Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:44 am

Dazzer wrote:
made in UK wrote:Oh how we could do with a Paul Thompkins blog right now!

Well even for tompkins its hard to paint this picture in a positive light tho I am expecting one soon I am sure he will try bless him.

He might wait till sunday and if we win put a positive spin on it knowing him.

God forbid someone might actually stick up for the club!

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:46 am

heimdall wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:time to lock this thread i think, everything has been said.

No not really don't try and get it shut others still talking about stuff.Just because you don't like whats being said don't mean it isn't a good thing to talk over.If you don't like it no one is forcing you to post or read in it.

Trouble is, there's a thread like this every time we find ourselves in a bit of bad form, so the same garbage gets rehashed from the same and usual suspects each and every time. Oddly enough, each and every time this happens, Rafa always seems to steady the ship.

Where are these other threads then? This is the first one I can remember in ages talking about sacking Rafa. Can you show me the other ones please?

What does that tell you? :idea

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:52 am

heimdall wrote:
baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:This is a proper good laugh this thread. I thought Jesper Carrot's stand up shows were top notch for laughter, but doesn't compare to some of the posts on here.

Peter Reid for Liverpool manager F***s sake, maybe we could try Dan Petruscu or Adrian Heath while we're at it. Sod it, try Adrian Chiles.

Liverpool don't play attacking football? Another classic. Didn't Rafa Benitez' Liverpool side score four against United last year? Didn't Rafa Benitez' Liverpool side score four against Arsenal last year? Didn't Rafa Benitez' Liverpool side score four against Chelsea last year? So we put four past the rest of the big four, oh how defensive we must be. Didn't Rafa Benitez' Liverpool side score more league goals than any other side in the league last year? Oh how defensive we must be. Haven't we scored four goals in three matches already this year, oh how defensive we must be. Didn't Fernando Torres score more goals than any other foreigner in their debut season back in 07/08 - how did he manage that with such a defensive manager setting defensive tactics? I suppose 33 goals were just luck.

Arbeloa didn't want to leave? Erm yes he did which is why he refused to sign a contract extension. And we didn't sell him to buy Glen Johnson as the former Portsmouth man arrived before we'd sold anybody this summer. Alonso only wanted to leave because of Rafa? Erm no he didn't, he wanted to leave because Real Madrid came in for him which is why his transfer request came in after Madrid made their interests known.

So if you're gonna continuously slag the manager off and making suggestions as to why he should be sacked, at least make them credible. If not, then belt up complaining and get behind the manager.

That is by a long way one of your better posts Baldrick in that you made some good points, most of which I agreed with, without actually abusing anyone directly. I don't mean to be patronising but well done, please carry on like that and don't descend to Lando's level of slagging everyone off who you don't agree with.

Anyway one question, why did Arby and Alonso want to leave, surely some of the reason must be down to Rafa?

Yes Baldrick - take no notice of the nasty man...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:53 am

heimdall wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
stmichael wrote:No self respecting manager will want to come to a club with absolutely bugger all money or ambition anyway which is what the current owners have reduced our club to.

If you sack him they will be lining up mate I don't care who is running our club people want to manage it , Its in the top 3 greatest clubs in world so who the feck would turn it down ?

Not going to happen mate.
People talk about Mourinho and mon, do you honestly think they would leave their respective clubs to be ring master for us?
Its like people say we should have signed this player or that assuming it could have been done "just like that".
Considering we only got Johnson because pompy were due us and we managed to get Aquilani with paying less than half up front, how much have we really spent? Its all on tick which means less money for us in the future.

hmm managing Aston Villa or Liverpool, yeah that would be a tough one
Why do you sh1t on our club by suggesting no one wants to manage it? that's actually starting to p1ss me off a bit, stop disrespecting the club I love please.

Shut up you tit, how am I sh!tting on the club by stating the obvious?
Mourinho is in a well paid and well backed job and mon wasnt interested in the job when he was at celtic so why now with the club in the state it is and after coming out today stating how strong his squad is?
You might think villa are some small back water club but he doenst and he`s got a good relationship with Learner, if you think he would swap the hard work that is now paying off at villa to come to us, a side he`s trying to or you could say is overtaking you dont have a very good understanding of the man imo,and thats aside from the fact he has stated because of personal issues he needs to be in the midlands.

You are so right, I have no fecking idea what makes MON tick but then neither do you, or are you best mates with him or something? Liverpool is clearly a far more attractive club to manage than Aston Villa, who had there heyday about 100 years ago!!

Anyway stop slagging off LFC by suggesting no one wants to manage us, it's disloyal and disrespectfull!!

Whereas slagging Rafa off constantly is neither disloyal OR disrespectful, naturally...

You utter a*se.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:54 am

Fowler_E7 wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Fowler_E7 wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
baldricks_cunning_plan wrote:
dawson99 wrote:no, cant agree. its naive to completely blame the owners and lay off Rafa. He has made mistake afetr istake in his signings and his stubbornness...

I'm behind the manager as ong as he is manager, but he's destroying our chances again and again. why, when we have money probs, does he spend SOOO much on a player who cant even play for months... he has signed over 60 players and most of them were useless.

Yes the owners suck, but you cant lay all the blame with them!

Because who were the alternatives? Lee Cattemole for f***s sake. For the limited money that Rafa has to spend (raised by selling players, not by the owners giving) Aquilani was the best option available in Rafa's eyes and after spending big on Xabi and Masch (in our comparison) I'd trust him when it comes to spending big on a central midfielder.

If the owners provided proper funds and didn't force Rafa to sell his players, then we would be in a better position. Truth is, it's the owners fault for bleeding the club dry of any funds from their own back pocket.

So if no alternatives just blow the lot on a crock?

We have funds, we have signed more players than most teams... just they are poor players. And the subs he is doing...madness...

I a, just becoming dissalussioned with Rafa lately, but lets just see what he can do

Since when has Aquilani been a crock? He hasn't even kicked a ball yet for us. Ask the Roma fans what they think of the player, or ineed anyone who knows Italian football. Most are very, very upset that he left. He's one of the jewels of Serie A. To buy a fully fit, on form Aquilani would have probably priced us out as per usual.

What if Ronaldo, or Kaka were injured with the recovery window of a few months. What if their value suddenly dropped because of this and we could afford to get either one of them for dirt cheap? Would anyone in here be critical of our manager then for buying a class player for under the odds? I don't think so.

aquliani is nowhere near the class of Kaka or Ronaldo though is he, so your point is irrelevant. Van der vart and Snijder who are both superior players to Aquilani were available and fit for cheaper prices in the summer and yet we passed on them, that makes zero sense to me.

Seen him play often, have you?

yeah i have quite a few times actually, its pretty obvious you haven't if you think hes in Kaka and Ronaldo's class.

Hmmm...

Did I say he was?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:14 am

Dazzer wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Reg wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:Especially annoying when you see good english players being bought for sub 10m prices - Turner, Cattermole, Owen, Warnock, etc

All of which would improve our current squad and surely would of chosen Liverpool over the teams they are at now.

If Rafa goes, I would like a manager that appreciates the quality of English players.

Turner cost 12Mil didn't he? Cattermole would have been a good buy for us. Would easily keep Lucas out of the squad imo.

Yeah but Rafael only had 1.5 million to spend so you have to point the finger at whoever provides the money - the owners.

Only cos he wasted 20 mil on a player who ain't even fit.Omg you talk such bullsh.it.

We have parted with £5m for Aquilani so far you dork.

Where's the other £27m from Alonso's sale?

You're boring me now - nothing but speculation and your own imagination.

Well done some research 17 mil plus some sort of bonus we have to pay and it says nothing about 5 mil up front.

So where have you see this info its only 5 mil up front ? I also like to add they take full amount of transfers out of managers kitties when they buy players not just what they paying up front because then the manager could abuse the transfer kitty more and run clubs into debt not smart buisness.

Have you got typing Tourette Syndrome lando just out of instrest ?

Has "dork" suddenly been reclassified as a swear word now - just out of "instrest"...?

Do you live on planet Earth? It is common knowledge that the £20m is made up of many clauses and we only actually paid £5m up front. (Ergo, if he turns out to be utter sh*t we won't pay the full amount.)

Still - keep bleating, you big girl.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:21 am

As a prelude to my post I'll say I think we should stick with the manager until the end of the season at the very least. That said, a few people have asked for viable alternatives should he walk/get the push (once again I don't think either eventuality will come to pass).

For my money, despite the owners I think there would be a veritable stampede of interested candidates. Liverpool remain one of the most prestigious clubs in the World, and we play in the most prestigious league in the World. What's more, what with the credit cruch and recent precident, there is only Man City who will significantly outspend us, and we already have some good players. Any manager worth his slats would think that he had a chance of achieving something at Liverpool.

So who would it be? Well everyone probably knows who my overwhelming first choice would be so no point in going there here, and I've no doubt people would mention the likes of Lippi, Van Gaal, Hiddink, Rjyykjaard etc.

I also have a hunch that Harry Redknapps success at Tottenham, and Steve Bruces at Sunderland as well as Martin O Neills at Villa may be a precursor for Chairmen looking a bit closer to Home when they are looking for a new manager. Whether or not a club the size of ours would go down that route is doubtful, bu certainly Man Utd haven't faired too badly with a Scottish manager, and come to that in the past neither have we either. To that end, I think Gordon Strachan did enough in his previous jobs to prove he has bags of ability, he would do a good job at a big club I'm sure of it. As an up and comer, I must admit I've been extremely impressed with the job Owen Coyle has done at Burnley. I think they'll go down, but the fact he's got them there and within three points of us after nine matches is extraordinary. I think he'll go onto bigger and better things one day too.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:28 am

The old "add ons"

. More nonsense is talked on these forms these days about the old "add ons" than anything else. When you agree to buy a player and it's 5 million down, plus five million per season for two more seasons then you are paying 15 million quid for him. You can't send him back after the first season and say, "you know what, we don't want him anymore". You can sell him back at a huge loss (as in the Keane scenario) but you can't just give him back and not be liable.

In Aquilani's case, the "common knowledge"/speculation was that he was going to cost 5 million per season for three seasons plus an additional million per season should we qualify for the Champions League, plus appearance bonuses etc etc. I suppose there is a chance we might miss out on paying a Champions League add on this season as it's turning out, but whichever way you look at it it's 18-20 million quid.

Many many transfers are paid in installments, not just ours. Equally, if we spend 20 million next season andpeople start talking about "plus 16 million in add ons for various previous purchases" it just gets silly. 18-20 million quid for Aquilani, take your pick.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:41 am

Dazzer wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
bunglemark2 wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
stmichael wrote:No self respecting manager will want to come to a club with absolutely bugger all money or ambition anyway which is what the current owners have reduced our club to.

If you sack him they will be lining up mate I don't care who is running our club people want to manage it , Its in the top 3 greatest clubs in world so who the feck would turn it down ?

With no money to spend, and a pair of bickering idiots like Waldorf and Statler in charge....personally, I can't see a rush of applicants...Dunno where YOU think they're gonna come from...

Managers love challanges and if Rafa went tomorrow its the sort of challange that can turn a manager into a ledgend and thats what would bring them.Its win - win for any manager who would come in if they fail blame the owners if they win something they go down heroes of world football.

I was thinking last night about martin yol what you think , I think he is little gem of a manager he built that spurs team and look how well its performing now.

You are one seriously deluded individual.

Why cos my view differs from yours care to argue what I said is wrong or just keep letting you condition rule you posts ?

Its very easy to just go and post and make fun of others views but its harder to back them up with tangible evidence that the view is wrong ? Not like you a football writer or ex player with any sort of proven background in football so your word is far from golden.

Friend - I'm going to make this really simple for you.

Your argument: "We should replace Rafa Benitez with Peter Reid, Harry Redknapp, Martin Jol, etc."

Have you not grasped the fact that your argument is far too poor to bother countering? If you function at that level of stupidity I'm not sure I can condescend sufficiently to converse in a way you might understand.

I get the feeling that I should get a particularly slow toddler to translate my words into a form you might be able to decipher (Bright colours, swirly things and such...). Of course, that would require your mind to reach the very limit of it's abilities and you would need to employ the aid of several brain surgeons, NASA and every Nobel Prize winner since old Alfred popped his clogs. (Are you any good with resurrection?)

Reading your posts is, at times, like reading the diaries of a failed suicide bomber - 3 days after having 80% of his head blown away by his own inadequate explosion: The strikingly similar wrist-slitting reflections, the over-reactionary factually-incorrect ranting and the small but telling stains of dribble on the page. To make matters worse, your "buddies" pat you on the back and encourage even more rot to come out of your sparsely-populated cranium.

Tell me - how can anyone debate with an idiot who has made his little mind up? A pointless punk lacking all perspicacity is no use to anyone.

So - you want a debate; I personally think you need a nurse to wipe your chin and put you down for a nice nap.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:48 am

bigmick wrote:The old "add ons" . More nonsense is talked on these forms these days about the old "add ons" than anything else. When you agree to buy a player and it's 5 million down, plus five million per season for two more seasons then you are paying 15 million quid for him. You can't send him back after the first season and say, "you know what, we don't want him anymore". You can sell him back at a huge loss (as in the Keane scenario) but you can't just give him back and not be liable.

In Aquilani's case, the "common knowledge"/speculation was that he was going to cost 5 million per season for three seasons plus an additional million per season should we qualify for the Champions League, plus appearance bonuses etc etc. I suppose there is a chance we might miss out on paying a Champions League add on this season as it's turning out, but whichever way you look at it it's 18-20 million quid.

Many many transfers are paid in installments, not just ours. Equally, if we spend 20 million next season andpeople start talking about "plus 16 million in add ons for various previous purchases" it just gets silly. 18-20 million quid for Aquilani, take your pick.

So what you are essentially saying is your entire post was pointless?

We spent £5m on Aquilani THIS SEASON.

My question was; where is the rest of the money?

The answer, as I am sure most normal people have worked out, is that the owners have withheld/spunked it.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:58 am

I think the two are seperate points to be honest. Nobody has to convince me that the owners are a pair of c...s, nor that they have had their fingers in the till both this Summer and in previous ones. No arguments there.

I'm simply making the point that having agreed to pay 18-20 million quid for Aquilani, be it in installments or otherwise (which as I say is very common in football) we will end up paying that for him, whether or not he is "utter sh!t" as you said earlier (which I suspect he won't be anyway).

by **Octsky** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:29 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:The old "add ons" . More nonsense is talked on these forms these days about the old "add ons" than anything else. When you agree to buy a player and it's 5 million down, plus five million per season for two more seasons then you are paying 15 million quid for him. You can't send him back after the first season and say, "you know what, we don't want him anymore". You can sell him back at a huge loss (as in the Keane scenario) but you can't just give him back and not be liable.

In Aquilani's case, the "common knowledge"/speculation was that he was going to cost 5 million per season for three seasons plus an additional million per season should we qualify for the Champions League, plus appearance bonuses etc etc. I suppose there is a chance we might miss out on paying a Champions League add on this season as it's turning out, but whichever way you look at it it's 18-20 million quid.

Many many transfers are paid in installments, not just ours. Equally, if we spend 20 million next season andpeople start talking about "plus 16 million in add ons for various previous purchases" it just gets silly. 18-20 million quid for Aquilani, take your pick.

So what you are essentially saying is your entire post was pointless?

We spent £5m on Aquilani THIS SEASON.

My question was; where is the rest of the money?

The answer, as I am sure most normal people have worked out, is that the owners have withheld/spunked it.

5 mil per season, it what we term as cash flow out per season.
But the deal will still be book as the full 18 mil maybe 3-4 mil as provisions depending on performance, as a prudence concept, we if sign players on the basis of cash flow, we will be over-leveraged if things goes bad and may end up like Leeds.
eg) Rafa is given 20 mil this season, if he use leveraging he can use this 20 mil to sign players that are worth up to 80 mil using the basis of 5 mil for 1st installment. and it doesnt make sense. Therefore if you sign Aquaman for 20 mil, it will be book as a 20 mil deal regardless of payments in 10 or 100 installments.

And it true most deals are done by installments.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:43 am

Octsky wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:The old "add ons" . More nonsense is talked on these forms these days about the old "add ons" than anything else. When you agree to buy a player and it's 5 million down, plus five million per season for two more seasons then you are paying 15 million quid for him. You can't send him back after the first season and say, "you know what, we don't want him anymore". You can sell him back at a huge loss (as in the Keane scenario) but you can't just give him back and not be liable.

In Aquilani's case, the "common knowledge"/speculation was that he was going to cost 5 million per season for three seasons plus an additional million per season should we qualify for the Champions League, plus appearance bonuses etc etc. I suppose there is a chance we might miss out on paying a Champions League add on this season as it's turning out, but whichever way you look at it it's 18-20 million quid.

Many many transfers are paid in installments, not just ours. Equally, if we spend 20 million next season andpeople start talking about "plus 16 million in add ons for various previous purchases" it just gets silly. 18-20 million quid for Aquilani, take your pick.

So what you are essentially saying is your entire post was pointless?

We spent £5m on Aquilani THIS SEASON.

My question was; where is the rest of the money?

The answer, as I am sure most normal people have worked out, is that the owners have withheld/spunked it.

5 mil per season, it what we term as cash flow out per season.
But the deal will still be book as the full 18 mil maybe 3-4 mil as provisions depending on performance, as a prudence concept, we if sign players on the basis of cash flow, we will be over-leveraged if things goes bad and may end up like Leeds.
eg) Rafa is given 20 mil this season, if he use leveraging he can use this 20 mil to sign players that are worth up to 80 mil using the basis of 5 mil for 1st installment. and it doesnt make sense. Therefore if you sign Aquaman for 20 mil, it will be book as a 20 mil deal regardless of payments in 10 or 100 installments.

And it true most deals are done by installments.

I am aware of all of this. My point is was and will be that we have only paid £5m.

If the conditions are not met we will pay no more.

Otherwise, what is the point in a clause? "You get £1m for every season we enter the Champions' League, but we'll give you £1m even if we don't"?

Come off it!

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:49 am

The Champions League part of the transfer obviously won't be payable if we don't qualify. Equally obviously though, the year two and year three 5 million pound payments will be payable regardless. It's not that difficult to understand really.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:29 am

bigmick wrote:The Champions League part of the transfer obviously won't be payable if we don't qualify. Equally obviously though, the year two and year three 5 million pound payments will be payable regardless. It's not that difficult to understand really.

It's appearance-related, isn't it?

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