Liverpool FC Forum

LFC2007 wrote:People forget that they had a lot of late goals, deflections, dodgy penalty decisions and such like as well.

LFC2007 wrote:

tonyeh wrote:

The 'poor decisions' and 'negative tactics' stuff doesn't really figure that high up in my account of the season

Well, you see, this is the problem with some people and the ridiculous efforts they go through to absolve the manage of any responsibility for failure. They'll simply igore the obvious in favor of ANY other avenue. Be it Parry, the owners, or the players.

What BS, mate. Lapsing into that sort of generalisation is one of the reasons this place is palpably divided (seriously, who has ever tried to absolve him of 'any' responsibility for our failures? It may 'seem' to be the case at times but more often than not, it very rarely is). It's perverse; I support the same team as you! 

What I am actually saying is that the criticism ought, IMO, to have applied more to the composition of his squad rather than his 'decisions' and 'tactics'. I've long since argued players like Babel, Keane (in our setup), Dossena, Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are not good enough. The signing of Babel cost us a great chance to resolve the left wing slot. Similarly the signing of Keane cost us a great opportunity to give us at least one other viable option up front, not least because Torres is never likely to complete a whole season without injury. The signing of Dossena cost us £7m and with it the opportunity to sign a player - any player - just a decent one who could do a job would've done. The consequences of these mistakes - and of a few others in the transfer market - live with us today and are one of the main reasons we are where we are. They can also partially account for our failure to capitalise on our lead in last season's title race. Hence I referred to the Mancs' ability to introduce a Tevez or Berbatov into the fold as opposed to Babel, Keane or Kuyt. The difference is on record.

Instead of Babel we might have had Van der Vaart; instead of Dossena we might have had Kranjcar; instead of Keane we might have had Arshavin. Three alternatives who had been good players for a while, before moving on to bigger and better things (and I said so at the time). I would have expected at least one of the eventual three to have been a notable success. They were all notable failures. (And, no, I'm not saying 'it's the owners').

If you don't have the quality, it's very hard to do the 'positive', 'expansive' stuff all the time. We did it for a while when everyone was fit and firing but in between we had moments where it just wasn't realistic given the players who were coming in and the positions they were filling. I remember we played Villa away at the start of last season where we drew. It was a dour game; we did well in defense but offered little in attack. Some people acused Rafa of playing 'negative' football -- of failing to go for the jugular. He made one baffling decision and that was in starting with Keane out wide left, but once Torres went off injured (after half-an-hour), Keane shifted up alongside Ngog, who had come on as Torres' replacement. We had our two up top but the two struggled all game to hold the ball up, especially Ngog. They just didn't do very much. Whenever the opportunity arose for our midfield - Alonso in particular - to initiate a meaningful attack, our wide options were non-existent and our forward options impotent. If we had pushed our full-backs on (Dossena   and Arbeloa); rather than seeing 'expansive', 'positive' football, we more than likely would have exposed ourselves to the threats they posed out wide (Ashley Young in particular). Put simply if your players are sh!t (I wouldn't normally say as much, but I'm trying to get the point across here) you are inherently limited in your tactical outlook, and so on the basis of who our personnel were that day, and in accounting for the quality of the opposition, a draw was a reasonably good result. At best we might have nicked it like we did this season, but it wouldn't have been deserved.

It's kind of like when people urge us to 'pass the ball forward FFS!', even when our movement is virtually static. If the chance of completing the forward pass is only 20%, pick another option or bide your time until there's a better angle, or better still try and create more of an angle and maybe others will reciprocate with better movement. If it's tight and looking dicey, spread it wide or go back. It's much more desirable than losing possession and having to work to get it back. Surely nobody would dispute the difference between Tevez/Berbatov and Kuyt/Keane in this aspect of the game (tbh, almost any aspect of the game  ). That mattered last season, so did the fact that they had Giggs and Scholes in reserve, when we had Lucas, Babel and co. The difference in quality in these areas was/is monumental.

At times when Babel would play I felt it was only a matter of time before he'd concede possession. The description of him as an 'attacking player' (leading to this idea that Rafa has curbed young Ryan's attacking instincts with his 'negative tactics' and other such nonsense) is blind to the fact that he wasn't conducive to a side that aspires to play 'expansive attacking football', because - above all else - to do so requires a decent amount of intelligence. You have to string good passes together in good areas basically, something that is inhibited if you have a player to your left who has a habit of running down blind alleys, and a bloke to your right whose general play is quite often painful to watch. So when Babel didn't play, it didn't demonstrate Rafa's 'negative tactics', it demonstrated that he was such a risky option that he couldn't be trusted.

One criticism that I would make though on the 'decisions' front - turning to this season - is the persistent selection of Kuyt, despite his woeful form. When the opportunity arose to play Benayoun there he stuck with Kuyt (he could even have put Gerrard there). Personally, I would much sooner see Pacheco get a game there if Kuyt is in such bad form.

Other than failures in recruitment and player selection, from the way we've performed this season it seems obvious that the players haven't been coached well enough (And, no, I'm not saying 'it's the coaches'). In communicating the message to the players on things like set plays or more generally in inspiring the team to play with collective gusto, the manager and coaches assume practical responsibility.

Look, yes there are differences in the squads. Nobody is saying that there isn't. However, it's the approach of the manager that is also very different. Ferguson urges his team forward, no matter who's on the pitch. We see all the time. How often have we seen Utd come back from a seemingly lost cause to nick at the end?  Benitez uses the opposite. He urges a defensive posture in his approach. He wants to limit the possibility of a counter attack. Hence, Liverpool end up with a ridiculous amount of silly draws against opposition they should have beaten quite easily.

In short, Ferguson wants to win games and Benitez wants not to lose games.

Regarding the failure of last season, decisions like taking off attacking players, when you need a goal is ABSOLUTELY an ingredient in a failure to secure the league. Insisting on using a formation that clearly limited (when used without Torres) is a factor in failure. Not changing things during a game when things obviously need changing is a factor. Clinging to zonal marking during set pieces (when the goal leakage from set pieces is appaling) is a factor in failure. Freezing out good players (like Benayoon) is a factor in failure. Playing a defensive game EVERY GAME is a factor in failure.

I don't buy the "team is no good" line. I think that's nonsense. The team last year WAS good enough to win the Prem...if they had been allowed to play, all season, the way they did in the last 2 1/2 months of the season. When they were allowed to use an attacking game, they were good enough to put 4 past Real Madrid, 4 past Man Utd, 4 past Chelsea, 5 past Aston Villa and 4 past Arsenal.

The key factor was in the set-up and tactical approach to the game. That few months of attacking football was the best football Liverpool had played in years. It showed what they could do when the shackles were taken off.

Then from game one, this season, they were back to the usual defensive posture, even against "lower" opposition and that plus the inadequate way the manager has handled matters of his tenure have brought us to where we are now.

The responsibility for all of the above lies with Benitez...nobody else.

I think Rafa is a cautious manager but I don't think it should be overplayed (tbh, it's never really been properly explained how this 'cautious' approach has been so costly) because in my view it wasn't as significant as other factors (which were partly in player recruitment, but also in the basics of just coaching and motivating the team). And come on, last season we came back more times than stu-the-red has alter egos. Man U, Marseille, Man City, Wigan, AM, PSV, Hull, Arsenal, Portsmouth, Mancs again...and various other late winners/nearly moments. If the defensive approach is seemingly in the 'limited' 4-5-1 formation, it begs the question why we drew about as many league games with one up top as we did with two, and in a couple of the 'easiest' of those (Stoke, Fulham), we had Torres and Keane up front. In fact I'd say that by far our most expansive football came when we utilised the 'limited' 4-5-1 (or 4-2-3-1). At best there was little in it between the two. That points towards the underlying being something - if not entirely other than - then certainly much more than simply our adoption of the apparently 'limited' 4-5-1 formation.

This season is clearly different, though, much different. We haven't established the basics insofar as our defending has been awful and our control of games (stemming from midfield), inadequate. At the back, because of the severity of the problems I wouldn't mind if we changed from a zonal system to a man-to-man system, but it isn't a system that is inherently weak. We used to be very solid all round a few seasons ago using that system but because the players seem to have almost lost their sense of responsibility at defensive set plays, it may be a good idea for a change. Players can't hide as much if their responsibility is to mark 'that bloke there', and not 'any bloke that drifts into your zone'.

Has Rafa really 'frozen out' Benayoun? I was under the impression that he had started almost as many games as any other player this season? He has looked laboured recently but early on he was one of our best players.

Ben Patrick wrote:

7_Kewell wrote:

Ben Patrick wrote:

Sabre wrote:Finally he has found a team according to his quality, I think he will fit well there, lots of passion, little quality, and losing 4-0 against teams that are better skilled.

Congratulations Keane!

Sabre i dont get this post at all.

Are you saying that Keane is a poor player ?
Celtic are a poor side ?

Or both ?

both are pretty average. It makes me laugh when Celtic and Rangers say they want to join the premier league, they wouldn't win anything.

Not initially, but given time in the league they could possibly attract better players if they were in our league.
They obviously both have massive fan bases and would benefit from the extra revenue from SKY as well.

Within about 2-3 seasons i think they could be challenging for the top 4 possibly.

Sabre wrote:My conclussion is that he let down Liverpool, not Rafa.

It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

When of course he was given 30mins every game near enough to prove that. I'd say Keane tried too hard to impress and the pressure of not scoring freely got the better of him in the end.

I also saw a man trying hard, and in fact I praised him in the posts of that times. I also saw a man who wasn't big enough for a big club, and what's worse, he didn't fight enough to prove himself worthy for a big club. I wouldn't be saying this if he had stayed until the end of the season, fought for the title, and left like Bellamy did. I see no problems in what Bellamy did.

But besides trying hard, you have to be professional, and understand that if you have a drought of goals, you'll start being subbed and you'll even be sat down. If Keane thinks he was going to play because of a law says that a 18M player has to play, then he was wrong.

30 minutes in Liverpool are seen here as an insult to Keane, but I see them as a great opportunity when you come from a smaller club and you want to prove yourself in a big club. An opportunity that not every player that has underperformed in Liverpool had enjoyed, those 30 mins.

He failed, and now he has ended up in a team according to his failure.

It's a Rafa mistake, no doubt. He should have known better that player and maybe he should have noticed he's not a player for a big team.

And if you don't rate Keane I'd love to know what you think of the current players we have.

Compare with who, Ngog? I have a bias, I don't judge equally a player that comes from youth ranks and a player who's an international and comes for a lot of money.

Obviously I would be playing more happily with Keane than having to use Ngog, but I won't be as demanding with the younster as with the international.

made in UK wrote:

It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

And this brings the age old question of 'why' a player wants to leave so early in his contract. Players hand in requests when their unhappy and with Benitez I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider his lack of man-management skills played some part in Keane leaving early. Lets be fair here, Keane wasn't afforded the opportunities like less capable players in the current squad have been given. Rafa made some mind boggling decisions with Keane and most fans could see that and I'd say that Keane couldn't fathom the man out either (he wouldn't be the only one). Like I said I think poor management excelled Keane's departure and Liverpool F.C have suffered the consequences. Its also worth remembering on numerous occassions previously we've had good players leave because of scenarios like this.

I also saw a man trying hard, and in fact I praised him in the posts of that times. I also saw a man who wasn't big enough for a big club, and what's worse, he didn't fight enough to prove himself worthy for a big club.

Many player have fought hard enough during Rafa's time including Keane, Crouch would bang in a hatrick one week and find himself benched or on the left wing the next. Keane fought hard but similar with Aqualiani now never got an adequate run in the side to prove that.

If Keane thinks he was going to play because of a law says that a 18M player has to play, then he was wrong.

I don't know if he did think that and neither do you. But it is okay for Keane to think he's better than anyone else we had bar Torres and if he did think that he was right. But yet again under Rafa circumstances the better players can spend most of their time sat on their ar.ses watching the likes of Voronin, N'gog, Babel, Kuyt and Lucas out on the pitch instead.

30 minutes in Liverpool are seen here as an insult to Keane, but I see them as a great opportunity when you come from a smaller club and you want to prove yourself in a big club. An opportunity that not every player that has underperformed in Liverpool had enjoyed, those 30 mins.

Try not to sound too arrogant when refering to Spurs as a small club, there not. Havant and Waterlooville are a small club Spurs are not. Infact that "small club" is doing much better than its 'bigger counter-part' at the moment.

Crouch came from Portsmouth, played eighteen games upfront for us (and started most of them, if not all of them) without scoring. Keane on the other hand wasn't afforded the same luxury and Rafa shelled out 20 Million on him, like Aquailani. Its a lot of money considering you're only going to give a guy a cameo or small chance to play here and there.

Compare with who, Ngog? I have a bias, I don't judge equally a player that comes from youth ranks and a player who's an international and comes for a lot of money.

Obviously I would be playing more happily with Keane than having to use Ngog, but I won't be as demanding with the younster as with the international.

And this is the crux of the problem today isn't it. Certain members seem content with average players playing for their team and make excuses for both N'gog and Rafa. N'Gog is a great option for a fourth choice forward, not a second choice, surely NOT FOR A BIG CLUB LIKE US.

Isn't it funny? Let's take a closer look at our squad of fragile mentalities and desperate-for-a-hug-off-the-manager-types:

Reina - doesn't want to leave.
Carragher - doesn't want to leave.
Agger - doesn't want to leave.
Skrtel - doesn't want to leave.
Johnson - doesn't want to leave.
Insua - doesn't want to leave.
Aurelio - doesn't want to leave.
Lucas - doesn't want to leave.
Aqualani - doesn't want to leave.
Kuyt - doesn't want to leave.
Benayoun - doesn't want to leave.
Riera - doesn't want to leave.
Gerrard - doesn't want to leave.
N'gog - doesn't want to leave.
Torres - doesn't want to leave.
Spearing - doesn't want to leave.
Pacheco - doesn't want to leave.
Cavalieri - doesn't want to leave.
Degan - doesn't want to leave.

Mascherano - wants to leave but still plays well.
Babel - says he doesn't want to leave but it's obvious he's talking cr*p.


Hmmm... Rafa's really doing something wrong with this "keeping players happy" lark...!

Ben Patrick wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

Ben Patrick wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

tonyeh wrote:..to the crushing of Robbie Keane,

A bad signing, simple as that. Rafa was correct to sell him, the mistake was in failing to bring in a replacement.

i actually think they are really good posts from both made in uk and tonyeh personally

Eh? I didn't say they weren't.

The Keane signing was a bad mistake by Rafa whichever way you look at it. I thought it could've been managed better by Rafa, but my overwhelming feeling is that regardless of how much playing time he would've been afforded, he was never going to fit in because of the type of player that he was/is. He only had a handful (PSV, Everton, Arsenal, WBA, Bolton?) of good games for the club but generally speaking he very much struggled to get into games. There was maybe once or twice (e.g. City away) where I thought he should've started, but he started a lot of games despite being absolutely woeful in several of them and watching closely I thought it was clear that he wouldn't be the creative second striker we were looking for. At £20.3m I was expecting a whole lot more.

Well what i got from your post is that we just shouldnt have signed Keane full stop.
The other two posters where not saying that.
They were saying that he should have been managed better.

He is a better player than what he showed at LFC without a doubt.
If you spend 20 million on a player at Liverpool and he doesnt appear to meet the system, why not try and find a way of utilising his strengths ?
Rafa if i recall correct kept stating something like 'i will treat Robbie the same as all of the players, his price tag is irrelevant'

To me thats a ridiculous statement.
Our second highest transfer fee spent and he is just another player ?
Well he shouldnt be, if Rafa is spunking 20 million then the player needs to be a stand out player in the team.
I think Rafa should have tried to adapt once torres was injured and play a different system to get the best out of Robbie.
He is a player that with the right system could have flourished here, Rafa's ridgidness regarding tactics and lack of man management skills clearly fecked that signing up big time.