who would offer us the best value for money... :glare:

RK's days at Spurs look numbered that's for sure.

by **Aussie Style** » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:31 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:Rafa is at fault for the fact that he got rid of Crouch, Bellamy and Keane and hence we're left with Voronin, Ngog and Kuyt. i know which trio i would pick to be on my team any day of the week.

But would you rather Crouch and Bellamy or Torres? I know who I would prefer..
We sold Bellamy to buy Torres, and Crouch left because Torres was keeping him out of the 11.

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