Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:58 pm

ps its Bobby Robson - and he still won nothing in the prem despite him being a top bloke .

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:59 pm

big al wrote:Dazzer many of the ex players have said this, its not your invenetion or my invention Neill Mellor has talked about Rafa's lack of a Human side openly. He descibed him as 'the most ruthless person I Know' Being ruthless is fine if you bring success. Rafa is worshiped by many LFC Fans because of Istanbul, go back and look at it again and you'll find the passion came from Carragher, Gerrard and Hamann. Benitez had no emotion whatsoever he still lacks emotion and the truth is that anyone who lives their life without emotion will never get the respect and comitment of others. How many rubbish newcastle players give everything for Bobby Robinson or better still how many average players worked their socks off for Bill Shankly

I know mate I just want to see a human side to him I know he is human becuase he looks like one but I never get the feeling he is.Like Torres will score he don't even clap or nothing.How can a manager really expect his players to give 110% if his players don't see the same effort from the manager its kinda a catch 22 thing in a way.

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:01 pm

Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I agree with it as well but I still see fact that rafa over 5 years even tho he has had to sell still has spent 220 off mil on players.But I still can't see where the 15 odd 15 mil players are is he hiding them somewhere ? When you do the math 220 mil gets you 15 ish 15 mil players You can take 1 and half off for Torres.If any thing that well thought out post just highlights more that Rafa has bought season on season instead of building a team over the 4-5 seasons.

Spending money equate to success.

This advice is a recipe for disaster and certain mediocrity.

Not saying it does far from it alot more has to go into it then just spending money I am sure there is a way to get more out of the team he has just its not working atm is it ? I was just making the point we coul dhave had a more ballanced squad then we do if Rafa hadn't bought so many maybe players ?

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:01 pm

SAme effort from the manager - you have not got the first clue about the amount of effort Rafa puts into the club - he is the first to arrive every day and the last to leave every day . He is focused during the game and concentrates on the game .

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:07 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:SAme effort from the manager - you have not got the first clue about the amount of effort Rafa puts into the club - he is the first to arrive every day and the last to leave every day . He is focused during the game and concentrates on the game .

Yes and he wasted all that looking like a cold Turkey on the pitch and showing no support for his players.I know Rafa puts work in with pre match stuff and on the training pitch but the players need someone on the level someone that enjoys the good times like they do and looks gutted when they do this is what is lacking with Rafa.Its very sad its like a missing piece for him I think if he could just open up a bit more and wear his heart on his sleeve like his captin does.

EDIT: look I am not asking him to turn into Tony Pulis over right and dance around the pitch like a headless chicken.but way Rafa is just a little fist punch or smile and nod would have such a impact I can't tell ya.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:14 pm

Dazzer wrote:Yes and he wasted all that looking like a cold Turkey on the pitch and showing no support for his players.

You are talking out your @rse, he puts our club before his wife and kids and family. To say he doesnt care is a complete and utter joke.

In the prem form guide we are 4th in the table, Spurs and City who spent over 200 million pound this summer sit 14th and 15th.

Not one window licking journo has pointed this out, Mark Hughes is not recieving one bit of flack after spending all that money, and dont get me started on if Rafa had bought berbatov he would have been hounded out the feckin country but no cant upset that arl gin soaked p!ssy kecks in Manchester can they?

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:18 pm

Ciggy wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Yes and he wasted all that looking like a cold Turkey on the pitch and showing no support for his players.

You are talking out your @rse, he puts our club before his wife and kids and family. To say he doesnt care is a complete and utter joke.

In the prem form guide we are 4th in the table, Spurs and City who spent over 200 million pound this summer sit 14th and 15th.

Not one window licking journo has pointed this out, Mark Hughes is not recieving one bit of flack after spending all that money, and dont get me started on if Rafa had bought berbatov he would have been hounded out the feckin country but no cant upset that arl gin soaked p!ssy kecks in Manchester can they?

See I didn't say he didn't care I said he looks like he don't care do you know the human mind processes body language over speech? did you also know when a player is on the pitch and body language is poor it can have a massive effect on his teams performance.I don't doubt for 1 secound Rafa cares about the club he sure as hell wouldn't be here atm if he didn't I just think he shoots him self in the foot with his Body language in games thats all sorry If I didn't get that across 100%.

by **banana** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:18 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:
Ciggy wrote:And was doomed to be a failure at Liverpool, I went mad when we signed him, he is an ok player just not suited to us, maybe 5 years ago but not now, take your irish glasses off for a minute.

I also didnt agree with the signing of Pennant, Bellamy and Barry aswell, 3 players that should not have come here either, ok only two did, they where big mistakes.

Although in saying that if barry would have signed for us than City we wouldnt have played so bad this season, hes no Alonso but an improvement on Lucas, plus Bellamy and Keane are better options to have than Ngog and Voronin.

And on the Vidic signing the mancs outbid us you know that so why bring it up?

Mate, I don't have Irish glasses on when I talk about Keane - believe me, I have seen him time and time again in a green jersey and don't rate him highly...
BUT, when he's all that the manager has, when he is proven to be capable of scoring goals, and the manager INSISTS on parking him on the bench or hauling his sorry ar$e off after 60-70 minutes when nobody else on the pitch is more likely to score a goal, then that is childish petulance on Benitez's part.

I'll agree with the Barry signing, and the improvement he undoubtedly would be over Lucas in particular. What I won't agree with is the unsettling effect the pursuit of Barry had on Alonso two seasons ago. The insistence by Benitez that Barry had more to offer than Barry. Absolutely ridiculous call for a supposed tactical genius. The writing was on the wall from the time that Benitez sought the affections of Barry, that Alonso would bite his lip and wait for the right time to go. I'm not saying we could or should have stopped Alonso from leaving, and kudos to the club for the profit we made on him, but the foundations for his departure were laid by Rafa, end of.

The point about the Vidic signing is that we were beaten to his signature again by the Mancs. If we were outbid, it was because funds were wasted elsewhere on journey men, simply wasted.

I don't think he wanted to replace Alonso with Barry because of Barrys superiority. He had to find some English players somewhere since the rules of the game is changing. This backfired. As has all the other "british" signings he has made to adapt to the new rules (Keane, Crouch, Bellamy etc).

It is hard to find good players with british passports besides those already playing at a top 4 team. Anyway, if you find them you are in for a fight with the others also chasing the same passports. Johnson was this years "passport-signing". It was expensive but, perhaps, necessary to follow the new rules of the game. Against Fulham Liverpool played with 1 - one - british player.

by **Espionage** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:19 pm

Dazzer wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I agree with it as well but I still see fact that rafa over 5 years even tho he has had to sell still has spent 220 off mil on players.But I still can't see where the 15 odd 15 mil players are is he hiding them somewhere ? When you do the math 220 mil gets you 15 ish 15 mil players You can take 1 and half off for Torres.If any thing that well thought out post just highlights more that Rafa has bought season on season instead of building a team over the 4-5 seasons.

Spending money equate to success.

This advice is a recipe for disaster and certain mediocrity.

Not saying it does far from it alot more has to go into it then just spending money I am sure there is a way to get more out of the team he has just its not working atm is it ? I was just making the point we coul dhave had a more ballanced squad then we do if Rafa hadn't bought so many maybe players ?

It seems that your whole arguement comes back to the fact that the players you think Rafa should buy are not maybe players. The 15M players that you speak about are still maybe players, and your argument is flawed.

Besides, you have to balance short-term and long-term goals. You do this by balancing experienced and in-experienced, high-profile and low-profile. If we only bought the "sure thing" and tried to win, we would need a Man City chequebook. Besides, you dont need a team of world beaters to win the league

Look at the post Ciggy quoted, read it carefully.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:22 pm

dazzer the last time rafa smiled when we scored and made a gesture he got crucified by not showing respect . The man cant fecking win can he .

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:24 pm

Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I agree with it as well but I still see fact that rafa over 5 years even tho he has had to sell still has spent 220 off mil on players.But I still can't see where the 15 odd 15 mil players are is he hiding them somewhere ? When you do the math 220 mil gets you 15 ish 15 mil players You can take 1 and half off for Torres.If any thing that well thought out post just highlights more that Rafa has bought season on season instead of building a team over the 4-5 seasons.

Spending money equate to success.

This advice is a recipe for disaster and certain mediocrity.

Not saying it does far from it alot more has to go into it then just spending money I am sure there is a way to get more out of the team he has just its not working atm is it ? I was just making the point we coul dhave had a more ballanced squad then we do if Rafa hadn't bought so many maybe players ?

It seems that your whole arguement comes back to the fact that the players you think Rafa should buy are not maybe players. The 15M players that you speak about are still maybe players, and your argument is flawed.

Besides, you have to balance short-term and long-term goals. You do this by balancing experienced and in-experienced, high-profile and low-profile. If we only bought the "sure thing" and tried to win, we would need a Man City chequebook. Besides, you dont need a team of world beaters to win the league

Look at the post Ciggy quoted, read it carefully.

I did read it but thing those stats don't show is signing on fee's more player you sign more that adds up 67 odd players at 500k to 1.5 mil each player for a standard 3-5 year deal adds up I can tell you.If you buy less players at higher price you get more for your money.Also 15 mil 4 yeara ago was the old 20 mil player the market atm due to citeh is stupid adding real to the list every club thinks their best players are worth 30 mil + but that wasn't set in stone 4 years ago even 2 years ago.

by **Dazzer** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:27 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:dazzer the last time rafa smiled when we scored and made a gesture he got crucified by not showing respect . The man cant fecking win can he .

Well I didn't see a smile that day tbph.Was that by me or any other liverpool fan or player that had a go ? Any ways feck what they think If I was rafa I just do it to pi.ss them bitter idiots off.

by **Espionage** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:31 pm

Dazzer wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Espionage wrote:
Dazzer wrote:I agree with it as well but I still see fact that rafa over 5 years even tho he has had to sell still has spent 220 off mil on players.But I still can't see where the 15 odd 15 mil players are is he hiding them somewhere ? When you do the math 220 mil gets you 15 ish 15 mil players You can take 1 and half off for Torres.If any thing that well thought out post just highlights more that Rafa has bought season on season instead of building a team over the 4-5 seasons.

Spending money equate to success.

This advice is a recipe for disaster and certain mediocrity.

Not saying it does far from it alot more has to go into it then just spending money I am sure there is a way to get more out of the team he has just its not working atm is it ? I was just making the point we coul dhave had a more ballanced squad then we do if Rafa hadn't bought so many maybe players ?

It seems that your whole arguement comes back to the fact that the players you think Rafa should buy are not maybe players. The 15M players that you speak about are still maybe players, and your argument is flawed.

Besides, you have to balance short-term and long-term goals. You do this by balancing experienced and in-experienced, high-profile and low-profile. If we only bought the "sure thing" and tried to win, we would need a Man City chequebook. Besides, you dont need a team of world beaters to win the league

Look at the post Ciggy quoted, read it carefully.

I did read it but thing those stats don't show is signing on fee's more player you sign more that adds up 67 odd players at 500k to 1.5 mil each player for a standard 3-5 year deal adds up I can tell you.If you buy less players at higher price you get more for your money.Also 15 mil 4 yeara ago was the old 20 mil player the market atm due to citeh is stupid adding real to the list every club thinks their best players are worth 30 mil + but that wasn't set in stone 4 years ago even 2 years ago.

The point you are making is wrong, you dont argue it well, and half the time what you write doesnt make sense.

I cant be bothered with this conversation

by **kazza** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:40 pm

Great post from cggy. It is true that we have over-achieved with Rafa when you think of lack of funds rather than under-achieved. Changing manager now would be madness. No doubt we will still hear how we lost 10 million on Keane in a six month period even though it has been proved we didn't time and time again. Some will criticise no matter what the deal.

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:55 pm

Is there 11 players that could win the league out of those lot? Our first 11 this season is capable of winning the league, so that answers that question. What is baffling is that Rafa let go of some quality players (albeit at a handsom profit) and replaced with complete sh*te like Voronin and Degen. When I heard we signed these two I cringed and wasn't too happy, even if both were a Bosman (or were they?) I can't really blame Rafa for signing players like Babel and Dossena. Both players have obvious abillity, but lacking mentality for this league. It happens. Doessena obviously found it hard to adjust to the pace of the EPL playing in the position he plays, which is understandable if you know Italian football. Don't know what Babel's excuse is. But anyway, let's compare:

Fergie bought Nani and Anderson. Manc supporter practically blew their loads (well, the one's I know) when he signed these over-hyped and relatively unknowns. But they had to be amazing considering they both cost about 40 million, or there abouts for the pair. I'm not going to drag out the stats on that one either, but if you look at say Rafa's equivalent buy which is Lucas to Anderson, then Lucas cost considerably less, captained the Brazilian under-21's, and is now playing for the first team. His form of late has spiked and is starting to show some of the promise of when Rafa first bought him, no more evident than in his bossing of the Manc midfield in the last two games against them, and steady performances here and there in the last couple of games. He's not been a revelation, but he has come in and done a job.
Then you look at Babel to Nani. Babel cost 11 million, was a highly rated prospect at Ajax and under-21 Holland international. Again, not dragging out the stats, but hasn't he scored more goals in all competition than the pudding called Nani? Fergie practically spunked 17 million pound on a circus act clown who does summersaults after a goal.

Here's my point in all of this: certain managers can get away with signing duds, while certain others can't. The whole "Rafa has bought one or two players, and the rest are duds" is a w"nker's argument, one which the press just loves to latch onto at any given oportunity.

Signing the likes of Voronin, Degen, Kromkamp, Keane, Babel etc etc is a justified argument that Rafa has made big errors at times in the market, but there isn't a manager alive that hasn't made f*ck ups when signing players. As far as I'm concerned, the one thing Benitez is truely guilty of is not signing the two or three players of adequate standard for this club to come from the reserves or the bench and make a big difference to our seasons. For this he has exercised poor judgement IMO, like buying Johnson when he should have been looking for a second striker, even though we did need a quality full-back and Johnson has since proven to be a massive improvement to the position. That's the thing: Rafa has built a quality first 11 and spent wisely (with the acception of Keane) in big money transfers to improve the respective first 11 areas, a first 11 that I believe is as good as any in the country. It's the bench where he's been found wanting.

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