Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:10 pm

Well fortunately in the interview I saw with Rafa after the Bolton game, he talked of having the "option" of moving Gerrard back so we might be about to make the change.

There's been some really odd responses to various posts over the last few hours though. People have alluded to Lucas being the "new Kuyt", and I think they're right based on some of the silliness over the last few pages. Suddenly if you are of the opinion that Lucas isn't up to the role he is being asked to play but possibly might be up to being the holder, or even playing off Torres, you're not a real fan. That old chestnut. "Real fans" of course support the players, "lets get behind him and not write him off". It doesn't matter of course that you implicitly say that not only are you not writing him off, but even that you ae indifferent to whether Lucas or Masherano plays alongside Gerrard. It doesn't matter because the blanket throwers choose not to read.

I did say earlier that anybody who can't see that Lucas is unable to perform the role he is currently being asked to is clueless IMHO, and I stick by that. The identity of the people who leapt in doesn't change my mind any.

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:22 pm

kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:By contrast, when someone's sole contribution froma creative sense is passing it five yards sideways and backwards, when he also fecks up the thing from a defensive sense people start to get a bit hot under the collar.

Now who is being clueless. I am not saying he is a world beater but your statement quoted is as clueless as saying he is as important as Gerrard. Or were you being sarcastic, because I can never tell. Clearly he has done better than a five yard pass, but don't let the truth get in the way.

When Carra first started he was awful in some games (and I don't mean that Utd game either). Thank feck that this forum was not running then otherwise we may never have seen him develop into the player he is.

Lucas is 22 and will develop both mentally and physically. I was much stronger, faster and dare I say it more confident when I was 28 than when I was 22, so there is plenty of room for improvement, writing him off now is riduculous.

Point is we are stuck with him and we need him at his best and the only way that that will happen is to support him both as a team and as fans. Constant ridicule will never make the situation any better. So what do we want? To whine and moan, or to see the best of a LIVERPOOL PLAYER. Sorry to say but constant attacks on the player are NOT the actions of true fans.

I would much rather win than have everyone think I am clever

Hmmm, where to start.

Look, it's not about writing Lucas off, giving up on him, shoving him on the scrapheap or any of that nonsense. Nobody knows what type of player he'll be in six years time, how good he'll be etc etc, but I'm not sure that's entirely relavent to the discussion (infact I'm pretty sure it isn't). There is to quote you "plenty of room for improvement" but once again that isn't the point.

The point quite simply is does playing Lucas in the central midfield role he is currently being asked to play maximise the playing resources at our disposal? Simple really.

Now he may mirror your aaparent development from 22 to 28, many players do, but it will be little compensation to many "real fans" to see that he has become quite a good player in 6 years time whoever he is playing for then, after Gerrard and Carragher have retired, Torres has fecked off etc etc.

It's Liverpool Football Club, not Lucaspool Football club and the point about moving Gerrard back is that it will IMHO increase our chances of winning football matches as of NOW. I actually think it will dramatically improve our chances.

Lastly onto your point about us being "stuck with him". This is precisely it, we aren't. We have a World Class central midfielder who we could put in there in the short term until Aquilani is fit, when hopefully he'll be quite good too. We aren't "stuck" with anything. As I've said a couple of times (and I know you won't bother reading this bit, you didn't last time) I'm not even overly fussed about who makes way for Gerrard. My own choice would be Lucas, but he could certainly have a go at doing Masherano's job at the moment. Lucas/Masherano though doesn't work against any team which you are expected to dominate. If you can't or won't see that, then that's unfortunate but there you go.

by **Bammo** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:22 pm

I agree that Lucas isn't performing the role he's been asked too but there are some on here that think it means he is therefore a poor player. He isn't (he's not top class either, mind!).

The 2 holding DM worked last season because of Alonso's range of passing. I'm happy for Lucas to start games while Aquilani is injured but he needs to play further forwards. That's not just because he can't fulfil the "Alonso" role.

Against weaker teams, such as those we are about to play in succession, we do not need 2 DM. I'd much rather we played 4-1-4-1, 4-1-3-2 or even 4-3-3 against them. It's that age old dilemma - do you pick the players to fit the system or pick the system to fit the players?

When Rafa first arrived he tried 4-2-3-1 and it didn't work because the players didn't suit it. We then went to 4-4-2. Perhaps he'll revert to that for a while if necessary.

by **metalhead** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:31 pm

Bammo wrote:I agree that Lucas isn't performing the role he's been asked too but there are some on here that think it means he is therefore a poor player. He isn't (he's not top class either, mind!).

The 2 holding DM worked last season because of Alonso's range of passing. I'm happy for Lucas to start games while Aquilani is injured but he needs to play further forwards. That's not just because he can't fulfil the "Alonso" role.

Against weaker teams, such as those we are about to play in succession, we do not need 2 DM. I'd much rather we played 4-1-4-1, 4-1-3-2 or even 4-3-3 against them. It's that age old dilemma - do you pick the players to fit the system or pick the system to fit the players?

When Rafa first arrived he tried 4-2-3-1 and it didn't work because the players didn't suit it. We then went to 4-4-2. Perhaps he'll revert to that for a while if necessary.

Its simple, he is pretty average for a top club IMO, maybe he will do well with other lower grade teams, but for top not in a million years.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:35 pm

bigmick wrote:Well fortunately in the interview I saw with Rafa after the Bolton game, he talked of having the "option" of moving Gerrard back so we might be about to make the change.

There's been some really odd responses to various posts over the last few hours though. People have alluded to Lucas being the "new Kuyt", and I think they're right based on some of the silliness over the last few pages. Suddenly if you are of the opinion that Lucas isn't up to the role he is being asked to play but possibly might be up to being the holder, or even playing off Torres, you're not a real fan. That old chestnut. "Real fans" of course support the players, "lets get behind him and not write him off". It doesn't matter of course that you implicitly say that not only are you not writing him off, but even that you ae indifferent to whether Lucas or Masherano plays alongside Gerrard. It doesn't matter because the blanket throwers choose not to read.

I did say earlier that anybody who can't see that Lucas is unable to perform the role he is currently being asked to is clueless IMHO, and I stick by that. The identity of the people who leapt in doesn't change my mind any.

This thread is ridiculous Mick dont even bother getting involved with people just make your points and let it be...

With regards to who makes way for Gerrard, i wouldnt mind Lucas partnering him much either, but i just fail to see what Lucas brings to the table that Mascherano doesnt... Positional awareness perhaps ? arguable i guess .. but with all the silly freekicks he gives away in dangerous positions i'd be more inclined to take that little extra risk (if indeed there was one) and play Mascherano there and try and drill it in that he doesnt have to go around chasing the ball for 90mins... In terms of passing? neither is any good to be honest, so its not a big factor in the decision i wouldnt think...goal threat? ditto...

Personally, id play Mascherano ahead of Lucas in most games... especially home games when our fullbacks go forward and we have 3 players (2CBs & DM) covering at the back... But wouldnt make much of a difference i guess as long as Gerrard is in the middle controlling play...

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:43 pm

Moving away from Lucas and the posturers for a moment, the one good thing which is coming out of his obvious inadequacy for the role he's trying to play is that the focus is being turned off Masherano. I actually think the form of the Argentine has been very worrying so far (and I'm very much an advocate of Mash, one of my favourite players). Hopefully it's just that as the deficiency alongside him is so obvious he's trying to overcompensate by become more expansive. If that is the case, once he gets a partner who is significantly more suitable for the role, he can settle back into being the top class holder we all know and love.

It's definately the flipside to the "real fan" merchants who shiudder at the thought of not leaving Lucas in the team for the next six seasons in the hope he'll improve though. There are consequences when you play players in roles which they are incapable of filling, there are knock on effects on others.

As I've said many times, when a player loses form and confidence it doesn't just magically come back at the snap of a finger. As it is, we run the very real risk of waiting for Aquilani only to discover that when he comes in, regardless of how good he is his midfield partner is in the doldrums form wise.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:57 pm

bigmick wrote:Moving away from Lucas and the posturers for a moment, the one good thing which is coming out of his obvious inadequacy for the role he's trying to play is that the focus is being turned off Masherano.

Maybe I missed it, but how's this a good thing?

by **bigmick** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:03 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Moving away from Lucas and the posturers for a moment, the one good thing which is coming out of his obvious inadequacy for the role he's trying to play is that the focus is being turned off Masherano.

Maybe I missed it, but how's this a good thing?

Well only in that most of the attention is being focused on Lucas LFC, and in the sense that I guess Masherano is being given the chance to find some form out of the glare of the spotlight. For me though he is a mile behind what he is capable of right now, players breaking onto us from all directions and if it was him who lost Avi Cohens son for the second goal against Bolton, that is completely out of character but also completely out of order as well.

At his best he is terrier like but has good positional sense as well. At the moment he always looks under pressure, and is having to make tackles through getting slightly wrong side. It may also be my imagination but he looks to me like he's put a few pounds on as well.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:19 pm

bigmick wrote:For me though he is a mile behind what he is capable of right now, players breaking onto us from all directions and if it was him who lost Avi Cohens son for the second goal against Bolton, that is completely out of character but also completely out of order as well.

At his best he is terrier like but has good positional sense as well. At the moment he always looks under pressure, and is having to make tackles through getting slightly wrong side. It may also be my imagination but he looks to me like he's put a few pounds on as well.

He hasn't been at his best for a while I think. Not since his first full season has he consistently played to the best of his abilities. A little bit like how Alonso dipped, funnily enough.

by **aCe'** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:19 pm

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Moving away from Lucas and the posturers for a moment, the one good thing which is coming out of his obvious inadequacy for the role he's trying to play is that the focus is being turned off Masherano.

Maybe I missed it, but how's this a good thing?

Well only in that most of the attention is being focused on Lucas LFC, and in the sense that I guess Masherano is being given the chance to find some form out of the glare of the spotlight. For me though he is a mile behind what he is capable of right now, players breaking onto us from all directions and if it was him who lost Avi Cohens son for the second goal against Bolton, that is completely out of character but also completely out of order as well.

At his best he is terrier like but has good positional sense as well. At the moment he always looks under pressure, and is having to make tackles through getting slightly wrong side. It may also be my imagination but he looks to me like he's put a few pounds on as well.

It wasnt him, i dont think... Think it was Lucas who slipped in the area which left Cohen clear on goal...

Agree that Mascherano doesnt look his usual self so far but think it has more to do with the midfield partnership not working out than him not performing up to standards.. One thing i've noticed from the Tottenham and Villa games is that the pressure from the 2 holding midfielders is almost nonexistent at times... Seem to back off and retreat sometimes when they should be ushering the player and ball out of danger areas...

Thing about Mascherano defensively though is that i think he does much better when we're the side controlling proceedings and not the other way around.. Most of his good defensive work comes from stopping opposition from breaking out on the counter, when hes running back to cover positions.. Utilizes his main assets (speed and tackling ability).. Dont think hes that great as a Hamann, Makelele type to sit and try and stop opposition from playing higher up...

To me hes an overrated player... good enough to play at a high level but think people over exaggerate his influence in the side...

by **LFC2007** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:37 pm

aCe' wrote:It wasnt him, i dont think... Think it was Lucas who slipped in the area which left Cohen clear on goal...

It was Masch who failed to pick up the run of Cohen.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:26 pm

LFC2007 wrote:He hasn't been at his best for a while I think. Not since his first full season has he consistently played to the best of his abilities. A little bit like how Alonso dipped, funnily enough.

I agree.

That doesn't mean Masch hasn't played well on occasion, it doesn't mean he is cr@p, it just means the overall level of his performance hasn't been as consistantly high.

Just thought I would get the disclaimers in first this time

by **LFC2007** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:04 am

As you're typing you begin to realise that you HAVE to say what you're not saying in addition to what you're trying to get across, mainly to fend off GYBS

by **bigmick** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:07 am

LFC2007 wrote:As you're typing you begin to realise that you HAVE to say what you're not saying in addition to what you're trying to get across, mainly to fend of GYBS

I remember when you first came back you said the forum had changed, you were right :laugh:

by **LFC2007** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:09 am

LFC2007 wrote:*mainly to fend of GYBS

* but not exclusively

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