Liverpool FC Forum

by **redbeergoggles** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:38 pm

Firstly I would like to say , I'm genuinely surprised at just how many posters advocate the selling of Mascherano ,surely it is obvious to all who have seen him play that his sale would be to the detriment of our football club .

Ok lets summarize this in the simplest terms I can muster ,and lets for the sake of potential debate call this thread the importance of Mascherano and his true worth .

I expect some fans have omitted from their memory just how essential a player like Mascherano, playing at the top of his game is pivotal to Liverpool assuming control of the midfield .

Lets take the many aspects of Javiers game and break them down ,firstly his ability to nullify the attacking threat of our opponents ,this is second to none, there are few Midfielder's capable of dominating the centre of the park with such ease .

I think all of us who have seen the passion he puts into his game ,realize the depth of feeling he has for the fans and likewise the club ,also his reading of the game is essential to Liverpool's cause .

finally many fans have seemingly began to overlook his propensity to condense the space between an opponents midfield and attack ,this again can not be overstated .

In short Mascherano is key to the continued strength of our midfield ,you simply do not lose your best players ,especially those deserving of the title world class ..

So for the sake of this thread being bracketed into yet another Mascherano thread ,lets call this the world class thread, and in it you can describe what attributes a player needs to be merited with the above title ,and simply define why you have included this player .

It can be any player ,from any team ,with one rule he must still ply his trade now and not be a player from the past

by **aCe'** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:55 pm

you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..
you want names of other players who play central midfield who offer more... well.. Essien, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Alonso, Scholes... and thats just in the English league... theres probably atleast 10 if not more players who play the same position in other leagues who offer more... Hes a big name in world football and people often immediately link that to him being world class.. fair enough but i just think that the term is thrown around a little too often for my liking nowadays...

Defensive midfielders who are better than Mascherano in no particular order: DeRossi, Essien, Cambiasso, Alonso, Ballack, J.Zanneti... theres more i guess but those are ones that pop to mind i think... all round, any of the above are better than Mascherano and they play the same role/position he does when he plays with us...

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:57 pm

I like Mascherano a lot, he does for us what Roy Keane did for united, only better (as he plays for us

). For me though, Reina is world class. The only other goalkeeper I consider better, purely because of experience is Casillas. There are times when Reina has his off days but for me Reina is right up there as one of the best and will be at Liverpool possibly until the end of his career. A good keeper instills confidence throughout the defence, and the awards Reina has won since being at Liverpool shows his worth.

by **redbeergoggles** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:15 am

aCe' wrote:you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..
you want names of other players who play central midfield who offer more... well.. Essien, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Alonso, Scholes... and thats just in the English league... theres probably atleast 10 if not more players who play the same position in other leagues who offer more... Hes a big name in world football and people often immediately link that to him being world class.. fair enough but i just think that the term is thrown around a little too often for my liking nowadays...

Defensive midfielders who are better than Mascherano in no particular order: DeRossi, Essien, Cambiasso, Alonso, Ballack, J.Zanneti... theres more i guess but those are ones that pop to mind i think... all round, any of the above are better than Mascherano and they play the same role/position he does when he plays with us...

I was going to engage in some football debate with you ,but your argument took an unpredecented nosedive when you quoted Ballack ahead of Gerrard (so much for debate ! ) your statement simply confirms my opinion ,as for your selection of De rossi does the word liability have any relevance to you ,no doubt he has ability but would he stay on the field long enough ? the boys a thug who would make Joey Barton wince ....

I think making a somewhat sweeping generalization ,I don't think I need to reply to any of your posts as I would deem it a waste of the little time I spend on here ...

by **we all dream...** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:18 am

aCe' wrote:you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..

So he is 1of the best at what he does.. But not world class at what he does because he is only 1of the best at what he does, not what he doesn't do. So he is world class at what he does but not what he doesn't do? Sign the man up, he's world class at what he does best!

i think what u mean is he doesnt offer enough going forwards n i for 1 would agree meaning that if we were better equiped in an attacking sense then he can be a and has been a world class atribute 2our team in his position which is a holding / defensive midfielder.

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:53 am

redbeergoggles wrote:
aCe' wrote:you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..
you want names of other players who play central midfield who offer more... well.. Essien, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Alonso, Scholes... and thats just in the English league... theres probably atleast 10 if not more players who play the same position in other leagues who offer more... Hes a big name in world football and people often immediately link that to him being world class.. fair enough but i just think that the term is thrown around a little too often for my liking nowadays...

Defensive midfielders who are better than Mascherano in no particular order: DeRossi, Essien, Cambiasso, Alonso, Ballack, J.Zanneti... theres more i guess but those are ones that pop to mind i think... all round, any of the above are better than Mascherano and they play the same role/position he does when he plays with us...

I was going to engage in some football debate with you ,but your argument took an unpredecented nosedive when you quoted Ballack ahead of Gerrard (so much for debate ! ) your statement simply confirms my opinion ,as for your selection of De rossi does the word liability have any relevance to you ,no doubt he has ability but would he stay on the field long enough ? the boys a thug who would make Joey Barton wince ....

I think making a somewhat sweeping generalization ,I don't think I need to reply to any of your posts as I would deem it a waste of the little time I spend on here ...

Wasnt Ballack ahead of Gerrard it was a list and i was thinking of the top4 one club at a time hence Essien, Ballack -Fabregas -Gerrard, Alonso...etc etc...

As for DeRossi, Keane and Vieira often saw red, doesnt change from the fact they were both "world class" and some of the best midfielders in the world... DeRossi is wanted by some of the biggest clubs in the world and is one of the highest rated midfielders around and not many would disagree with that (surprisingly not even on this forum) ... wouldnt quite call him a 'liability' but end of the day its your opinion so fair enough..

Back to Mascherano though, what does he offer the side besides defensive cover ? he's class in that department dont get me wrong... his work rate, his tackling, energy, even positioning and awareness are second to none... does that make him world class ? im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure...
His position is a funny one i think...
One end you have defensive midfielders who are brilliant on the ball, the likes of Pirlo, Alonso, Gonzales, Cambiasso and Guti (when played there)...
Other end you have others like Gattuso, Mascherano, Sissoko..etc who do little, very little besides defending and stop play rather than creating it...
Ofcourse you have others who seem to have a little of both.. the likes of Essien, Ballck, DeRossi, Aquilani...etc etc

Im not sure how YOU see things but personally i dont think you need a player like Mascherano in 9 out of every 10 games you play in the league against smaller sides... You talk about controlling the play and all that... When we're on the ball he offers absolutely nothing in terms of controllong the play... if anything, he's more a liability than an asset in that department.. When we dont have the ball, to me it becomes a question of how good the opposition are and how we cope with that.. You have teams like Arsenal, Barcelona, ManUtd..etc who seem comfortable in defending against all sorts of opposition despite not having a midfield destropyer in the mascherano mold..

My point is... against a Stoke or Fulham or anyone really outside the other top 3, i'd take Niko Krankjar or Jimmy Bullard who are both nowhere near as good as Mascherano ahead of him quite simply because i think that in THAT GAME, they'd offer the team alot more than he would...

about the time you spend here... not little enough buddy

by **redbeergoggles** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:57 am

redbeergoggles wrote:
aCe' wrote:you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..
you want names of other players who play central midfield who offer more... well.. Essien, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Alonso, Scholes... and thats just in the English league... theres probably atleast 10 if not more players who play the same position in other leagues who offer more... Hes a big name in world football and people often immediately link that to him being world class.. fair enough but i just think that the term is thrown around a little too often for my liking nowadays...

Defensive midfielders who are better than Mascherano in no particular order: DeRossi, Essien, Cambiasso, Alonso, Ballack, J.Zanneti... theres more i guess but those are ones that pop to mind i think... all round, any of the above are better than Mascherano and they play the same role/position he does when he plays with us...

I was going to engage in some football debate with you ,but your argument took an unpredecented nosedive when you quoted Ballack ahead of Gerrard (so much for debate ! ) your statement simply confirms my opinion ,as for your selection of De rossi does the word liability have any relevance to you ,no doubt he has ability but would he stay on the field long enough ? the boys a thug who would make Joey Barton wince ....

I think making a somewhat sweeping generalization ,I don't think I need to reply to any of your posts as I would deem it a waste of the little time I spend on here ...

Learn to take a hint ,I couldn't have put it any clearer, maybe you should try reading it again, especially the last few lines where it quite clearly states, why I would not even consider replying to any of your future posts, its obvious your football philosophy is evidently on a different hemisphere, while also being totally devoid of any real depth ,its clearly more along the lines of a mancs train of thought ........ are you sure you support Liverpool ,because if you break down most of your threads its difficult to determine where your allegiance lies ,you rarely have a genuinely good thing to say about the Reds, unless its the Red Devils that really float your boat.

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:06 am

aCe' wrote:Back to Mascherano though, what does he offer the side besides defensive cover ? he's class in that department dont get me wrong... his work rate, his tackling, energy, even positioning and awareness are second to none... does that make him world class ?

Errrr....if hes second to none then would that make him the best at what he does? If thats isnt world class what is?

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:12 am

redbeergoggles wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:
aCe' wrote:you only have one attribute up there and you just figured out 3 different ways of wording it... BRAVO...
Hes a very good player... one of the best in what he does.. in everything else he is average.. simple as..
you want names of other players who play central midfield who offer more... well.. Essien, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Alonso, Scholes... and thats just in the English league... theres probably atleast 10 if not more players who play the same position in other leagues who offer more... Hes a big name in world football and people often immediately link that to him being world class.. fair enough but i just think that the term is thrown around a little too often for my liking nowadays...

Defensive midfielders who are better than Mascherano in no particular order: DeRossi, Essien, Cambiasso, Alonso, Ballack, J.Zanneti... theres more i guess but those are ones that pop to mind i think... all round, any of the above are better than Mascherano and they play the same role/position he does when he plays with us...

I was going to engage in some football debate with you ,but your argument took an unpredecented nosedive when you quoted Ballack ahead of Gerrard (so much for debate ! ) your statement simply confirms my opinion ,as for your selection of De rossi does the word liability have any relevance to you ,no doubt he has ability but would he stay on the field long enough ? the boys a thug who would make Joey Barton wince ....

I think making a somewhat sweeping generalization ,I don't think I need to reply to any of your posts as I would deem it a waste of the little time I spend on here ...

Learn to take a hint ,I couldn't have put it any clearer, maybe you should try reading it again, especially the last few lines where it quite clearly states, why I would not even consider replying to any of your future posts, its obvious your football philosophy is evidently on a different hemisphere, while also being totally devoid of any real depth ,its clearly more along the lines of a mancs train of thought ........ are you sure you support Liverpool ,because if you break down most of your threads its difficult to determine where your allegiance lies ,you rarely have a genuinely good thing to say about the Reds, unless its the Red Devils that really float your boat.

back to your time machine fella...
sad to hear you wont be honoring my posts with replies anymore but i have this feeling deep deep inside that somehow ill be able to live with it... :kungfu:

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:22 am

Kharhaz wrote:
aCe' wrote:Back to Mascherano though, what does he offer the side besides defensive cover ? he's class in that department dont get me wrong... his work rate, his tackling, energy, even positioning and awareness are second to none... does that make him world class ?

Errrr....if hes second to none then would that make him the best at what he does? If thats isnt world class what is?

"im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure..."

if only you would have quoted this bit which was 2 spaces away along with that...

Anyways.. At what he does, i have absolutely no doubt that hes one of the best if not THE best in the world... but then again, that imo doesnt qualify him as a world class player.... not even a world class midfielder...

Unless you decide that the best tackler amongst midfielders is "world class", the best passer amongst midfielders is "worldclass", the best crosser of a ball amongst midfielders is "world class", the fastest, strongest midfielder is "world clas"...etc etc...

You get the point... overall, he's significantly lacking in other areas... as such, i'd have other players (who play the same position) who are 'overall' better than him ahead of him in such classifications...

You wont find many who would argue against the likes of Gerrard, Essien and Xavi being worldclass... is he a better tackler than all 3 of them ? yes... does it make him better ?! so on...

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:48 am

aCe' wrote:"im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure..."

if only you would have quoted this bit which was 2 spaces away along with that...

OK, I will do as you wish. I'll quote that one. Beckhams crossing and free kicks. Lets see now. Beckham is constantly reminded in international matches as the one who scored the freekick against greece. The goal that got us through. Our best freekick taker. It took him about nine attempts to get one on target. He eventually scored the one he did get on target. Is he our best free kick taker, or the only english one who has a more than 50% accuracy? That cant be right, im pretty sure Gerrard has a good all round record, but then again, Gerrard has a good all round game. He can pass, tackle, score from long range, short range, from free kicks, from penalties. But Beckham can pass a ball and take free kicks. Generally do what Gerrard does, but does less and is renowned for it.

Is Beckham world class? no, he does the basics well, and is good in other areas, as a school teacher would say on parents evening, "could do better", but hell, he does well off the pitch.

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:00 am

Kharhaz wrote:
aCe' wrote:"im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure..."

if only you would have quoted this bit which was 2 spaces away along with that...

OK, I will do as you wish. I'll quote that one. Beckhams crossing and free kicks. Lets see now. Beckham is constantly reminded in international matches as the one who scored the freekick against greece. The goal that got us through. Our best freekick taker. It took him about nine attempts to get one on target. He eventually scored the one he did get on target. Is he our best free kick taker, or the only english one who has a more than 50% accuracy? That cant be right, im pretty sure Gerrard has a good all round record, but then again, Gerrard has a good all round game. He can pass, tackle, score from long range, short range, from free kicks, from penalties. But Beckham can pass a ball and take free kicks. Generally do what Gerrard does, but does less and is renowned for it.

Is Beckham world class? no, he does the basics well, and is good in other areas, as a school teacher would say on parents evening, "could do better", but hell, he does well off the pitch.

you lost me...
haha.. think you need to put them both together to get my point...

I dont think Beckham is worldclass... i think hes the 2nd best setpiece taker in the world (Juninho is in a class of his own)... one of the best passers of a ball if not the best, deffo the best crosser of a ball imo.... but still doesnt mean hes a worldclass midfielder... all the other aspects of his game as you say are average... there plenty of room for improvement there....

Its pretty much the same with Mascherano...
pretty much the same with Alonso...

Not the same with Gerrard, Essien, Xavi, Iniesta...etc etc who are imo world class midfielders...

anyways.... this is a pointless discussion and i dont see wheere this whole thing is going...

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:07 am

aCe' wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
aCe' wrote:"im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure..."

if only you would have quoted this bit which was 2 spaces away along with that...

OK, I will do as you wish. I'll quote that one. Beckhams crossing and free kicks. Lets see now. Beckham is constantly reminded in international matches as the one who scored the freekick against greece. The goal that got us through. Our best freekick taker. It took him about nine attempts to get one on target. He eventually scored the one he did get on target. Is he our best free kick taker, or the only english one who has a more than 50% accuracy? That cant be right, im pretty sure Gerrard has a good all round record, but then again, Gerrard has a good all round game. He can pass, tackle, score from long range, short range, from free kicks, from penalties. But Beckham can pass a ball and take free kicks. Generally do what Gerrard does, but does less and is renowned for it.

Is Beckham world class? no, he does the basics well, and is good in other areas, as a school teacher would say on parents evening, "could do better", but hell, he does well off the pitch.

you lost me...
haha.. think you need to put them both together to get my point...

I dont think Beckham is worldclass... i think hes the 2nd best setpiece taker in the world (Juninho is in a class of his own)... one of the best passers of a ball if not the best, deffo the best crosser of a ball imo.... but still doesnt mean hes a worldclass midfielder... all the other aspects of his game as you say are average... there plenty of room for improvement there....

Its pretty much the same with Mascherano...
pretty much the same with Alonso...

Not the same with Gerrard, Essien, Xavi, Iniesta...etc etc who are imo world class midfielders...

anyways.... this is a pointless discussion and i dont see wheere this whole thing is going...

Of course I lost you. I lost you when I quoted your piece:

"im not sure... Beckham's crossing and free kicks and passing are second to none.. does that make him world class ? again, not sure..."

If hes second to none then yes, that would make him the best. I pointed out he is not the best.

If a person is second to none, then he must be the best in that field, unless your heading downwards in which case an argument can go on forever.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:14 am

I'm not sure who I agree with here because the conversation is meandering around before eventually disappearing up someones ersehole no doubt. Those who think Masherano is a top holding midfielder, I agree with you. Best in the World? Well I don't know really because I don't watch footbal from around the World. Best in the Premiership though? Yes I think so marginally from Essien.

I actually think if we sell Xabi Mash might end up looking better. In many ways, because Xabi still likes to sit deeper than would be ideal, there are aspects of Masherano's game which don't really come into play. I actually think he would be at his most noticeable and spectacular if he was playing with a central midfield partner who bombed on and left him to it. Then, and only then would you see him at his very best.

by **aCe'** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:16 am

if hes second to none in tackling that means hes the best in tackling.. i didnt say "when it comes to being a midfielder hes second to none" ...
when it comes to certain attributes to his game, Mascherano is one of the best if not THE best in the world atm...

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