Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:55 pm

lakes10 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:And as has been suggest - the game has moved since then - you yourself have said its a company and its about the money - Its not just about the League anymore - the CL is just as important - maybe even more important when it comes to trying to get the best players in the world - One of the reasons Torres came to us - Because he wanted CL football .

As for it being Rafas main goal - maybe becuase he is level headed enough to realise that the players he has had in the past werent good enough to win the league but had a great chance to win the CL - so could attack the CL while also ensuring we stay in the Top 4 - that way it enables him to get more money for players and to be able to attract the best players . Last year we went at both for the first time .

Im sorry but it is impossible now to just concentrate on the league .

so he took 67 players to our club and still did not think they could win the pem but only the CL......if that as the case he should have been sacked a long time ago.

no due to a string of bad buys and sales he hastaken the team apart and left us weak we our best players are not fit.

well lets half those players straight away half of them are just kids bought to see if they can be future stars - now the rest in ways have helped us progress and improve in the prem - last season showed that - now the problem we have had while rafa has had money to spend - 200 mil ish over 5 seasons - half of it he has had to get from players sales of his own the other half spread over 5 years equates to around 20 mil a season net spend - its not like a chelsea or a man city when its 200 million in one or two seasons to blow on numerous expensive players . We all know that Rafa has missed out on countless signings due to lack of the right amount of funds - Simao,Alves,Silva,Augero as well it seems - so he has had to get the cheaper second choice versions - the pennants and the freebies - the degens , the voronins . Yes he has bought a few bums - Voronin,Babel,Dossena and another number have not worked out like everyone expected - the keanes , the morientis , the babels . Others have been bought to increase the standard step by step - the crouches , sissokos etc then when he finally gets to buy the top world class stars they prove to be a success - the Torres , the Mashers as well as numerous other very good quality players at cheaper prices the kuyts,the xabis,the aggers etc

Every player was sold for a valid reason - both for the team or from the player himself and players were bought to increase the standard - now going by the overall progress it has been a success but at the moment things just not going right - we started poorly with the defeat at spurs and then villa but started a bit of run then the injuries hit us -johnson,agger,aurelio,skrtel,gerrard,reira plus not having aqualini ready just- now we showed we can win without gerrard but no team could survive without 6 plus regular first teamers UNLESS they have 10 mil plus players coming in as back up - we have never been able to get those players as back up as that was the sort of money we had to spend on first teamers .

Yes we could of kept other players and kept them as back up but the players that left didnt want that

Crouch,sami ,Momo ,warnock to name a few plus players like bellamy were sold to help fund torres coming in - then you had players that wanted to go home - Arbeloa,Little Luis as well as players coming towards the end of their careers at top 4 clubs - hamann,finnan etc then the others that left were blatently not good enough for top 4 - mellor,le tallec potter peltier guthrie.

That leaves one final person Xabi Alonso

We all know what happened summer 2008 - Rafa wanted to sell him to fund a purchase of Barry - why sell Xabi to get him ? - well because we couldnt afford him straight out . Also why sell Xabi anyway - well a big reason could be because between the years of 2006 and 2008 Xabi was a shadow of the player we first signed - his form was shocking and woeful at times and ordinary at other times so Rafa wanted to replace him with someone who was a proven very good quality player in the prem . Obviously what happened after that we all know - Xabi had a wonderful season and Madrid came sniffing and off he went - quick question ? why werent they in for him the summer before ?

nayway thats my story over - conclusion - it took ferguson 7 years and a lot of players to win the prem for the first time in 26 years - it took chelsea 250 mil in two seasons to win the prem .

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:44 am

Benny The Noon wrote:nayway thats my story over - conclusion - it took ferguson 7 years and a lot of players to win the prem for the first time in 26 years - it took chelsea 250 mil in two seasons to win the prem .

That's not really a conclusion though mate, it's two statements. Is the conclusion that if Rafa is at the helm for seven seasons that he will win the Premiership as well? Or is it that we'll need to give Rafa 250 million quid over two seasons in order for him to win it?

If it's the first one, then all is good because he's in his sixth season now. If it's the second one, then I think in the current financial climate and with our owners, I think it's unlikely to happen.

And what if the seventh season doesn't yield the title (it's probably unfair on the manager to expect it in truth), what then? What if this turns out to be our fourth without a trophy, what then? I guess what happens then is we revert to what each of us considers to be our "minimum standard". I do wonder sometimes though what some peoples minimum is, or indeed whether or not they have one.

For me, having shown we have a good enough team last season (and indeed in the season before that IMHO) to challenge for the title, we really ought to challenge for it each season. That doesn't mean we necessarily have to finish within four points like we did last time, but at least we should be able to put up a bona fide attempt. Being out of contention by the end of October, after ten matches is neither a realistic nor a bona fide challenge. Now for me, as that represents a serious step backwards on our previous efforts, if there aren't mitigating circumstances I'd be looking for a new manager at the end of the season.

Some people have more patience and "faith" in the manager than me, and that's fair enough of course. What if we don't challenge next season though, or the one after that? Do we actually have a minimum standard, or is it written in sand and we just rub it out each season and blame wherever we end up on the owners?

by **kazza** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:34 am

No minimum standard just support the team and have faith that with the support, the team will be lifted and play above themselves.

NOT sticking the knife in when the team is down and trying to convince anyone that listens to do the same. Not the actions of a "true supporter" as whether you have these "high standards" or not being positive is far more constructive than the dreary sh1t that pours out of you 24/7. Your posts do nothing but rile people up and will never affect the team's play, tactics or line up. So what is your point exactly as you do not have a monopoly on wanting to win, we all want to win but some would rather be positive and SUPPORT, something you do not seem to know about.

by **Owzat** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:37 am

kazza wrote:Your posts do nothing .................... and will never affect the team's play, tactics or line up.

It's a forum for opinions, only a seriously deluded idiot would think what they post on here will influence Rafa or in some way "affect the team's play, tactics or line up.

That said it would explain some of his tactics and purchases :laugh:

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:38 am

kazza wrote:No minimum standard just support the team and have faith that with the support, the team will be lifted and play above themselves.

NOT sticking the knife in when the team is down and trying to convince anyone that listens to do the same. Not the actions of a "true supporter" as whether you have these "high standards" or not being positive is far more constructive than the dreary sh1t that pours out of you 24/7. Your posts do nothing but rile people up and will never affect the team's play, tactics or line up. So what is your point exactly as you do not have a monopoly on wanting to win, we all want to win but some would rather be positive and SUPPORT, something you do not seem to know about.

by **kazza** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:43 am

Giving an opinion is one thing but going on and on and on means you are trying to change attitudes. If it is for the positive then fine no worries, but constant flak is not warranted (especially that we are is a sort of crisis with injuries). Some would rather be positive.

by **kazza** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:44 am

bigmick wrote:
kazza wrote:No minimum standard just support the team and have faith that with the support, the team will be lifted and play above themselves.

NOT sticking the knife in when the team is down and trying to convince anyone that listens to do the same. Not the actions of a "true supporter" as whether you have these "high standards" or not being positive is far more constructive than the dreary sh1t that pours out of you 24/7. Your posts do nothing but rile people up and will never affect the team's play, tactics or line up. So what is your point exactly as you do not have a monopoly on wanting to win, we all want to win but some would rather be positive and SUPPORT, something you do not seem to know about.

Hooya! I got mick to post a one liner, If only now we can get more positivity

(well done mate, we are progressing)

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:06 am

the conclusion was more to do with showing its not easy to win the prem without a bit of time or some serious spending in a short time to enable big players to come in all in one go as opposed to setting minimum standards . Obviously if we do start to go backwards then yes we do need to look at changing things at the end of a season , but not during it or because of a poor run , we have turned things round before and have faith we can do again .

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:09 am

lakes10 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:And as has been suggest - the game has moved since then - you yourself have said its a company and its about the money - Its not just about the League anymore - the CL is just as important - maybe even more important when it comes to trying to get the best players in the world - One of the reasons Torres came to us - Because he wanted CL football .

As for it being Rafas main goal - maybe becuase he is level headed enough to realise that the players he has had in the past werent good enough to win the league but had a great chance to win the CL - so could attack the CL while also ensuring we stay in the Top 4 - that way it enables him to get more money for players and to be able to attract the best players . Last year we went at both for the first time .

Im sorry but it is impossible now to just concentrate on the league .

so he took 67 players to our club and still did not think they could win the pem but only the CL......if that as the case he should have been sacked a long time ago.

no due to a string of bad buys and sales he hastaken the team apart and left us weak we our best players are not fit.

Where do you pluck these incorrect figures from?

Sort your life out.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 am

bigmick wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:nayway thats my story over - conclusion - it took ferguson 7 years and a lot of players to win the prem for the first time in 26 years - it took chelsea 250 mil in two seasons to win the prem .

That's not really a conclusion though mate, it's two statements. Is the conclusion that if Rafa is at the helm for seven seasons that he will win the Premiership as well? Or is it that we'll need to give Rafa 250 million quid over two seasons in order for him to win it?

If it's the first one, then all is good because he's in his sixth season now. If it's the second one, then I think in the current financial climate and with our owners, I think it's unlikely to happen.

And what if the seventh season doesn't yield the title (it's probably unfair on the manager to expect it in truth), what then? What if this turns out to be our fourth without a trophy, what then? I guess what happens then is we revert to what each of us considers to be our "minimum standard". I do wonder sometimes though what some peoples minimum is, or indeed whether or not they have one.

For me, having shown we have a good enough team last season (and indeed in the season before that IMHO) to challenge for the title, we really ought to challenge for it each season. That doesn't mean we necessarily have to finish within four points like we did last time, but at least we should be able to put up a bona fide attempt. Being out of contention by the end of October, after ten matches is neither a realistic nor a bona fide challenge. Now for me, as that represents a serious step backwards on our previous efforts, if there aren't mitigating circumstances I'd be looking for a new manager at the end of the season.

Some people have more patience and "faith" in the manager than me, and that's fair enough of course. What if we don't challenge next season though, or the one after that? Do we actually have a minimum standard, or is it written in sand and we just rub it out each season and blame wherever we end up on the owners?

What if you actually look at the situation without the prejudice? What if you analyze the accurate figures and drop the "I hate Rafa" pretense?

What if...?

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:24 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:And as has been suggest - the game has moved since then - you yourself have said its a company and its about the money - Its not just about the League anymore - the CL is just as important - maybe even more important when it comes to trying to get the best players in the world - One of the reasons Torres came to us - Because he wanted CL football .

As for it being Rafas main goal - maybe becuase he is level headed enough to realise that the players he has had in the past werent good enough to win the league but had a great chance to win the CL - so could attack the CL while also ensuring we stay in the Top 4 - that way it enables him to get more money for players and to be able to attract the best players . Last year we went at both for the first time .

Im sorry but it is impossible now to just concentrate on the league .

so he took 67 players to our club and still did not think they could win the pem but only the CL......if that as the case he should have been sacked a long time ago.

no due to a string of bad buys and sales he hastaken the team apart and left us weak we our best players are not fit.

Where do you pluck these incorrect figures from?

Sort your life out.

If you are talking about the 67 players Lakes quotes, it was in all the papers mate. No idea if thats the true figure, but it did go into great detail (not sure if I posted the article or not )

by **Dazzer** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:27 am

Benny The Noon wrote:the conclusion was more to do with showing its not easy to win the prem without a bit of time or some serious spending in a short time to enable big players to come in all in one go as opposed to setting minimum standards . Obviously if we do start to go backwards then yes we do need to look at changing things at the end of a season , but not during it or because of a poor run , we have turned things round before and have faith we can do again .

O the irony Your first dig at me was that I was making 10 posts a day and they was all rubbish you on 27 a day and they are indeed rubbish as well.

by **bigmick** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:34 am

I asked a question and suddenly I'm not a real fan and I'm looking at the situation with prejudice. Just to reiterate, I don't think we should sack the manager. Once again, I don't think we should sack the manager, I think it would be madness right now.

I'll rephrase the question again, do the died in the woll pro-Rafalites have a minimum standard which they would expect us to achieve or not? Is there any set of circumstances which are concieveable where they would look at it and say "you know what, I'm begining to think he might have taken us as far as he can". I can do the same the other way around quite easily. If we consistently challenge for the title and regularly win trophies, I was totally wrong about the manager. Even if you set the bar a bit lower, if he can consistently make us perform to either equal to or above the level which our playing resources indicate are possible, I think we should leave him alone and let him get on with it. Put another way, if we are up there and challenging for the title each season* then we should let him see out his five year contract.

*definition of "challenging". In with a chance of winning it, a realistic chance, until near the end. Am I asking too much

So as I say, I can be charitable and clearly define where I am coming from. Can others, or does being a "real fan" mean that regardless of how the team performs, you still advocate never changing the manager?

by **made in UK** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:36 am

heimdall wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Whoa please explain where i said he is as good as bellamy ?

There is a difference of opinion and then there is failing to see whats in front of your face - cant believe you had the gaul to suggest that finish against Man Utd was simple and then fail to back up statements like "he only scores tap ins" when the truth is the last two where far from tap ins.

Erm wasn't Wash one on one with Van der Sar, any striker who misses in that circumstance, and don't forget that VDS did get his hand to the shot, should be fecking sacked. I have not seen any great movement or vision from N'Gog and the goals he has scored up to now have been fairly simple tap ins, certainly nothing exciting.

you were comparing how many goals he had scored compared to Bellamy, if that isn't a direct comparison then I'm not quite sure what is?

You're still harping on about N'gog's goal against Man U.

'If he missed then he should be fecking sacked'.

I don't even know why I'm replying to this. Obviously you have never played football to make such a brainless comment like that.

If you think that finnish looked easy it was because N'gog made it look easy. Beating a sizeable frame like VDS when he's coming off his line to narrow the angle on a one on one is not easy. His finnish just shows how people like you take things for granted.

Cut him some slack or refrain from talking football as you clearly have no idea what you're on about.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:41 am

I don't think I could pass for a pro-Rafalite, but if we don't challenge for the title, don't progress in the CL and don't win a trophy( FA cup) I think it is time IN THE SUMMER to look for someone who can. Whether we could afford to, is another matter!

Maybe things will be easier to discuss later this evening, maybe we should just concentrate on tonights game ...... for now?

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