Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:49 am

Rockthekop wrote:People seem to forget that unlike Kuyt or Lucas, Babel hasn't had any kind of run in the team.

I'm afraid this idea doesn't cut any ice with me anymore. He's been given plenty of chances to impress and force himself into Rafa's thinking--the start at Spurs on opening day being just the latest example. The fact is, he hasn't grasped these opportunities with any conviction and that's why he continues to make limited substitute appearances (and rightly so). One need only look at Yossi Benayoun to understand how a bit-part player (which he very much was for us) can force his way into the manager's first-team reckoning with some quality performances from the subs bench. If Babel had shown anywhere near the commitment and impact that Benayoun did coming off the bench, I'm sure he'd been in or around the starting 11 too.

by **Rockthekop** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:45 am

Of course he's had chances as a sub mostly but I'm talking about a consecutive run of games from the start.

Playing him on the left clearly doesn't work. Rafa should try playing him on the right or up front (in the absence of Torres) where he seems much more comfortable and confident.

If doesn't work out then I'll throw in the towel.

by **stmichael** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:52 am

Rockthekop wrote:Rafa should try playing him on the right or up front (in the absence of Torres) where he seems much more comfortable and confident.

Babel hasn't got the technical ability to play that role for the freaking u18 side, let alone the first team.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:03 am

Rockthekop wrote:Of course he's had chances as a sub mostly but I'm talking about a consecutive run of games from the start.

No way. He's got to earn the right to play a run of consecutive games with good performances as a sub and he patently has not done so. Again, I present Benayoun as the counterpoint: through a series of superb substitute appearances Yossi earned the right to get into the starting 11 on a frequent basis during the run in last season and he's gone from strength to strength ever since. Babel has not done enough to earn his place in the starting 11 for a run of games. As for the playing on the left thing, while I agree that he seems ill-suited to some of the demands in that position what I think lets him down most is his decision making and overall lackadaisical attitude (Wed. night excepted)...the very things that shouldn't be an issue regardless of where he plays. Again, I wouldn't consider Yossi a particularly strong wide player yet line him up wide left, wide right or through the middle and he still gives you effort and creativity in spades. Like the 'run of games' argument, the 'out of position' argument is a bit of a red herring with Babel, IMHO.

by **akumaface** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:18 am

The worse thing about Babel more often or not, he looked so lazy on the pitch. It seems he was not giving any effort. I think fans notice this kind of thing. He also doesn't seem able to mesh with the team. His brain and mentality is the problem. It will do some good if he listens more. I think he really does think he is the next Henry.....

by **Dazzer** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 6:15 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Rockthekop wrote:Of course he's had chances as a sub mostly but I'm talking about a consecutive run of games from the start.

No way. He's got to earn the right to play a run of consecutive games with good performances as a sub and he patently has not done so. Again, I present Benayoun as the counterpoint: through a series of superb substitute appearances Yossi earned the right to get into the starting 11 on a frequent basis during the run in last season and he's gone from strength to strength ever since. Babel has not done enough to earn his place in the starting 11 for a run of games. As for the playing on the left thing, while I agree that he seems ill-suited to some of the demands in that position what I think lets him down most is his decision making and overall lackadaisical attitude (Wed. night excepted)...the very things that shouldn't be an issue regardless of where he plays. Again, I wouldn't consider Yossi a particularly strong wide player yet line him up wide left, wide right or through the middle and he still gives you effort and creativity in spades. Like the 'run of games' argument, the 'out of position' argument is a bit of a red herring with Babel, IMHO.

Yeah but bob that is true but 95% of games he plays in he plays on left and he is right footed.When he plays on left he looks like a 1 trick pony and defenders know 9 times out of ten he will cut inside due to weakness on his left foot.So my point and I think a few others on here is play him on the right he naturaly will go down the flank more and stretch the defence rather then being predictable.

I hear alot of people saying he is like henry I don't think so not by a mile but one thing I can say he is same as Henry is first 2 seasons at our club like Henry he has been playing in wrong area of the pitch.

by **Owzat** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:06 am

You can't just play a player who hasn't earned the right on the right just to give him a chance. The right flank has two players who've earned the right more, just because Babel has no left foot doesn't mean the team should be changed to accomodate him. Next people will be suggesting we give Voronin a chance up front because all he gets are sub appearances, bye bye Fernando, you are our best striker but it's not fair on Andrei if he doesn't start 11 or so games in a row to see what he can do.

The point is, if Babel had shown enough in his subs appearances then he might get more starts. He hasn't. The only way to force your way into the side is to play well when you get the chance. He hasn't.

The TEAM is way more important than any one player and even more so than Babel

by **Dazzer** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:55 am

Owzat wrote:You can't just play a player who hasn't earned the right on the right just to give him a chance. The right flank has two players who've earned the right more, just because Babel has no left foot doesn't mean the team should be changed to accomodate him. Next people will be suggesting we give Voronin a chance up front because all he gets are sub appearances, bye bye Fernando, you are our best striker but it's not fair on Andrei if he doesn't start 11 or so games in a row to see what he can do.

The point is, if Babel had shown enough in his subs appearances then he might get more starts. He hasn't. The only way to force your way into the side is to play well when you get the chance. He hasn't.

The TEAM is way more important than any one player and even more so than Babel

Now you just being fecking pedantic at no point did I say we should start him every game and boot out other players who at this moment in time are performing well.The only point I was making is if we see babel play It would be in his best instrests and the teams best instrests to play him on the right as he is cack on the left. :glare:

by **Ben Patrick** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:28 am

Dazzer wrote:
Owzat wrote:You can't just play a player who hasn't earned the right on the right just to give him a chance. The right flank has two players who've earned the right more, just because Babel has no left foot doesn't mean the team should be changed to accomodate him. Next people will be suggesting we give Voronin a chance up front because all he gets are sub appearances, bye bye Fernando, you are our best striker but it's not fair on Andrei if he doesn't start 11 or so games in a row to see what he can do.

The point is, if Babel had shown enough in his subs appearances then he might get more starts. He hasn't. The only way to force your way into the side is to play well when you get the chance. He hasn't.

The TEAM is way more important than any one player and even more so than Babel

Now you just being fecking pedantic at no point did I say we should start him every game and boot out other players who at this moment in time are performing well.The only point I was making is if we see babel play It would be in his best instrests and the teams best instrests to play him on the right as he is cack on the left.

I actually think he would be just as sh!te if he was wide right.
his problem is his decision making and if he is isolated out wide right or left he gets it wrong almost every time.
Thats why earlier in this thread i suggested if we wanted to get the best out of Babel we would be better playing the system he is used to which is 4-3-3 with him being one of the strikers right or left.
Thats how he was brought up at Ajax and how he plays for Holland so does Kuyt so with both of those either side of Torres it could work.
We would possibly lose width on the left though as Insua and Aurellio wouldnt support the attack as much as Johnson does on the right.
Also Benayoun has been that good you couldnt leave him out so although i am suggesting 4-3-3 would be better for Babel i dont think for one minute it would make us a better side.
I would carry on playing the system we are playing but if we are going to use Babel as a substitute i would prefer us to change to 4-3-3 for the time he is on the pitch and see how he goes for the last 15 minutes or whatever time he is given.
One thing is for sure bringing him on wide left has not worked hardly ever so its worth a consideration imo.

by **Dazzer** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 11:23 am

Ben Patrick wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Owzat wrote:You can't just play a player who hasn't earned the right on the right just to give him a chance. The right flank has two players who've earned the right more, just because Babel has no left foot doesn't mean the team should be changed to accomodate him. Next people will be suggesting we give Voronin a chance up front because all he gets are sub appearances, bye bye Fernando, you are our best striker but it's not fair on Andrei if he doesn't start 11 or so games in a row to see what he can do.

The point is, if Babel had shown enough in his subs appearances then he might get more starts. He hasn't. The only way to force your way into the side is to play well when you get the chance. He hasn't.

The TEAM is way more important than any one player and even more so than Babel

Now you just being fecking pedantic at no point did I say we should start him every game and boot out other players who at this moment in time are performing well.The only point I was making is if we see babel play It would be in his best instrests and the teams best instrests to play him on the right as he is cack on the left.

I actually think he would be just as sh!te if he was wide right.
his problem is his decision making and if he is isolated out wide right or left he gets it wrong almost every time.
Thats why earlier in this thread i suggested if we wanted to get the best out of Babel we would be better playing the system he is used to which is 4-3-3 with him being one of the strikers right or left.
Thats how he was brought up at Ajax and how he plays for Holland so does Kuyt so with both of those either side of Torres it could work.
We would possibly lose width on the left though as Insua and Aurellio wouldnt support the attack as much as Johnson does on the right.
Also Benayoun has been that good you couldnt leave him out so although i am suggesting 4-3-3 would be better for Babel i dont think for one minute it would make us a better side.
I would carry on playing the system we are playing but if we are going to use Babel as a substitute i would prefer us to change to 4-3-3 for the time he is on the pitch and see how he goes for the last 15 minutes or whatever time he is given.
One thing is for sure bringing him on wide left has not worked hardly ever so its worth a consideration imo.

But he looked good on right tho last 10 other night and CL where he started wide right he looked alot better setup 2 goals I personaly feel its alot to do with he has a bad lefty. :oops:

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:42 pm

Dazzer wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Owzat wrote:You can't just play a player who hasn't earned the right on the right just to give him a chance. The right flank has two players who've earned the right more, just because Babel has no left foot doesn't mean the team should be changed to accomodate him. Next people will be suggesting we give Voronin a chance up front because all he gets are sub appearances, bye bye Fernando, you are our best striker but it's not fair on Andrei if he doesn't start 11 or so games in a row to see what he can do.

The point is, if Babel had shown enough in his subs appearances then he might get more starts. He hasn't. The only way to force your way into the side is to play well when you get the chance. He hasn't.

The TEAM is way more important than any one player and even more so than Babel

Now you just being fecking pedantic at no point did I say we should start him every game and boot out other players who at this moment in time are performing well.The only point I was making is if we see babel play It would be in his best instrests and the teams best instrests to play him on the right as he is cack on the left.

I actually think he would be just as sh!te if he was wide right.
his problem is his decision making and if he is isolated out wide right or left he gets it wrong almost every time.
Thats why earlier in this thread i suggested if we wanted to get the best out of Babel we would be better playing the system he is used to which is 4-3-3 with him being one of the strikers right or left.
Thats how he was brought up at Ajax and how he plays for Holland so does Kuyt so with both of those either side of Torres it could work.
We would possibly lose width on the left though as Insua and Aurellio wouldnt support the attack as much as Johnson does on the right.
Also Benayoun has been that good you couldnt leave him out so although i am suggesting 4-3-3 would be better for Babel i dont think for one minute it would make us a better side.
I would carry on playing the system we are playing but if we are going to use Babel as a substitute i would prefer us to change to 4-3-3 for the time he is on the pitch and see how he goes for the last 15 minutes or whatever time he is given.
One thing is for sure bringing him on wide left has not worked hardly ever so its worth a consideration imo.

But he looked good on right tho last 10 other night and CL where he started wide right he looked alot better setup 2 goals I personaly feel its alot to do with he has a bad lefty.

How much of that was due to playing down the right and how much of it was due to coming on against tired opposition, though? Look, I think you might be correct in saying he'd be somewhat more effective for us on the right than on the left but I think Ben and Owzat are both spot on: Babel's biggest problem is his decision making and commitment--which far overshadows his one-footedness; moreover, Babel has not done enough to earn a spot on the right ahead of Kuyt or Yossi. If we stick to the notion of playing our best available 11, Babel's best starting position is undoubtedly sitting on the subs bench.

by **Fauxy** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Its official Babel is better on the right wing

by **The_Rock** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:29 pm

Play babel on the right or upfront and he might do a job for us....Play him on the left and screw up his LFC career like crouch and keane.

by **Fauxy** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:33 pm

Kuyt is still definetly ahead of him though, and so is Benayoun so I still wouldnt give him a place in the starting line up until he has proved to us that he is a consistent performer on that right wing.

by **Bad Bob** » Sat Sep 19, 2009 7:33 pm

I agree that Babel seems to have more confidence down the right and ergo is more effective there. But, IMHO, it's not just the change in position that's led to an improvement--I see a change in attitude as well. He was putting tackles in today, chasing lost causes and generally looking to impose himself on the game. He still had his usual quota of poor decisions, running down blind alleys and slow thinking but these things detract less when he's showing he's up for it and seems determined to contribute. I contend that he'll always be a somewhat limited player but there's absolutely no question that he can be a piece of the puzzle if he continues to show the commitment he showed today.

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