Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Firstly, once again thank God for Steven Gerrard. For all our options, possibilities, styling, details, rebuilding, controlling the game, zonal marking and all that stuff, the fact that we have Gerrard in our team makes such a huge difference. What a footballer.

He's quite simply the most complete player in world football. Five years into Rafa's rain and it's disappointing that we're still so reliant on him to drag us out of the mire all the time. Talk about Roy of the Rovers.

[bigmick]

And despite spending an absolute sh!tload of cash, where do people think we'd be in all seriousness if we didn't have Gerrard? I dread to even contemplate.

[Ciggy]

And despite spending an absolute sh!tload of cash, where do people think we'd be in all seriousness if we didn't have Gerrard? I dread to even contemplate.

6th 7th?

[bigmick]

I reckon we'd almost certainly struggle to get into the top four Lynds yes. Put Gerrard into Evertons team and I wouldn't fancy playing them every week, Aston Villa neither.

[stmichael]

And despite spending an absolute sh!tload of cash, where do people think we'd be in all seriousness if we didn't have Gerrard? I dread to even contemplate.

In the summer we absolutely have to buy another genuine class attacking player who can turn the deadly duo of Torres & Gerrard into a 'holy trinity'. Until we find that player and stop ar$ing with Gerrard's position then we will continue to stuggle to beat teams who defend deep and/or defend well.

[Ciggy]

I reckon we'd almost certainly struggle to get into the top four Lynds yes. Put Gerrard into Evertons team and I wouldn't fancy playing them every week, Aston Villa neither.

I dont think we really appreciate how good he is he is out of this world, absolutey fantastic what an amazing player.
This lad is feckin special.

[GYBS]

pretty much every team has a player that if you took out would drop a lt of places in the league -

Chelsea- Lampard
Mancs- Ronlado
Arsenal - fabregas
Villa - Agbonlahor

even abroad

Barce- Messi
AC - Kaka

etc etc

[Bad Bob]

4-5-1 worked for a few games last season...that's all and that's only because Gerrard and Torres were firing on all cylinders. Also, I think Torres caught a lot of teams by surprise last season.

It's no reason at all to believe that it'll work in general this year.

But it's clear that it leaves us struggling for goals every time it's used, because the mid section aren't able to support it. They don't move up with the ball, therefore there's nobody in the box, except the lone striker who's usually marginalised out of the game. So far this year, we've seen it with Keane, Kuyt AND Torres.

I don't care if Rafa wants to play 4-5-1, but for fecks sake, it has to be instilled in the mid section to attack, otherwise they're p!ssing against the wind.

I'm not saying 4-4-2 will offer garrunteed results, but at the very least it will force the oppositions defence to split their attention and make it possible for one of the strikers to make a break.

As for Babel, I'd never play him as a LM, because he clearly isn't one. On top of everything else he lacks in that position, he's a right footer, which means he's absolutely destined to turn inside. In fact, I would have tried him out up top with Torres in a 4-4-2 and played Riera in his natural position, even it was only for the last 30 minutes when we should have gone for the throat.

We may have played better (if only in the 2nd half) than we did in the last Everton game, but as I said, on Sunday Liverpool were chasing the game. I'd rather see Liverpool play like they did midweek and win, than play like they did on Sunday and still come away with a draw.

Regarding Kuyt, I don't believe he does do a better job than Benny, he has just had more games. I consider both of them as nothing players to be honest and would be more than happy to see them both gone and the funds used to buy a proper RM player. Kuyt has absolutely no product. He reminds me of a hamster running in a wheel. Lots of energy being used but utterly pointless and useless.

The problem that we could have with the 4-5-1 as you have emphasized is the mid section. We only have gerrard supporting torres whoes actually almost playing a striker role. In that formation i think you need your wide players to be attacking and a mid section player to support gerrards runs. Riera on the left is good but our achilles heel the right pos is the problem. Not a genuine player to contribute with an attack.
Mid section problem we have is with alonso and macha, they tend to play to deep.
If we could adopt a formation that would leave one player as a defensive mid and 4 attacking mids supporting torres, i think would be more effective.
Its a formation legbarnes posted on one of the threads.
Would go something like this

               Riena
Arba      carra  skrtel/agger    Dossena/aurelli

                 Mascha


kuty/benny  Alonso    gerrard   Riera/babel?

                 Torres

4-4-2 is a good formation but i still am not convinced that we are good at it. This season we have not played particularly well. Only way around that formation is if we find a prolific striker that could work well with torres and a class right mid player.

Also going back on dirky boy i think at the moment his the best option we have got at right mid. You said benny is in the same boat as him. I would agree but considering our options i think i would take kuyt over benny.
Until we sort out our right mid were stuck with kuyt..

I really don't think that the formation matters at all in these situations.  Our established problem, going back several seasons and very apparent this season, is breaking down teams that sit deep and look to get numbers behind the ball.  In these situations, most of our players end up being camped in the opponent's half so it's not like Torres is getting isolated up top or anything like that.  In most cases, we look like this:

           Carragher                            Skrtel
----------------------Centre Line-----------------------------

                  Alonso                Masch

Arbeloa                                                               Dossena

        Kuyt                      Gerrard                       Riera

                               Torres

               ---------------------------------------
                             Opponent's  Area



What we lack has nothing to do with the formation and everything to do with the type of player needed to break teams down.  We lack someone with the guile and creativity to work in congested spaces around the "D" and play the likes of Torres and Stevie and Riera in with nice little through balls.  We also lack fullbacks who can consistently get around the back of the opponents and put in dangerous balls into the box.  In short, we have a personnel problem, not a formation problem.

[Owzat]

And despite spending an absolute sh!tload of cash, where do people think we'd be in all seriousness if we didn't have Gerrard? I dread to even contemplate.

In the summer we absolutely have to buy another genuine class attacking player who can turn the deadly duo of Torres & Gerrard into a 'holy trinity'. Until we find that player and stop ar$ing with Gerrard's position then we will continue to stuggle to beat teams who defend deep and/or defend well.

Interestingly enough I looked at the impact of Gerrard's goals on the league this morning - we'd (in theory) be six points worse off in the league without his goals. Obviously there's more to him than that, but assume his replacement might score goals


re formations. I'm of the growing belief we need to stick to one and stop chopping and changing.

[Alex G.]

4-5-1 worked for a few games last season...that's all and that's only because Gerrard and Torres were firing on all cylinders. Also, I think Torres caught a lot of teams by surprise last season.

It's no reason at all to believe that it'll work in general this year.

But it's clear that it leaves us struggling for goals every time it's used, because the mid section aren't able to support it. They don't move up with the ball, therefore there's nobody in the box, except the lone striker who's usually marginalised out of the game. So far this year, we've seen it with Keane, Kuyt AND Torres.

I don't care if Rafa wants to play 4-5-1, but for fecks sake, it has to be instilled in the mid section to attack, otherwise they're p!ssing against the wind.

I'm not saying 4-4-2 will offer garrunteed results, but at the very least it will force the oppositions defence to split their attention and make it possible for one of the strikers to make a break.

As for Babel, I'd never play him as a LM, because he clearly isn't one. On top of everything else he lacks in that position, he's a right footer, which means he's absolutely destined to turn inside. In fact, I would have tried him out up top with Torres in a 4-4-2 and played Riera in his natural position, even it was only for the last 30 minutes when we should have gone for the throat.

We may have played better (if only in the 2nd half) than we did in the last Everton game, but as I said, on Sunday Liverpool were chasing the game. I'd rather see Liverpool play like they did midweek and win, than play like they did on Sunday and still come away with a draw.

Regarding Kuyt, I don't believe he does do a better job than Benny, he has just had more games. I consider both of them as nothing players to be honest and would be more than happy to see them both gone and the funds used to buy a proper RM player. Kuyt has absolutely no product. He reminds me of a hamster running in a wheel. Lots of energy being used but utterly pointless and useless.

The problem that we could have with the 4-5-1 as you have emphasized is the mid section. We only have gerrard supporting torres whoes actually almost playing a striker role. In that formation i think you need your wide players to be attacking and a mid section player to support gerrards runs. Riera on the left is good but our achilles heel the right pos is the problem. Not a genuine player to contribute with an attack.
Mid section problem we have is with alonso and macha, they tend to play to deep.
If we could adopt a formation that would leave one player as a defensive mid and 4 attacking mids supporting torres, i think would be more effective.
Its a formation legbarnes posted on one of the threads.
Would go something like this

               Riena
Arba      carra  skrtel/agger    Dossena/aurelli

                 Mascha


kuty/benny  Alonso    gerrard   Riera/babel?

                 Torres

4-4-2 is a good formation but i still am not convinced that we are good at it. This season we have not played particularly well. Only way around that formation is if we find a prolific striker that could work well with torres and a class right mid player.

Also going back on dirky boy i think at the moment his the best option we have got at right mid. You said benny is in the same boat as him. I would agree but considering our options i think i would take kuyt over benny.
Until we sort out our right mid were stuck with kuyt..

I really don't think that the formation matters at all in these situations.  Our established problem, going back several seasons and very apparent this season, is breaking down teams that sit deep and look to get numbers behind the ball.  In these situations, most of our players end up being camped in the opponent's half so it's not like Torres is getting isolated up top or anything like that.  In most cases, we look like this:

           Carragher                            Skrtel
----------------------Centre Line-----------------------------

                  Alonso                Masch

Arbeloa                                                               Dossena

        Kuyt                      Gerrard                       Riera

                               Torres

               ---------------------------------------
                             Opponent's  Area



What we lack has nothing to do with the formation and everything to do with the type of player needed to break teams down.  We lack someone with the guile and creativity to work in congested spaces around the "D" and play the likes of Torres and Stevie and Riera in with nice little through balls.  We also lack fullbacks who can consistently get around the back of the opponents and put in dangerous balls into the box.  In short, we have a personnel problem, not a formation problem.

Against deep defences, our forwards (mainly Torres) are stuck fixing the position between the central backs outside the box or receiving on the wing, he never help the midfield keeping the ball back to the goal (it allows to the midfield line and the fullbacks go ahead). Another problem is with our hold midfielders (Mascherano and Alonso), they never go forward, they have no mobility. Look at Anderson at United, he has mobility, it breaks the defences. If our hold midfielders are fixing their position that´s good for not conceding goals but it´s impossible to beat "ten men behind the ball".

We have no mobility, our forwards doesn´t help the midfield, and we played too direct. We have good enough players to beat Stoke, West Ham, Fulham and bitters ten times in a row. Our problem is not the lack of quality players.

[Madmax]

4-5-1 worked for a few games last season...that's all and that's only because Gerrard and Torres were firing on all cylinders. Also, I think Torres caught a lot of teams by surprise last season.

It's no reason at all to believe that it'll work in general this year.

But it's clear that it leaves us struggling for goals every time it's used, because the mid section aren't able to support it. They don't move up with the ball, therefore there's nobody in the box, except the lone striker who's usually marginalised out of the game. So far this year, we've seen it with Keane, Kuyt AND Torres.

I don't care if Rafa wants to play 4-5-1, but for fecks sake, it has to be instilled in the mid section to attack, otherwise they're p!ssing against the wind.

I'm not saying 4-4-2 will offer garrunteed results, but at the very least it will force the oppositions defence to split their attention and make it possible for one of the strikers to make a break.

As for Babel, I'd never play him as a LM, because he clearly isn't one. On top of everything else he lacks in that position, he's a right footer, which means he's absolutely destined to turn inside. In fact, I would have tried him out up top with Torres in a 4-4-2 and played Riera in his natural position, even it was only for the last 30 minutes when we should have gone for the throat.

We may have played better (if only in the 2nd half) than we did in the last Everton game, but as I said, on Sunday Liverpool were chasing the game. I'd rather see Liverpool play like they did midweek and win, than play like they did on Sunday and still come away with a draw.

Regarding Kuyt, I don't believe he does do a better job than Benny, he has just had more games. I consider both of them as nothing players to be honest and would be more than happy to see them both gone and the funds used to buy a proper RM player. Kuyt has absolutely no product. He reminds me of a hamster running in a wheel. Lots of energy being used but utterly pointless and useless.

The problem that we could have with the 4-5-1 as you have emphasized is the mid section. We only have gerrard supporting torres whoes actually almost playing a striker role. In that formation i think you need your wide players to be attacking and a mid section player to support gerrards runs. Riera on the left is good but our achilles heel the right pos is the problem. Not a genuine player to contribute with an attack.
Mid section problem we have is with alonso and macha, they tend to play to deep.
If we could adopt a formation that would leave one player as a defensive mid and 4 attacking mids supporting torres, i think would be more effective.
Its a formation legbarnes posted on one of the threads.
Would go something like this

               Riena
Arba      carra  skrtel/agger    Dossena/aurelli

                 Mascha


kuty/benny  Alonso    gerrard   Riera/babel?

                 Torres

4-4-2 is a good formation but i still am not convinced that we are good at it. This season we have not played particularly well. Only way around that formation is if we find a prolific striker that could work well with torres and a class right mid player.

Also going back on dirky boy i think at the moment his the best option we have got at right mid. You said benny is in the same boat as him. I would agree but considering our options i think i would take kuyt over benny.
Until we sort out our right mid were stuck with kuyt..

I really don't think that the formation matters at all in these situations.  Our established problem, going back several seasons and very apparent this season, is breaking down teams that sit deep and look to get numbers behind the ball.  In these situations, most of our players end up being camped in the opponent's half so it's not like Torres is getting isolated up top or anything like that.  In most cases, we look like this:

           Carragher                            Skrtel
----------------------Centre Line-----------------------------

                  Alonso                Masch

Arbeloa                                                               Dossena

        Kuyt                      Gerrard                       Riera

                               Torres

               ---------------------------------------
                             Opponent's  Area



What we lack has nothing to do with the formation and everything to do with the type of player needed to break teams down.  We lack someone with the guile and creativity to work in congested spaces around the "D" and play the likes of Torres and Stevie and Riera in with nice little through balls.  We also lack fullbacks who can consistently get around the back of the opponents and put in dangerous balls into the box.  In short, we have a personnel problem, not a formation problem.

Against deep defences, our forwards (mainly Torres) are stuck fixing the position between the central backs outside the box or receiving on the wing, he never help the midfield keeping the ball back to the goal (it allows to the midfield line and the fullbacks go ahead). Another problem is with our hold midfielders (Mascherano and Alonso), they never go forward, they have no mobility. Look at Anderson at United, he has mobility, it breaks the defences. If our hold midfielders are fixing their position that´s good for not conceding goals but it´s impossible to beat "ten men behind the ball".

We have no mobility, our forwards doesn´t help the midfield, and we played too direct. We have good enough players to beat Stoke, West Ham, Fulham and bitters ten times in a row. Our problem is not the lack of quality players.

As rob stated we do need a player that could also feed torres and gerrard. The player has to be an attacking minded player. I would love alonso to push up a gear and move forward often.
It is quite difficult to break teams who are ultra defending when we have macha and alonso digging deep.
IMO we something that will also help remove this problem is a class right mid.
Also i like arby at right back but dont really rate aurellio.
When riise was on fire that is the sort of fullback you want.

[Sabre]

Against deep defences, our forwards (mainly Torres) are stuck fixing the position between the central backs outside the box or receiving on the wing, he never help the midfield keeping the ball back to the goal (it allows to the midfield line and the fullbacks go ahead). Another problem is with our hold midfielders (Mascherano and Alonso), they never go forward, they have no mobility. Look at Anderson at United, he has mobility, it breaks the defences. If our hold midfielders are fixing their position that´s good for not conceding goals but it´s impossible to beat "ten men behind the ball".

We have no mobility, our forwards doesn´t help the midfield, and we played too direct. We have good enough players to beat Stoke, West Ham, Fulham and bitters ten times in a row. Our problem is not the lack of quality players.

I disagree in almost everything.

Playing too direct at times used to be one of our troubles at some point, and we also struggled against deep defences when we had strikers that did the job of supporting the midfield you mention.

When you look at how we play as of late this teams these days, sometimes you can see really long posessions, not exactly that Gerrard decides to finnish the play the first time he gets the ball as of late.

In the last games you could see often our team stretched wide, with one man stepping each of the white side lines at the beginning of the play. Then as of late that play evolves in a fairly long posession, but the problems are two, we rarely beat our man on the wings and the movements between the lines are not good enough and sometimes our passing in the 3/4 of the pitch is not fast enough to unsettle defences.

Alonso might have not mobility but these days is moving forward more and is giving 2 or 3 deep quality passes per game every game. Mascherano is necessary in any team that pretends to be dominating and want to keep their back covered. Our problem is not in the CM. Our problem is we need someone better than Kuyt with the ball on the right.

If that problem isn't fixed, bringing a player who's creative behind the second striker will be like pulling the blanket to cover the chest and leave the feet uncovered unless we move Gerrard permanently to the right, in which case the problem would be equally solved. Always talking from my deep experience in the bench as a fan I am 

[Alex G.]

When you look at how we play as of late this teams these days, sometimes you can see really long posessions, not exactly that Gerrard decides to finnish the play the first time he gets the ball as of late.

In the last games you could see often our team stretched wide, with one man stepping each of the white side lines at the beginning of the play. Then as of late that play evolves in a fairly long posession, but the problems are two, we rarely beat our man on the wings and the movements between the lines are not good enough and sometimes our passing in the 3/4 of the pitch is not fast enough to unsettle defences.

Alonso might have not mobility but these days is moving forward more and is giving 2 or 3 deep quality passes per game every game. Mascherano is necessary in any team that pretends to be dominating and want to keep their back covered. Our problem is not in the CM. Our problem is we need someone better than Kuyt with the ball on the right.

If that problem isn't fixed, bringing a player who's creative behind the second striker will be like pulling the blanket to cover the chest and leave the feet uncovered unless we move Gerrard permanently to the right, in which case the problem would be equally solved. Always talking from my deep experience in the bench as a fan I am 

Long possesions but not mobility with game between lines.

Horizontal game in all the lines.

You can watch the tremendous gap between the forward line and the central midfield when Liverpool play against deep defences.

Why?  Torres never keep the possesion, when he receives the ball just break the pace and go straight towards the goal. He should play more back to the goal, allowing Alonso to go forward. But he has no pause and Gerrard either. Too direct game, easy for the defenders.

Leiva has more mobility than Alonso but he is not good enough.

[Fowler_E7]

pretty much every team has a player that if you took out would drop a lt of places in the league -

Chelsea- Lampard
Mancs- Ronlado
Arsenal - fabregas
Villa - Agbonlahor

even abroad

Barce- Messi
AC - Kaka

etc etc

[LegBarnes]

pretty much every team has a player that if you took out would drop a lt of places in the league -

Chelsea- Lampard
Mancs- Ronlado
Arsenal - fabregas
Villa - Agbonlahor

even abroad

Barce- Messi
AC - Kaka

etc etc

I know its bollox ain't it more to all those teams then those players funny as hell.