Robbie keane - Could be off to celtic

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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:36 am

Seriously?

Let's take a look at the historical context of the debate to see why I distinguished the terms 'decisions' and 'tactics' from Rafa's signings, or if you want a more complete definition; from Rafa's determination of the composition of the squad. This was necessary as it provided the basis for my argument that a lack of quality in depth was a key reason we failed to capitalise on our lead in last season's title race. That is why I made a comparison in terms of Kuyt/Keane/Babel  vs Rooney/Babel in my opening posts. I also noted the added experience players like Giggs and Scholes provided in comparison to the likes of Lucas and others that we had in reserve.

Then I made a distinction by contending that, by comparison, any ‘poor decisions’ and ‘tactics’ (terms you had made use of too) didn’t figure prominently in my account of the season. So, at this point it was clear to all and sundry that by ‘decisions’ and ‘tactics’ I was referring to factors other than the quality of players within the squad.  (If the lack of quality at key moments was a key reason and ‘tactics’ and ‘decisions’ didn’t figure that high up in my account, then by ‘decisions’ I am cleary not referring to the same thing as the quality in the squad). 

I then stated what I was arguing against; that said lack of quality was not a key factor in our failure to capitalise in last season’s title race, since this is the stance you seemed to be taking. You confirmed this with the comments: “If we had Ferguson as our manager last year, we would have won the league comfortably.”  And, “The team last year WAS good enough to win the prem”.  (despite your pretty staunch criticism of the quality of what is a very similar squad this season). Or in a nutshell, “The key factor was in the set-up and tactical approach to the game”. That was your position and that is what I was arguing against. Why else would I argue that the 4-5-1 system saw us draw about as many games as under a 4-4-2, or explain the futility in attempting to push forward and 'go for the win' when your front men are Ngog and Keane, and your wide men Dossena, Lucas, Arbeloa and Kuyt? There was a point to these explanations you know. All for the purpose of substantiating my point that our tactical approach was not a key factor in our failure to capitalise on last season's lead in the title race.

Alas, you had yet to suss what I was arguing; hence the reason you pulled out the following sweeping generalisation, “Well, you see, this is the problem with some people and the ridiculous efforts they go through to absolve the manage of any responsibility for failure. They'll simply igore the obvious in favor of ANY other avenue. Be it Parry, the owners, or the players."

In quoting my post, why else would you say this? It could only have been because you thought I was doing just that. 

But no worries I thought, clarification is on the way. And so I did, as summed up by this comment in my next post;

“What I am actually saying is that the criticism ought, IMO, to have applied more to the composition of his squad rather than his 'decisions' and 'tactics'. I've long since argued players like Babel, Keane (in our setup), Dossena, Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are not good enough.....”

That’s right, ‘his’ squad. Not because of the owners, but because of 'his' - Rafa’s - selection of players. ‘Rather than’ denotes a distinction between that and his ‘decisions’ and ‘tactics’. If you had understood this distinction – the basis for my argument -  it is very unlikely you would’ve replied with the following comments;

“But, the "composition" of the squad is based on the 'decisions' of Benitez. The squad doesn't compose itself. The players don't just walk into the club.”

In other words, still you had no grasp of the debate because of course the squad doesn’t just ‘compose itself’ (someone has to compose it) and of course the players don’t ‘just walk into the club’ (someone has to scout them and sign them, that man being Rafa, obviously ffs). Implicit then is the suggestion that I was contending that Rafa was not responsible for those mistaken signings; since what other purpose could such (ridiculous if I may say so) comments serve?

The latest one simply confirms what I've said, specifically in this comment:

"you seem to labouring under the impression that the composition of the squad is somehow not one of the manager's decisions and in your attempt to move "away from Rafa's 'tactics' and 'decisions' "

I mean, seriously, seriously? You think it's possible that all along I've believed 'his' mistaken signings to be the responsibility of somebody other than him?

Is it not patently obvious that I am in fact holding him responsible for having signed Babel, Lucas, Dossena, Keane, Voronin, Degen and other?

Just in my previous reply there, I commented:

"a reapportioning of the causes of our underperormance...toward his (yes, Rafa's) recruitment policy; that is, his determination of the composition of the squad"

Or further back:

"Instead of Babel we might have had Van der Vaart; instead of Dossena we might have had Kranjcar; instead of Keane we might have had Arshavin. Three alternatives who had been good players for a while, before moving on to bigger and better things (and I said so at the time). I would have expected at least one of the eventual three to have been a notable success. They were all notable failures. (And, no, I'm not saying 'it's the owners')."

Nay bother, next time I shall just say 'I THINK THESE SIGNINGS WERE RAFA'S FAULT' Save me the hassle  :D !
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Postby tonyeh » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:09 am

It might be quicker and less waste of bandwitdh.

That's an awful lot of yap.
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Postby made in UK » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:27 am

tonyeh wrote:It might be quicker and less waste of bandwitdh.

That's an awful lot of yap.

:D

Its like a Quentine Tarintino argument in here, you get the end of the argument at the begining, the begining at the end and a load of nonsense in the middle.
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:56 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Seriously?

Let's take a look at the historical context of the debate to see why I distinguished the terms 'decisions' and 'tactics' from Rafa's signings, or if you want a more complete definition; from Rafa's determination of the composition of the squad. This was necessary as it provided the basis for my argument that a lack of quality in depth was a key reason we failed to capitalise on our lead in last season's title race. That is why I made a comparison in terms of Kuyt/Keane/Babel  vs Rooney/Babel in my opening posts. I also noted the added experience players like Giggs and Scholes provided in comparison to the likes of Lucas and others that we had in reserve.

Then I made a distinction by contending that, by comparison, any ‘poor decisions’ and ‘tactics’ (terms you had made use of too) didn’t figure prominently in my account of the season. So, at this point it was clear to all and sundry that by ‘decisions’ and ‘tactics’ I was referring to factors other than the quality of players within the squad.  (If the lack of quality at key moments was a key reason and ‘tactics’ and ‘decisions’ didn’t figure that high up in my account, then by ‘decisions’ I am cleary not referring to the same thing as the quality in the squad). 

I then stated what I was arguing against; that said lack of quality was not a key factor in our failure to capitalise in last season’s title race, since this is the stance you seemed to be taking. You confirmed this with the comments: “If we had Ferguson as our manager last year, we would have won the league comfortably.”  And, “The team last year WAS good enough to win the prem”.  (despite your pretty staunch criticism of the quality of what is a very similar squad this season). Or in a nutshell, “The key factor was in the set-up and tactical approach to the game”. That was your position and that is what I was arguing against. Why else would I argue that the 4-5-1 system saw us draw about as many games as under a 4-4-2, or explain the futility in attempting to push forward and 'go for the win' when your front men are Ngog and Keane, and your wide men Dossena, Lucas, Arbeloa and Kuyt? There was a point to these explanations you know. All for the purpose of substantiating my point that our tactical approach was not a key factor in our failure to capitalise on last season's lead in the title race.

Alas, you had yet to suss what I was arguing; hence the reason you pulled out the following sweeping generalisation, “Well, you see, this is the problem with some people and the ridiculous efforts they go through to absolve the manage of any responsibility for failure. They'll simply igore the obvious in favor of ANY other avenue. Be it Parry, the owners, or the players."

In quoting my post, why else would you say this? It could only have been because you thought I was doing just that. 

But no worries I thought, clarification is on the way. And so I did, as summed up by this comment in my next post;

“What I am actually saying is that the criticism ought, IMO, to have applied more to the composition of his squad rather than his 'decisions' and 'tactics'. I've long since argued players like Babel, Keane (in our setup), Dossena, Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are not good enough.....”

That’s right, ‘his’ squad. Not because of the owners, but because of 'his' - Rafa’s - selection of players. ‘Rather than’ denotes a distinction between that and his ‘decisions’ and ‘tactics’. If you had understood this distinction – the basis for my argument -  it is very unlikely you would’ve replied with the following comments;

“But, the "composition" of the squad is based on the 'decisions' of Benitez. The squad doesn't compose itself. The players don't just walk into the club.”

In other words, still you had no grasp of the debate because of course the squad doesn’t just ‘compose itself’ (someone has to compose it) and of course the players don’t ‘just walk into the club’ (someone has to scout them and sign them, that man being Rafa, obviously ffs). Implicit then is the suggestion that I was contending that Rafa was not responsible for those mistaken signings; since what other purpose could such (ridiculous if I may say so) comments serve?

The latest one simply confirms what I've said, specifically in this comment:

"you seem to labouring under the impression that the composition of the squad is somehow not one of the manager's decisions and in your attempt to move "away from Rafa's 'tactics' and 'decisions' "

I mean, seriously, seriously? You think it's possible that all along I've believed 'his' mistaken signings to be the responsibility of somebody other than him?

Is it not patently obvious that I am in fact holding him responsible for having signed Babel, Lucas, Dossena, Keane, Voronin, Degen and other?

Just in my previous reply there, I commented:

"a reapportioning of the causes of our underperormance...toward his (yes, Rafa's) recruitment policy; that is, his determination of the composition of the squad"

Or further back:

"Instead of Babel we might have had Van der Vaart; instead of Dossena we might have had Kranjcar; instead of Keane we might have had Arshavin. Three alternatives who had been good players for a while, before moving on to bigger and better things (and I said so at the time). I would have expected at least one of the eventual three to have been a notable success. They were all notable failures. (And, no, I'm not saying 'it's the owners')."

Nay bother, next time I shall just say 'I THINK THESE SIGNINGS WERE RAFA'S FAULT' Save me the hassle  :D !

Sir Humphrey Appleby I presume?  :D
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:35 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Sir Humphrey Appleby I presume?  :D

(sadly) Nail on head :D
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Postby dawson99 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:15 pm

i always thought we brought Keane to play a certani position, then eralised Stevie played that position better, so Keane would never get a game... then came to an understanding with Spurs so we hardly lost any money on the deal?
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Postby Bad Bob » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:43 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Sir Humphrey Appleby I presume?  :D

(sadly) Nail on head :D

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:D
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Postby aCe' » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:16 pm

dawson99 wrote:i always thought we brought Keane to play a certani position, then eralised Stevie played that position better, so Keane would never get a game... then came to an understanding with Spurs so we hardly lost any money on the deal?

:D

hardly lost any money on the deal isnt quite accurate ...

We lost 7mill on the guy...

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Postby tonyeh » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:50 am

aCe' wrote:
dawson99 wrote:i always thought we brought Keane to play a certani position, then eralised Stevie played that position better, so Keane would never get a game... then came to an understanding with Spurs so we hardly lost any money on the deal?

:D

hardly lost any money on the deal isnt quite accurate ...

We lost 7mill on the guy...

BBC LINK

...and that's worth a whole Dossena!
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Postby Owzat » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:42 pm

Number 9 wrote:
Sabre wrote:Alonso's father told me that for instance, he said Benitez is buggering you all the day with things to correct.

:bowdown

Too funny that! :laugh:

Maybe that's rife in the Liverpool dressing room and why they all play like they have been
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Postby fivecups » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:06 pm

Boocity wrote:Saw on the BBC website a rumour he could be off to Celtic, if Celtic are going to buy him he must be going cheap. I wouldn't mind having him back at Anfield for a couple of mill

Sounds like that could be a good call. Strange loan transfer for someone we bought a year and a half ago for 20 million.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:36 pm

His a celtic man so aint surprised.
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Postby Waldo » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:39 pm

He will score a sh*t load of goals in the SPL.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:45 pm

Feckin :censored: . Well done harry lad .
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Postby NANNY RED » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:49 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Feckin :censored: . Well done harry lad .

Funny in it Igor how there all saying Harrys done a good bit of buissness getting rid, an yet . nah i wont go there  :;):
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