Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Nothing happens at Liverpool
Lots of players are linked with Liverpool, but so far no one has been signed. Rafeal Benitez chases the big names, but so far no new arrivals at Anfield.

Fernando Torres, Samuel Eto'o, Darren Bent and Carlos Tevez are all names mentioned as possible targets for Benitez, but none of them fancies a move to Liverpool.

Torres - Very likely to join.

Eto'o - Has no interest in leaving Barca for anyone, let alone LFC

Bent - Wouldn't want him anyway.

Tevez - Too much behind the scenes baggage.

Shall we not forget our big name buys Morientes--flop, Cisse flop, Diouf--flop, so why do we need a big name player, Rafa has proven that he very capable of turning average young players into world class stars.

[Bad Bob]

I would like to clarify one thing, I don't want us to sign Leroy Lita or Kevin Doyle, alls I said is they were capable to score goals at a lesser team like Reading, so maybe they would of been worth a punt.

But you have to remember that most teams put 10 men behind the ball against us and play for a point.  As such, players like Doyle, Lita and even the likes of Bent can't expect the same amount of space to work in.  If teams don't push up and look to attack against us it's hard to play through balls/balls over the top for these pace merchants to run onto.  Add to that the pressure of playing and performing for a big club and I think lads like this would be in well over their heads.

What we need are attackers with great skill and creativity on the ball, who can break down resolute defenses.  There are very few strikers plying their trade at the small clubs of the league that I think have this kind of skill.

Completely understand what you're saying but what's the point of a creative striker if there's nobody there to give it to. I mean lets be honest Xabi and Javier aren't gonna bust a gut to get into the box are they and there's no point putting a through ball through for Crouch because he hasn't the pace.

No, Alonso or Mascherano aren't likely to get into the box but Gerrard sure is.  Kewell would as well (if fit) and perhaps Pennant if we can train him to cut infield when the ball's on the opposite flank.

In addition, you've got 'Creative Striker X's' strike partner.  The idea is that he gives the ball to his partner with an eye for the quick 1-2.  Perhaps he pings it into Crouch/Kuyt and breaks in behind for the return pass.  Perhaps he dummies and shifts the ball to the opposite foot, freezing the defender and allowing his partner to steal into the space behind for the reverse ball.  Or, maybe Creative Player X isn't carrying the ball but is instead making clever little runs to be available for a telling pass or to drag a defender out of a congested area.

This is all to say that, in close quarters against packed defenses (which we face all the time), pace merchants don't have a chance to play their game.  We saw this with Cisse and we saw this with Bellamy.  Hanging on the shoulder of the last defender isn't of much benefit when there's no room to operate in behind.  Instead, what you need are players like a Bergkamp or a Zola or a Dalglish--brilliant on the ball, with great vision and smart movement that can operate in the tightest space and who can create space for themselves and teammates.

My larger point is that I disagree with the notion that a good striker in a mediocre side will necessarily become a great striker in a good side.  There are lots of lads in the league who score goals for fun because they have the pace to get in behind opponents on the counter attack.  Very few of these lads, though, have the guile to create chances when the opponents do nothing more than sit back and look to smother the game rather than come out and attack.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I would like to clarify one thing, I don't want us to sign Leroy Lita or Kevin Doyle, alls I said is they were capable to score goals at a lesser team like Reading, so maybe they would of been worth a punt.

But you have to remember that most teams put 10 men behind the ball against us and play for a point.  As such, players like Doyle, Lita and even the likes of Bent can't expect the same amount of space to work in.  If teams don't push up and look to attack against us it's hard to play through balls/balls over the top for these pace merchants to run onto.  Add to that the pressure of playing and performing for a big club and I think lads like this would be in well over their heads.

What we need are attackers with great skill and creativity on the ball, who can break down resolute defenses.  There are very few strikers plying their trade at the small clubs of the league that I think have this kind of skill.

Completely understand what you're saying but what's the point of a creative striker if there's nobody there to give it to. I mean lets be honest Xabi and Javier aren't gonna bust a gut to get into the box are they and there's no point putting a through ball through for Crouch because he hasn't the pace.

No, Alonso or Mascherano aren't likely to get into the box but Gerrard sure is.  Kewell would as well (if fit) and perhaps Pennant if we can train him to cut infield when the ball's on the opposite flank.

In addition, you've got 'Creative Striker X's' strike partner.  The idea is that he gives the ball to his partner with an eye for the quick 1-2.  Perhaps he pings it into Crouch/Kuyt and breaks in behind for the return pass.  Perhaps he dummies and shifts the ball to the opposite foot, freezing the defender and allowing his partner to steal into the space behind for the reverse ball.  Or, maybe Creative Player X isn't carrying the ball but is instead making clever little runs to be available for a telling pass or to drag a defender out of a congested area.

This is all to say that, in close quarters against packed defenses (which we face all the time), pace merchants don't have a chance to play their game.  We saw this with Cisse and we saw this with Bellamy.  Hanging on the shoulder of the last defender isn't of much benefit when there's no room to operate in behind.  Instead, what you need are players like a Bergkamp or a Zola or a Dalglish--brilliant on the ball, with great vision and smart movement that can operate in the tightest space and who can create space for themselves and teammates.

My larger point is that I disagree with the notion that a good striker in a mediocre side will necessarily become a great striker in a good side.  There are lots of lads in the league who score goals for fun because they have the pace to get in behind opponents on the counter attack.  Very few of these lads, though, have the guile to create chances when the opponents do nothing more than sit back and look to smother the game rather than come out and attack.

fair point, but the chances we create, a natural finished would of burried them, so i don't think its a creative player we need, it's a natural finished, Craig Linfield is the answer, hopefully.

[Bad Bob]

Nothing happens at Liverpool
Lots of players are linked with Liverpool, but so far no one has been signed. Rafeal Benitez chases the big names, but so far no new arrivals at Anfield.

Fernando Torres, Samuel Eto'o, Darren Bent and Carlos Tevez are all names mentioned as possible targets for Benitez, but none of them fancies a move to Liverpool.

Torres - Very likely to join.

Eto'o - Has no interest in leaving Barca for anyone, let alone LFC

Bent - Wouldn't want him anyway.

Tevez - Too much behind the scenes baggage.

Shall we not forget our big name buys Morientes--flop, Cisse flop, Diouf--flop, so why do we need a big name player, Rafa has proven that he very capable of turning average young players into world class stars.

Sorry to sound all Stu here but what player has gone from "average" to "world class" under Rafa?

His best signings already had talent and bags of potential, even if they were not yet household names on the world stage.  Having said that, Madrid wanted to sign Alonso but we got to him first and both Reina and Garcia had played for Barcelona.  Average players don't attract that kind of interest.  Even a "flop" like Morientes has evident class...he just failed to adapt to the English game and is now back in Spain reminding the world that he's still a talented player.

On the other side of the coin there are players who are not of the required standard to play for us...no matter how much work Rafa puts into them.  He saw that with Diouf straight away and shipped him out to Bolton within a month of taking over.  He had little choice but to give Cisse a shot but clearly didn't think he was up to it either.  Traore, Biscan, Nunez, Cheyrou, Diao, Mellor, Josemi, etc. were all average players who Rafa has moved to get rid of as soon as possible.  He knows full well the old adage 'you can put lipstick on a pig but...' 

[Bad Bob]

I would like to clarify one thing, I don't want us to sign Leroy Lita or Kevin Doyle, alls I said is they were capable to score goals at a lesser team like Reading, so maybe they would of been worth a punt.

But you have to remember that most teams put 10 men behind the ball against us and play for a point.  As such, players like Doyle, Lita and even the likes of Bent can't expect the same amount of space to work in.  If teams don't push up and look to attack against us it's hard to play through balls/balls over the top for these pace merchants to run onto.  Add to that the pressure of playing and performing for a big club and I think lads like this would be in well over their heads.

What we need are attackers with great skill and creativity on the ball, who can break down resolute defenses.  There are very few strikers plying their trade at the small clubs of the league that I think have this kind of skill.

Completely understand what you're saying but what's the point of a creative striker if there's nobody there to give it to. I mean lets be honest Xabi and Javier aren't gonna bust a gut to get into the box are they and there's no point putting a through ball through for Crouch because he hasn't the pace.

No, Alonso or Mascherano aren't likely to get into the box but Gerrard sure is.  Kewell would as well (if fit) and perhaps Pennant if we can train him to cut infield when the ball's on the opposite flank.

In addition, you've got 'Creative Striker X's' strike partner.  The idea is that he gives the ball to his partner with an eye for the quick 1-2.  Perhaps he pings it into Crouch/Kuyt and breaks in behind for the return pass.  Perhaps he dummies and shifts the ball to the opposite foot, freezing the defender and allowing his partner to steal into the space behind for the reverse ball.  Or, maybe Creative Player X isn't carrying the ball but is instead making clever little runs to be available for a telling pass or to drag a defender out of a congested area.

This is all to say that, in close quarters against packed defenses (which we face all the time), pace merchants don't have a chance to play their game.  We saw this with Cisse and we saw this with Bellamy.  Hanging on the shoulder of the last defender isn't of much benefit when there's no room to operate in behind.  Instead, what you need are players like a Bergkamp or a Zola or a Dalglish--brilliant on the ball, with great vision and smart movement that can operate in the tightest space and who can create space for themselves and teammates.

My larger point is that I disagree with the notion that a good striker in a mediocre side will necessarily become a great striker in a good side.  There are lots of lads in the league who score goals for fun because they have the pace to get in behind opponents on the counter attack.  Very few of these lads, though, have the guile to create chances when the opponents do nothing more than sit back and look to smother the game rather than come out and attack.

fair point, but the chances we create, a natural finished would of burried them, so i don't think its a creative player we need, it's a natural finished, Craig Linfield is the answer, hopefully.

In truth we need both (hence my interest in us signing Owen as well as Torres).  But a natural finisher offers little if the supply isn't there so we need to be sure that we have the creativity in other areas of the team to put dangerous balls into the box.

I would love Linfield to be a great player for us as well but I'm not sure he's ready just yet.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Rafa made Alonso into a world star, he may have had potential but it takes a good coach to bring that out. Reina was the same, he didn't really make it at Barca and despite playing well for Villeriall or however you spell it, Rafa has still brought the best out of him. Danny Agger is another, even though he was in the Danish national side when we bought him, Rafa has turned him into the best centre half in europe, along with Carra

[Bad Bob]

Rafa made Alonso into a world star, he may have had potential but it takes a good coach to bring that out. Reina was the same, he didn't really make it at Barca and despite playing well for Villeriall or however you spell it, Rafa has still brought the best out of him. Danny Agger is another, even though he was in the Danish national side when we bought him, Rafa has turned him into the best centre half in europe, along with Carra

My point is none of these players were "average" unless you and I have a very different definition of average.  For me, an average player does a decent job for the likes of Boro, Bolton or Blackburn.  Rochemback is average.  Campo is average.  Tugay is average.

As for Agger...I rate the lad as well but, seriously, the best centre half in Europe? 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Agger is clearly the best centre half in europe along side Carra, sorry if my loyalty to Liverpool seems to overshadow my judgement, but who needs John Terry or Fabio Cannavaro when you have Jack Hobbs and Godwin Antwi

[scouser 'til I die]

haha stu's twitching right now behind his pc screen just wanting to absolutely burst out at god_bless_john_houlding for his comments there. i can just see him now No offence gbjh but i agree with bad bob, I very much doubt that alonso or reina were categorized as "average". And one last point, i feel that managers don't develop talents like alonso with  his classic range of passing and distribution on the field - but it is the player who has the talent inside of him that shows his talent off in a recognized way on the world stage.

Basically what im saying is that alonso always had his talent, its just moving to a globally known team like liverpool helped his talent become well known throughout europe.

[Mick-o dywer]

to be fair i was trying to think who has rafa made world class since he has arrived.....id have to say carra has become one of the top 4 centre halves in the world , alot of it  is carra's own drive but surely rafa must take credit.... alonso , im not too sure , he always had the ability even at R.S..... Luis Garcia has improved greatly under rafa as has pennant crouch and gerrard, so i dont buy the idea that he doesnt bring on players...............

Benitez won a champions league with about 8 donkeys for god sake!!

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Rafa was able to win a champions league with Djimi Traore--that proves he can get players to play at a proper level.

Also maybe Alonso and Reina weren't average in Spain, but without the help of Rafa they wouldn't be household names the way they are now. Danny Agger best centre half in the world, if not now as many of you believe, he will be within the next three years. If I was Tom and George I'd get Dan Agger signed up on a new contract which keeps at him at the club until 2012.

[HOMER]

alonso is not world class - yet

to me world class is a player in the top 3 for his position worldwide

we have 2 players in centre midfield at liverpool that are better that alonso

let alone fabregas, scholes, makalele and many spanish and italian league players

he's a good player but world class?

[LittleHobo]

Rafa made Alonso into a world star, he may have had potential but it takes a good coach to bring that out. Reina was the same, he didn't really make it at Barca and despite playing well for Villeriall or however you spell it, Rafa has still brought the best out of him. Danny Agger is another, even though he was in the Danish national side when we bought him, Rafa has turned him into the best centre half in europe, along with Carra

disagree

i dont think alonso has progressed since he arrived

if anything hes worse now than when he arrived

[Mick-o dywer]

Alonso is world class and since he has arrived at the club he has managed to cement his place in the Spanish Squad.....Regular with Liverpool .....worldwide praise.......plenty of cracking goals .......coveted by barca and real .......( i know real wanted him  b4) ........mate he had a bad season by his own very high standards........ but to say he had dis-improved.......well i hope everyone is keeping well on Mars

[LittleHobo]

only opinion

but i think he hasnt progressed since he arrived.

sorry if that offends ya