Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:08 am

made in UK wrote:It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

Yes, the £1m we spent on Keane really hit us hard.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:09 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
made in UK wrote:It's strange how some people just pass off Keane's signing as a failure by the manager and are more eager to pull the knives out and chastise H&G if things aren't going according to plan. When 'money is tight' you cannot afford costly mistakes like that and Rafa with his handling of the player really let the team down. Its fair to say Keane isn't an 'easy' player to find a position for in a team, at Spurs now Defoe and Crouch are the primary pairing, Keane isn't neither a goal poacher (like Defoe) or a target man like Crouch and the combination of Crouch and Defoe seems to work for them. Having said that if Rafa didn't have an idea about Keane and his slightly unique style then he shouldn't of wasted 20 million on him. But he did, and the fact Rafa couldn't or didn't accomodate him better makes him the one where the fault lies and like I said when money is 'tight' you can't afford to make eratic decisions like that.

Exactly, i know what i am about to type is in the words of steve mcclaren 'schpeculation'
But didnt Rafa and Pako fall out when Rafa spunked all that money on Babel at the last minute as Pako felt it was a gamble after missing out on their actual targets ?

I am sure thats what i heard.

The point being like you said, we cant afford to be so wasteful with money.

I heard you sh*gged a dead cat 'round the back of the local hen house.

My point is; don't believe everything you hear.

You dirty cat-f*cking b*stard. :no

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:13 am

tonyeh wrote:
Sabre wrote:Yes I also think they are clearly good posts and civilised discussion.

But if I have to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced. I asked why I was wrong thinking that it was more a case of Keane wanting to leave, and I've been answered this.

As far as I'm aware, Keane certainly didn't want to leave. He may have been unhappy, who wouldn't have been, being treated in the way he was? But he wanted to play for Liverpool. It's his team since he was a kid. He's a Liverpool fan. A dream come true he stated when he arrived here.

As much as it's a good post I only have an "As far as I'm aware" and the bit about it was his team as a kid, which I already knew.

For me to clarify that question is important, because if it was Rafa who wanted him out in winter and with no replacement, then my bitterness towards Keane would dissapear instantly and I'd have yet another thing to complain about Rafa (he said he wanted Keane in a press conference IIRC)

So if anyone has some quote, something to clarify that let me know (anyone).

I'm not interested on defending Rafa on this, nor his búllshít tactics, nor his failings, I'd have the same bitterness if we had ANY other manager. I just want to know exactly how it happened, and if I've missed something very obvious (some quote, some common knowledge), please let me know. I genuinely don't know what happened exactly.

For me it's entirely different if he wanted to leave badly on the rush, or it was the manager who wanted him out.

P.S. To Made UK: I said smaller club. Not small. Not wanting to sound arrogant. Both Alonso, Reina, Riera, Keane and Benayoun came from smaller clubs. Some of them delivered, some of them didn't, all of them under the same manager, with the same mistakes and failings.

P.S.2. If I remove my bitterness about Keane for a moment, yes, I think he's a very good player. I always thought so. But he left Liverpool in a bad moment for me, and I'd like to clarify the reasons.

But I can only go on what I am aware of Sabre and to be blunt, the idea that Benitez wanted Keane to stay and Keane wanted to go is absurd. Especially given all that transpired during the lads time at Liverpool.

It was Benitez who steered Keane's ship onto the rocks, not the other way around. Sure, the striker was struggling to fit into the manager's appalingly limited system (one of the main reasons for the overall failure), but he can only play the game that the manager assigns to him and as I said before, there are few strikers that can play the "1 up" well in the very defensive mindset that Benitez has shackled the team with. It's extremely difficult to do successfully. Even Torres has been marginalised out of games because of this awful tem set-up.

Everything about Keane's "body language" says to me that he wanted to play. He was extremely frustrated at being taken off, nearly every game he was involved in. He was seen warming up on several occasions on the sidelines, eager to get onto the pitch, only to be neglected by Benitez completely (even when he was the obivous choice striker for a sub!). He was baffled by Benitez's decisions to bench him, even though he'd scored the week previously! He was angry about the stupid way Benitez handled him. I don't blame him for being so. Also, as pointed out by Red_Guy, his goal scored against Liverpool in the last game of the year produced no celebration when he could have rubbed it in Benitez's face. He has also maintained a very dignified silence since his undignified handling.

That doesn't strike me as somebody who was dis-interested in playing for a football club.

I also understand somewhat where Keane is coming from. I'm from the the same Country as him, in fact from the same town and support for Liverpool and Manchester Utd is very strong over here. When Keane said it was a dream come true to play for Liverpool I believe he was being 100% sincere (unlike much of the guff that people in the footy would spout) and I just cannot believe that he would simply want to walk away from that opportunity after just 6 months of football.

On the other hand, we have Benitez's actions, which are all well known. Subbing the guy, no matter what form he was in. Benching him after goals. Not even putting him in the line-up crucial matches etc.

To me, that looks like a manager who doesn't want a particular player in HIS system.

It also looks like he's doing the same thing to Aqualini, which is a couse for worry.

In addition, I heard it was Spurs who approached Liverpool with the idea of buying back Keane and Benitez jumped at the chance to recoup the ridiculous amount of money he parted with in the first place. You saying that Robbie Keane wanted to go, is the first time I've heard of such a thing and it doesn't strike me as correct, given the preceding events.

In any case, regardless of whether Keane would have been eventually bashed into that round hole Benitez wanted him in, I just don't believe Liverpool WILL find a successful back-up for Torres. The over-defensive system Benitez won't move away from is the problem, not the choice of players, whether it's Keane, Toni, Van Nistelroy, Heskey, or even David Villa. Quite often, despite the natural inclination to attack, Liverpool are impotent in front of goal, because they play so deep or the midfield don't follow through on the attack. Which means that whoever is up top is doing an incredible amount of work to scratch around for a goal.

I personally believe that the last couple of months superb football at the end of last season, came about because Benitez had abandoned the idea of a league win (after the shambles post Christmas rant) and took the shackles off of the team...and it produced the incredible results we all were amazed at.

This year the shackles are back on and cowardly approach to the game/certain players is in full swing again and as I have repeatedly maintained...the chickens have come home to roost.

D'ya mean the "appallingly limited system" which managed to out-score every team in the Premiership?

:oops:

by **babu** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:47 am

Sorry I've not watched Keane play much this season. But doesn't the fact he may be sold to celtic mean that he hasn't performed too well this season?

And doesn't that in itself prove that selling him (from LFC) might have been a good decision, in hindsight?

Just asking.

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:24 pm

Just because a player's getting sold doesn't mean that he's not playing well.

Ronaldo, Tevez, Hypia, Alonso...

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:34 pm

LFC2007 wrote:

What I am actually saying is that the criticism ought, IMO, to have applied more to the composition of his squad rather than his 'decisions' and 'tactics'.

But, the "composition" of the squad is based on the 'decisions' of Benitez. The squad doesn't compose itself. The players don't just walk into the club.

I've long since argued players like Babel, Keane (in our setup), Dossena, Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are not good enough.

Agreed, and who 'decided' to bring them to the club?

Again, it's still coming down to the 'decisions', 'tactics', 'approach' and 'system' of the manager.

I don't really see your counterpoint to my argument here.

Has Rafa really 'frozen out' Benayoun? I was under the impression that he had started almost as many games as any other player this season?

THIS season. I'm talking about last season. Benny was on about walking at one point in the press.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:17 pm

tonyeh wrote:I don't really see your counterpoint to my argument here.

Perhaps in your eyes there is only one argument, one that doesn't allow for nuanced debate, one that is nice 'n' simple where people fit into one of two neat boxes; It's Rafa's fault, or it's not Rafa's fault.

The irony is that I'm actually criticising Rafa and you don't even realise it. In fact, I'm a hell of a lot closer to the 'It's Rafa's fault' box than you seem to think. I have been making a counter-argument of sorts, it's just not an 'all or nothing', 'with me or without' type of argument. It's one that seeks to shift the emphasis or focus of criticism away from Rafa's tactics or decisions (how Rafa deploys and manages his resources pitchside), and onto his determination of the composition of the squad, as well as other vitally important factors based on observations of our performances. That's why I made the comparisons between Tevez/Berbatov and Kuyt/Keane/Babel, and by 'other factors' I mean everything that takes place on the training pitch and in the dressing room; the part of Rafa's job where he is most involved with the players, but which typically receives little attention. That is precisely why I referred to our woeful defending at set plays (a key factor in our demise this season) and the general lack of gusto we see (ditto) as areas for improvement. You improve that by working with and motivating the players in training. You can point to the zonal system or the 4-5-1 system all day long but if we fail to apply ourselves it really isn't going to make that much difference.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:20 pm

It's Rafa's fault, or it's not Rafa's fault.

I didn't say that.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:46 pm

So facepalm...

by **made in UK** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:13 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
made in UK wrote:
It's not the body language which makes me think he thinks about himself, it's a broken contract and the fact he left in winter when he came in summer. Fact. That's rare. Correct me if I'm wrong but Keane was the one interested in leaving, more than Rafa wanting him out.

And this brings the age old question of 'why' a player wants to leave so early in his contract. Players hand in requests when their unhappy and with Benitez I don't think it would be unreasonable to consider his lack of man-management skills played some part in Keane leaving early. Lets be fair here, Keane wasn't afforded the opportunities like less capable players in the current squad have been given. Rafa made some mind boggling decisions with Keane and most fans could see that and I'd say that Keane couldn't fathom the man out either (he wouldn't be the only one). Like I said I think poor management excelled Keane's departure and Liverpool F.C have suffered the consequences. Its also worth remembering on numerous occassions previously we've had good players leave because of scenarios like this.

I also saw a man trying hard, and in fact I praised him in the posts of that times. I also saw a man who wasn't big enough for a big club, and what's worse, he didn't fight enough to prove himself worthy for a big club.

Many player have fought hard enough during Rafa's time including Keane, Crouch would bang in a hatrick one week and find himself benched or on the left wing the next. Keane fought hard but similar with Aqualiani now never got an adequate run in the side to prove that.

If Keane thinks he was going to play because of a law says that a 18M player has to play, then he was wrong.

I don't know if he did think that and neither do you. But it is okay for Keane to think he's better than anyone else we had bar Torres and if he did think that he was right. But yet again under Rafa circumstances the better players can spend most of their time sat on their ar.ses watching the likes of Voronin, N'gog, Babel, Kuyt and Lucas out on the pitch instead.

30 minutes in Liverpool are seen here as an insult to Keane, but I see them as a great opportunity when you come from a smaller club and you want to prove yourself in a big club. An opportunity that not every player that has underperformed in Liverpool had enjoyed, those 30 mins.

Try not to sound too arrogant when refering to Spurs as a small club, there not. Havant and Waterlooville are a small club Spurs are not. Infact that "small club" is doing much better than its 'bigger counter-part' at the moment.

Crouch came from Portsmouth, played eighteen games upfront for us (and started most of them, if not all of them) without scoring. Keane on the other hand wasn't afforded the same luxury and Rafa shelled out 20 Million on him, like Aquailani. Its a lot of money considering you're only going to give a guy a cameo or small chance to play here and there.

Compare with who, Ngog? I have a bias, I don't judge equally a player that comes from youth ranks and a player who's an international and comes for a lot of money.

Obviously I would be playing more happily with Keane than having to use Ngog, but I won't be as demanding with the younster as with the international.

And this is the crux of the problem today isn't it. Certain members seem content with average players playing for their team and make excuses for both N'gog and Rafa. N'Gog is a great option for a fourth choice forward, not a second choice, surely NOT FOR A BIG CLUB LIKE US.

Isn't it funny? Let's take a closer look at our squad of fragile mentalities and desperate-for-a-hug-off-the-manager-types:

Reina - doesn't want to leave.
Carragher - doesn't want to leave.
Agger - doesn't want to leave.
Skrtel - doesn't want to leave.
Johnson - doesn't want to leave.
Insua - doesn't want to leave.
Aurelio - doesn't want to leave.
Lucas - doesn't want to leave.
Aqualani - doesn't want to leave.
Kuyt - doesn't want to leave.
Benayoun - doesn't want to leave.
Riera - doesn't want to leave.
Gerrard - doesn't want to leave.
N'gog - doesn't want to leave.
Torres - doesn't want to leave.
Spearing - doesn't want to leave.
Pacheco - doesn't want to leave.
Cavalieri - doesn't want to leave.
Degan - doesn't want to leave.

Mascherano - wants to leave but still plays well.
Babel - says he doesn't want to leave but it's obvious he's talking cr*p.

Hmmm... Rafa's really doing something wrong with this "keeping players happy" lark...!

Open this potty mouth

:hearts

by **tonyeh** » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:38 pm

LFC2007 wrote:So facepalm...

You can "so facepalm" til your nose bleeds LFC2007, but the fact is, is that you haven't been very clear in what you're saying.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:29 am

You don't understand your own argument, let alone mine.

It's not easy to debate under those circumstances.

by **tonyeh** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:49 pm

LFC2007 wrote:You don't understand your own argument, let alone mine.

It's not easy to debate under those circumstances.

That's just idiotic.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:56 pm

Ok then, let's take a closer look.

In your last 'footy' post you couldn't see my 'counterpoint' to your argument in one of my original posts, following up this:

"I've long since argued players like Babel, Keane (in our setup), Dossena, Lucas, Voronin and Ngog are not good enough."

With; "Again, it's still coming down to the 'decisions', 'tactics', 'approach' and 'system' of the manager".

Therefore, the position you were arguing from could only have been one that attempted to argue against the assertion that it is not coming down to the "(everything Benitez is responsible for)" of Benitez. i.e. you thought I was mounting a defence of Rafa.

Given that my argument was not at all a defence of his mistakes but rather a reapportioning of the causes of our underpermance away from Rafa's 'tactics' and 'decisions' (which have already been defined and include such things as his 'limited 4-5-1 formation' and his 'decisions to take off attacking players') and toward his (yes, Rafa's) recruitment policy; that is, his determination of the composition of the squad (hence the reason I cited Babel, Lucas, Dossena, Keane and others, and used the term 'rather than' to denote I was making a distinction between these - his signings - and his 'decisions...and tactics'), along with 'other factors', defined as everything that takes place on the training pitch and in the dressing room, hence my stressing of the importance of 'application' in my last footy post, then it can be said that you got the wrong end of the stick completely and failed to understand where I was coming from.

by **tonyeh** » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:57 pm

Hang on, it's not for you to frame the terms of debate. "Decisions" of the manager includes the players Benitez decides to bring to the club. The also include (but are not restricted to) his "'limited 4-5-1 formation' and his 'decisions to take off attacking players' etc"

It's YOU who is the one who's not understanding the argument.

YOU said "What I am actually saying is that the criticism ought, IMO, to have applied more to the composition of his squad rather than his 'decisions' and 'tactics'."

THE CRITICISM OUGHT TO BE HAVE APPLIED MORE TO THE COMPOSITION OF THE SQUAD.

Well, WHO decides the composition of the squad?

Also, I am not saying you are defending Benitez here, but you seem to labouring under the impression that the composition of the squad is somehow not one of the manager's decisions and in your attempt to move "away from Rafa's 'tactics' and 'decisions'", you are creating a bit of an oxymoron.

BTW, I am not merely reducing all of Liverpool's faults down to Benitez. Let's at least make that clear.

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