Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:00 pm

redsince2001 wrote:rafa'a treatment robbie keane is just getting ridiculous ...........shoot the guy fairly

by **Owzat** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:15 pm

fivecups wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Kuyt needs rested big time. He had the Euros then the olympics. Hasn't had a rest at all and just looks burnt out.

Completely agree. His form has dipped badly in the last few months. I've been quite a strong Kuyt supporter over the past year, wondering why so many of our supporters dont 'get him'. I thought he was finally coming good at the start of the season. Looks like I was wrong, that was just a blip and he's reverted to type.

Definitely looks like he needs a break.

Don't think it's fatigue, as someone else pointed out we've been playing once a week for the large part of January (if not all January)

I think he, and other players, are suffering from playing 4-4-2 one week, 4-5-1 the next and some being played one position one week, another the next. While he may have missed a late chance to win, how many others even had shots on goal? I thought from the one replay I saw that the ball got stuck under his feet, I'd like to see another replay and a couple of angles before making that an excuse for him.

We should have won this, sad thing is the ref took into account it was a derby and the fouling bluesh1te made most of his leniency. And Carra was right on their timewasting, they'd take a draw each and every time against us to screw our season up instead of to make something of their's - understandable I suppose given their seasons amount to little more than a farcical DVD at the end of it - "the magnificent seventh" etc

Poor defending from set-piece again cost us. Alonso (?) didn't make a challenge on Cahill, but surely their biggest threat (Cahill) deserves man marking? That said, two players were dicing with offside and one was Lescott, if the defenders had stepped up a yard when the ball was not into the danger zone then they would have both been offside.

Good to see Stevie G silence their fans and their taunting, maybe if they'd learn to shut it then he wouldn't be shutting them up with his goals. Poor result, decent performance outside the last third. How bad is it to draw twice when the opposition barely pose much of an attacking threat? And so much for concentrating on the league, I reckon our second XI could have equalled or bettered two draws

by **GYBS** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:16 pm

Judge wrote:
GYBS wrote:keane has had plenty of shots and missed lenty of them .

have you gone for a pee gybs

by **Dundalk** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:35 pm

The FA Cup fourth round replay between Everton and Liverpool will take place on Wednesday, February 4, with kick-off at 8.10pm GMT.

The match will be shown live on ITV.

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:33 pm

Is it really so hard to mark Cahill?
Didnt we all know that he was the danger man from set pieces?
Didnt we learn that from last monday?
Absolutely shocking that we draw again against the likes of them
They are :censored:

But we cant beat them
What does that make us?

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:49 pm

Sir Roger wrote:mark Cahill

is that Tims brother?

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:58 pm

Judge wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:mark Cahill

is that Tims brother?

Yes
His twin
:;):

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:57 pm

Frustrating game...bad result too.

4-5-1 ? Bollox. Torres was wiped out of the game by a good Everton defence. Our midfield cannot play in a one up front formation. They can't attack in the force needed to support a single striker. Most of the time there was one or no targets in the box for a red shirt to aim for. Not good enough if you looking for goals. 4-5-1 is grand if you go out not to lose, but it leaves a lot to be desired if you want a win.

Sure, Liverpool played a 4-4-2 last week against the same team and still came away with a draw, but at least they got the first goal and were winning they until Rafa fecked it up with the subs.

I don't think Liverpool can use a 4-5-1 formation and expect to get the win after win they need. I'm not saying it's a bad formation per se, but it is bad for Liverpool and will always make goals a rare occasion.

Zonal marking? Bollox. A dog with no eyes can see that that isn't the thing to do for set pieces. "Pick up your man" was the order of the day when I was younger and I simply cannot see why anyone would think that marking a zone would make more sense than marking a man. Seven red shirts in the box yesterday and no-one could see Cahil making a move?

Ryan Babel? Bollox. Rafa, he's not a left midfielder. He's a forward. Why can't you understand this? He doesn't have a wingers mentality. He doesn't have a wingers skill. He shouldn't play on the wing...especially over Riera...who IS a winger. If all you can do with this guy is play him in a position he's patently unsuited for, then please sell him and buy a real LM. At least that way, when you sub Riera at 60 minutes you'll be replacing like for like.

Dirk kuyt? Bollox. Gave his usual performance. Below average, Billy passback. He encapsualtes Rafa's approach to the game...huff'n'puff but little product. I only hope the only reason he stays on the pitch game in-game out is because Liverpool has no-one else to replace him with. But I suspect that even if we did have a good right sided player, Rafa would still play Kuyt. I have pretty much run out of patience with Dirk Kuyt, but have to accept the fact that he will always have a place in the Liverpool starting 11.

Everything Liverpool did was straight down the middle, it was like watching them from last year. Everton's defence were busy, but looked very comfortable in doing so. Our side attacks were extremely weak if not non-existant and there were only really two players that Everton had to watch, Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, the latter of which had a pretty annonomous game (but for a great bit of skill to see Gerrard through for the goal).

I won't even comment on the Robbie Keane situation.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world and we get another shot at the blues in a forthnight.

Roll on Wigan...

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:02 pm

tonyeh wrote:Frustrating game...bad result too.

4-5-1 ? Bollox. Torres was wiped out of the game by a good Everton defence. Our midfield cannot play in a one up front formation. They can't attack in the force needed to support a single striker. Most of the time there was one or no targets in the box for a red shirt to aim for. Not good enough if you looking for goals. 4-5-1 is grand if you go out not to lose, but it leaves a lot to be desired if you want a win.

Sure, Liverpool played a 4-4-2 last week against the same team and still came away with a draw, but at least they got the first goal and were winning they until Rafa fecked it up with the subs.

I don't think Liverpool can use a 4-5-1 formation and expect to get the win after win they need. I'm not saying it's a bad formation per se, but it is bad for Liverpool and will always make goals a rare occasion.

Zonal marking? Bollox. A dog with no eyes can see that that isn't the thing to do for set pieces. "Pick up your man" was the order of the day when I was younger and I simply cannot see why anyone would think that marking a zone would make more sense than marking a man. Seven red shirts in the box yesterday and no-one could see Cahil making a move?

Ryan Babel? Bollox. Rafa, he's not a left midfielder. He's a forward. Why can't you understand this? He doesn't have a wingers mentality. He doesn't have a wingers skill. He shouldn't play on the wing...especially over Riera...who IS a winger. If all you can do with this guy is play him in a position he's patently unsuited for, then please sell him and buy a real LM. At least that way, when you sub Riera at 60 minutes you'll be replacing like for like.

Dirk kuyt? Bollox. Gave his usual performance. Below average, Billy passback. He encapsualtes Rafa's approach to the game...huff'n'puff but little product. I only hope the only reason he stays on the pitch game in-game out is because Liverpool has no-one else to replace him with. But I suspect that even if we did have a good right sided player, Rafa would still play Kuyt. I have pretty much run out of patience with Dirk Kuyt, but have to accept the fact that he will always have a place in the Liverpool starting 11.

Everything Liverpool did was straight down the middle, it was like watching them from last year. Everton's defence were busy, but looked very comfortable in doing so. Our side attacks were extremely weak if not non-existant and there were only really two players that Everton had to watch, Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, the latter of which had a pretty annonomous game (but for a great bit of skill to see Gerrard through for the goal).

I won't even comment on the Robbie Keane situation.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world and we get another shot at the blues in a forthnight.

Roll on Wigan...

Lot of bollox in that post, mate.

by **Madmax** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:26 pm

tonyeh wrote:Frustrating game...bad result too.

4-5-1 ? Bollox. Torres was wiped out of the game by a good Everton defence. Our midfield cannot play in a one up front formation. They can't attack in the force needed to support a single striker. Most of the time there was one or no targets in the box for a red shirt to aim for. Not good enough if you looking for goals. 4-5-1 is grand if you go out not to lose, but it leaves a lot to be desired if you want a win.

Sure, Liverpool played a 4-4-2 last week against the same team and still came away with a draw, but at least they got the first goal and were winning they until Rafa fecked it up with the subs.

I don't think Liverpool can use a 4-5-1 formation and expect to get the win after win they need. I'm not saying it's a bad formation per se, but it is bad for Liverpool and will always make goals a rare occasion.

Zonal marking? Bollox. A dog with no eyes can see that that isn't the thing to do for set pieces. "Pick up your man" was the order of the day when I was younger and I simply cannot see why anyone would think that marking a zone would make more sense than marking a man. Seven red shirts in the box yesterday and no-one could see Cahil making a move?

Ryan Babel? Bollox. Rafa, he's not a left midfielder. He's a forward. Why can't you understand this? He doesn't have a wingers mentality. He doesn't have a wingers skill. He shouldn't play on the wing...especially over Riera...who IS a winger. If all you can do with this guy is play him in a position he's patently unsuited for, then please sell him and buy a real LM. At least that way, when you sub Riera at 60 minutes you'll be replacing like for like.

Dirk kuyt? Bollox. Gave his usual performance. Below average, Billy passback. He encapsualtes Rafa's approach to the game...huff'n'puff but little product. I only hope the only reason he stays on the pitch game in-game out is because Liverpool has no-one else to replace him with. But I suspect that even if we did have a good right sided player, Rafa would still play Kuyt. I have pretty much run out of patience with Dirk Kuyt, but have to accept the fact that he will always have a place in the Liverpool starting 11.

Everything Liverpool did was straight down the middle, it was like watching them from last year. Everton's defence were busy, but looked very comfortable in doing so. Our side attacks were extremely weak if not non-existant and there were only really two players that Everton had to watch, Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, the latter of which had a pretty annonomous game (but for a great bit of skill to see Gerrard through for the goal).

I won't even comment on the Robbie Keane situation.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world and we get another shot at the blues in a forthnight.

Roll on Wigan...

Just would like to point out mate the 4-5-1 formation did work for us last season when torres and gerrard were playing absolutely brill footbal and so was the rest of the team. This happened toward the 2nd half of the season.

We played much better in the 2nd match against the bitter than the first. We had complete control of the game in the 2nd half but just lacked the cutting edge up front. 2nd game for me reminded me little of our match against stoke. Almost complete controle yet no magic.

I agree with you about man marking. I jsut dont understand the view of adopting zonal marking.

With rafa mate he plays alot of our players out of position so ryan babel playing left mid is typical of rafas tactics. Babel is a striker but i have to say i really dont know if he will do us justice up front. The guy is a dumba$$.. No football brain at all. Not a technically gifted player IMO.

AS for dirk i dont understand myself why his given so many games. But i think rafa prefer him over benny and others is because kuyt does a better job then them. Also to be honest we are stuck with kuyt right mid for now. Guy needs a rest to be honest.

I have to admit we had soo many attacks yet no flair up front. We were poor in the final third yesterday. Atleast i would have liked to see some shots from far range or out of the box but still nothing was put to trial.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:14 am

4-5-1 worked for a few games last season...that's all and that's only because Gerrard and Torres were firing on all cylinders. Also, I think Torres caught a lot of teams by surprise last season.

It's no reason at all to believe that it'll work in general this year.

But it's clear that it leaves us struggling for goals every time it's used, because the mid section aren't able to support it. They don't move up with the ball, therefore there's nobody in the box, except the lone striker who's usually marginalised out of the game. So far this year, we've seen it with Keane, Kuyt AND Torres.

I don't care if Rafa wants to play 4-5-1, but for fecks sake, it has to be instilled in the mid section to attack, otherwise they're p!ssing against the wind.

I'm not saying 4-4-2 will offer garrunteed results, but at the very least it will force the oppositions defence to split their attention and make it possible for one of the strikers to make a break.

As for Babel, I'd never play him as a LM, because he clearly isn't one. On top of everything else he lacks in that position, he's a right footer, which means he's absolutely destined to turn inside. In fact, I would have tried him out up top with Torres in a 4-4-2 and played Riera in his natural position, even it was only for the last 30 minutes when we should have gone for the throat.

We may have played better (if only in the 2nd half) than we did in the last Everton game, but as I said, on Sunday Liverpool were chasing the game. I'd rather see Liverpool play like they did midweek and win, than play like they did on Sunday and still come away with a draw.

Regarding Kuyt, I don't believe he does do a better job than Benny, he has just had more games. I consider both of them as nothing players to be honest and would be more than happy to see them both gone and the funds used to buy a proper RM player. Kuyt has absolutely no product. He reminds me of a hamster running in a wheel. Lots of energy being used but utterly pointless and useless.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:26 am

..........

by **tonyeh** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:27 am

Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:Frustrating game...bad result too.

4-5-1 ? Bollox. Torres was wiped out of the game by a good Everton defence. Our midfield cannot play in a one up front formation. They can't attack in the force needed to support a single striker. Most of the time there was one or no targets in the box for a red shirt to aim for. Not good enough if you looking for goals. 4-5-1 is grand if you go out not to lose, but it leaves a lot to be desired if you want a win.

Sure, Liverpool played a 4-4-2 last week against the same team and still came away with a draw, but at least they got the first goal and were winning they until Rafa fecked it up with the subs.

I don't think Liverpool can use a 4-5-1 formation and expect to get the win after win they need. I'm not saying it's a bad formation per se, but it is bad for Liverpool and will always make goals a rare occasion.

Zonal marking? Bollox. A dog with no eyes can see that that isn't the thing to do for set pieces. "Pick up your man" was the order of the day when I was younger and I simply cannot see why anyone would think that marking a zone would make more sense than marking a man. Seven red shirts in the box yesterday and no-one could see Cahil making a move?

Ryan Babel? Bollox. Rafa, he's not a left midfielder. He's a forward. Why can't you understand this? He doesn't have a wingers mentality. He doesn't have a wingers skill. He shouldn't play on the wing...especially over Riera...who IS a winger. If all you can do with this guy is play him in a position he's patently unsuited for, then please sell him and buy a real LM. At least that way, when you sub Riera at 60 minutes you'll be replacing like for like.

Dirk kuyt? Bollox. Gave his usual performance. Below average, Billy passback. He encapsualtes Rafa's approach to the game...huff'n'puff but little product. I only hope the only reason he stays on the pitch game in-game out is because Liverpool has no-one else to replace him with. But I suspect that even if we did have a good right sided player, Rafa would still play Kuyt. I have pretty much run out of patience with Dirk Kuyt, but have to accept the fact that he will always have a place in the Liverpool starting 11.

Everything Liverpool did was straight down the middle, it was like watching them from last year. Everton's defence were busy, but looked very comfortable in doing so. Our side attacks were extremely weak if not non-existant and there were only really two players that Everton had to watch, Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, the latter of which had a pretty annonomous game (but for a great bit of skill to see Gerrard through for the goal).

I won't even comment on the Robbie Keane situation.

Anyway, it's not the end of the world and we get another shot at the blues in a forthnight.

Roll on Wigan...

Lot of bollox in that post, mate.

Lot of bollox on the pitch last Sunday too Bob.

lets hope for something different Wednesday.

by **bigmick** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:07 am

tonyeh wrote:I won't even comment on the Robbie Keane situation.

Neither will I except to say it's a load of old bollox.

by **Madmax** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:35 am

tonyeh wrote:4-5-1 worked for a few games last season...that's all and that's only because Gerrard and Torres were firing on all cylinders. Also, I think Torres caught a lot of teams by surprise last season.

It's no reason at all to believe that it'll work in general this year.

But it's clear that it leaves us struggling for goals every time it's used, because the mid section aren't able to support it. They don't move up with the ball, therefore there's nobody in the box, except the lone striker who's usually marginalised out of the game. So far this year, we've seen it with Keane, Kuyt AND Torres.

I don't care if Rafa wants to play 4-5-1, but for fecks sake, it has to be instilled in the mid section to attack, otherwise they're p!ssing against the wind.

I'm not saying 4-4-2 will offer garrunteed results, but at the very least it will force the oppositions defence to split their attention and make it possible for one of the strikers to make a break.

As for Babel, I'd never play him as a LM, because he clearly isn't one. On top of everything else he lacks in that position, he's a right footer, which means he's absolutely destined to turn inside. In fact, I would have tried him out up top with Torres in a 4-4-2 and played Riera in his natural position, even it was only for the last 30 minutes when we should have gone for the throat.

We may have played better (if only in the 2nd half) than we did in the last Everton game, but as I said, on Sunday Liverpool were chasing the game. I'd rather see Liverpool play like they did midweek and win, than play like they did on Sunday and still come away with a draw.

Regarding Kuyt, I don't believe he does do a better job than Benny, he has just had more games. I consider both of them as nothing players to be honest and would be more than happy to see them both gone and the funds used to buy a proper RM player. Kuyt has absolutely no product. He reminds me of a hamster running in a wheel. Lots of energy being used but utterly pointless and useless.

The problem that we could have with the 4-5-1 as you have emphasized is the mid section. We only have gerrard supporting torres whoes actually almost playing a striker role. In that formation i think you need your wide players to be attacking and a mid section player to support gerrards runs. Riera on the left is good but our achilles heel the right pos is the problem. Not a genuine player to contribute with an attack.
Mid section problem we have is with alonso and macha, they tend to play to deep.
If we could adopt a formation that would leave one player as a defensive mid and 4 attacking mids supporting torres, i think would be more effective.
Its a formation legbarnes posted on one of the threads.
Would go something like this

Riena
Arba carra skrtel/agger Dossena/aurelli

Mascha

kuty/benny Alonso gerrard Riera/babel?

Torres

4-4-2 is a good formation but i still am not convinced that we are good at it. This season we have not played particularly well. Only way around that formation is if we find a prolific striker that could work well with torres and a class right mid player.

Also going back on dirky boy i think at the moment his the best option we have got at right mid. You said benny is in the same boat as him. I would agree but considering our options i think i would take kuyt over benny.
Until we sort out our right mid were stuck with kuyt..

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