Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:01 am

That team picked on saturday was ultra defensive it was pathetic against very poor relegation fodder Stoke.
Lakes keeps saying Rafa doesnt do his homework on lesser teams, well I dont agree with that infact I wish he didnt do his home work against them instead of over analyzing them its more about stopping the other teams rather than doing our own job.

Our defenders where trying to entice Stoke out by passing it around the back but they where not going anywhere I seen some Stoke player barking orders to his team mates to stay there, dont move and they didnt there was noway any of them passengers where getting off that bus, so why didnt we try something different?
Why not up the tempo, why not bring 2 strikers on? I am baffled by it if I am honest it was horrible.

The team that played Stoke at Anfield was the best we have but 40 shots on target we scored once only for it to be disaloud. Two shots on target against them in the second half on saturday well its just not good enough.
The whole team stunk the joint out even Reina was flapping, after the match Rafa was interviewed with a beaming smile I couldnt find anything to smile about it was woeful, it was dire, it was probably the worst performance of the season.
But Rafa seemed happy enough with the point.

But we are no strangers to this we have seen it far to often for my liking 13 draws last season fecked up our title hopes, this season draws against Stoke twice when we should have least took 4 points off them, Fulham, West ham, Arsenal, Hull.

Thats 6 draws half way through the season no doubt there will be more useless draws along the way and its going to be our downfall if rafa doesnt put things right, we cannot afford anymore fuck ups from here on in.

And the weird thing is I dont think we will get beat either the rest of the season.
The shackles need to come off from now on no more cautious bollox against dross just go for it because this over analyzing teams that we should be putting to the sword is going to hurt us in the end.

Time to start giving Babel a run in the team maybe we will see the Babel that scored some crackers last season, drop Kuyt, Lucas and Bennynoon and give others a chance.

But this failure to break down 10 man defences needs sorting out maybe bring in a match winner or a big target man to throw on for the the last 20 minutes to win things in the air because without Torres up top we dont have any height Keane & Kuyt arnt the tallest.

And you can bet your life other teams will know we cant break 10 men behind the ball jobs down and they will employ the same tactics against us. Time to start being more ruthless from set pieces look at Everton they dont even have one fit striker yet have won their last 5 games, all the money we have spent on forwards and over 50 million pounds worth was sat on their @rses on the bench on saturday you have to question WHY?

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:21 am

regardless of 10 man or 11 man stoke:

nil all against a side that we should, on paper, be beating

After half and hour, liverpool looked out of sorts, and lacked a definitive cutting edge. Even with the introduction Torres, we still didnt look like winning - despite the off the cross bar effort from Gerrard!!

Lucas was dire, as usual, and for the life of me, i dunno why we persist in a player like him that at times would much suit a place in a kitchen as a cook, rather than a footballer. He gave away silly fouls in dangerous areas, and if it had been Ronaldo or Deco on the end of a free kick, then id fear we would have been 1 or 2 down to them. Thank god it was Stoke, and their players lack the finess of the better ones in the premiership.

Imo, Keane shouldve got a run out after the first 15 mins of the second half. Gerrard dropping in the hole behind Torres and keane. Formation shouldve been 4-3-1-2.
This wouldve created far more chances against a static Stoke. I feel we couldve opened them up, and if we'd got a goal, then the floodgates may have opened up for us. But alas, NO!!!

It beggars belief sometimes, that as we are top we should be finishing off lesser teams with more swagger. Although i hate man utd, you have to admire their destruction of chelsea. That for manure was on the back of a humiliation at derby. We need more fight like that if we are to bring the championship home

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:31 am

The problems are...

1) 4-5-1. I don't believe this formation will work with this current Squad, Manager or team mentality. Some disagree (Hi Scottbot!), but I think the way that Liverpool utilise this formation will always mean a struggle for goals.

Judge's formation would work better, with Gerrard used a floating provider for two strikers, but I can't ever in a million years see Rafa using a formation like that. Liverpool won't win every game with that formation, but I certainly feel that it would be a far more positive and aggressive formation than the one Rafa currently favors.

2) Rafael Benitez. He is far too defensive IMHO. Hence, he leaves 40 million pounds worth of strikers on the bench, plays a defensive formation and uses possibly the worst striker in the history of the club ALONE up front. Simply put, Rafa places more credence on "Not Losing" rather than risking a loss in persuit of an all out attack mentality to win. He also is quite a petty manager who lets personal animosity get in the way of a result. We've seen him take a dislike to Steve Finnan, Peter Crouch and I bet there's been arguments with Robbie as well...with the results we've seen. These were/are players of quality who were managed very badly by Rafa, while he plays the likes of Dirk Kuyt who has a very limited offering in nearly every game.

3) Our midfield is essentially a defensive organisation, with only Gerrard as it's true attacker. Most of the time they do not follow through in an attack and that leaves our (quite often) lone striker completely isolated, with nowhere to go and the attack breaks down. There were numerous times I've seen Keane get by the defence and foeced to the left or right, with nobody up with him and he's forced to abandon the attack. Also, in the Stoke match there were many times when Kuyt was in wilderness with 4 Stoke defenders completely eliminating him from the game. Our Left wing attack has opened up now with Riera, but the lad still has a bit of a way to go yet.

by **Effes** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:32 am

Judge wrote:regardless of 10 man or 11 man stoke:

nil all against a side that we should, on paper, be beating

After half and hour, liverpool looked out of sorts, and lacked a definitive cutting edge. Even with the introduction Torres, we still didnt look like winning - despite the off the cross bar effort from Gerrard!!

Lucas was dire, as usual, and for the life of me, i dunno why we persist in a player like him that at times would much suit a place in a kitchen as a cook, rather than a footballer. He gave away silly fouls in dangerous areas, and if it had been Ronaldo or Deco on the end of a free kick, then id fear we would have been 1 or 2 down to them. Thank god it was Stoke, and their players lack the finess of the better ones in the premiership.

Imo, Keane shouldve got a run out after the first 15 mins of the second half. Gerrard dropping in the hole behind Torres and keane. Formation shouldve been 4-3-1-2.
This wouldve created far more chances against a static Stoke. I feel we couldve opened them up, and if we'd got a goal, then the floodgates may have opened up for us. But alas, NO!!!

It beggars belief sometimes, that as we are top we should be finishing off lesser teams with more swagger. Although i hate man utd, you have to admire their destruction of chelsea. That for manure was on the back of a humiliation at derby. We need more fight like that if we are to bring the championship home

Flippin eck Judge, you're getting some mileage out of that post aren't ya?

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:02 pm

err yeah

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:13 pm

Ciggy wrote:That team picked on saturday was ultra defensive it was pathetic against very poor relegation fodder Stoke.
Lakes keeps saying Rafa doesnt do his homework on lesser teams, well I dont agree with that infact I wish he didnt do his home work against them instead of over analyzing them its more about stopping the other teams rather than doing our own job.

Spot on. Lakes is always wide of the mark with that criticism, IMO, because it's well documented that Rafa makes meticulous preparations for every match. As you say, Cigs, that can be a problem because he gives some teams too much respect. Skrtel was in to deal with the physical play and aerial threat on Saturday and we lose Agger's ability on the ball. Benayoun was presumably there to play 'between the lines' but that means zero width on his flank, except that provided by Carra, who is a fish out of water going forward. Kuyt is a more physical presence than Keane as a lone striker but his goal threat of late has been negligible and he gives their defenders the freedom to push well up when in possession, as he has no pace to trouble them in behind.

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:16 pm

tonyeh wrote:The problems are...

1) 4-5-1. I don't believe this formation will work with this current Squad, Manager or team mentality. Some disagree (Hi Scottbot!), but I think the way that Liverpool utilise this formation will always mean a struggle for goals.

Judge's formation would work better, with Gerrard used a floating provider for two strikers, but I can't ever in a million years see Rafa using a formation like that. Liverpool won't win every game with that formation, but I certainly feel that it would be a far more positive and aggressive formation than the one Rafa currently favors.

2) Rafael Benitez. He is far too defensive IMHO. Hence, he leaves 40 million pounds worth of strikers on the bench, plays a defensive formation and uses possibly the worst striker in the history of the club ALONE up front. Simply put, Rafa places more credence on "Not Losing" rather than risking a loss in persuit of an all out attack mentality to win. He also is quite a petty manager who lets personal animosity get in the way of a result. We've seen him take a dislike to Steve Finnan, Peter Crouch and I bet there's been arguments with Robbie as well...with the results we've seen. These were/are players of quality who were managed very badly by Rafa, while he plays the likes of Dirk Kuyt who has a very limited offering in nearly every game.

3) Our midfield is essentially a defensive organisation, with only Gerrard as it's true attacker. Most of the time they do not follow through in an attack and that leaves our (quite often) lone striker completely isolated, with nowhere to go and the attack breaks down. There were numerous times I've seen Keane get by the defence and foeced to the left or right, with nobody up with him and he's forced to abandon the attack. Also, in the Stoke match there were many times when Kuyt was in wilderness with 4 Stoke defenders completely eliminating him from the game. Our Left wing attack has opened up now with Riera, but the lad still has a bit of a way to go yet.

woohoo at the bold highlighted

see my post for confirmation, peasants

by **Owzat** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:26 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Ciggy wrote:That team picked on saturday was ultra defensive it was pathetic against very poor relegation fodder Stoke.
Lakes keeps saying Rafa doesnt do his homework on lesser teams, well I dont agree with that infact I wish he didnt do his home work against them instead of over analyzing them its more about stopping the other teams rather than doing our own job.

Spot on. Lakes is always wide of the mark with that criticism, IMO, because it's well documented that Rafa makes meticulous preparations for every match. As you say, Cigs, that can be a problem because he gives some teams too much respect. Skrtel was in to deal with the physical play and aerial threat on Saturday and we lose Agger's ability on the ball. Benayoun was presumably there to play 'between the lines' but that means zero width on his flank, except that provided by Carra, who is a fish out of water going forward. Kuyt is a more physical presence than Keane as a lone striker but his goal threat of late has been negligible and he gives their defenders the freedom to push well up when in possession, as he has no pace to trouble them in behind.

I have said before that I think Rafa is too tactical, instead of letting a team with much better players do the talking, he tries to 'out-tactic' weaker teams instead of concentrating on how to score against a team we should score (plenty) against. We played Carra (RB>CB), Kuyt (CF>RM) and Benayoun (RM>Bench) out of position, left £40m worth of striker on the bench and he reacted way too late with substitutions as usual. Most of us could tell it wasn't going right before half-time, a change can not only bring on fresh ideas or a change of formation, but change the negativity that must have been creeping into the players' minds.

Rafa struggles to change the way a game is going, our players aren't creative enough as I've pointed out before and that all adds up to not enough goals. We badly missed Alonso, even if we had pinged crosses and through balls towards our men in the box that would have been who - Kuyt and Gerrard on the receving end? Every game there is scope to criticise Rafa's selections, tactics and/or substitutions. I believe a lot of the criticism is justified. if only his tactics etc made as much of a statement as his attack on fergie.

People were saying "we're top and winning without playing well" in anticipation of us playing well. The difference now is we're still not playing well and not winning, an inevitability to those accused of being negative when they said it.

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:41 pm

Judge wrote:
tonyeh wrote:The problems are...

1) 4-5-1. I don't believe this formation will work with this current Squad, Manager or team mentality. Some disagree (Hi Scottbot!), but I think the way that Liverpool utilise this formation will always mean a struggle for goals.

Judge's formation would work better, with Gerrard used a floating provider for two strikers, but I can't ever in a million years see Rafa using a formation like that. Liverpool won't win every game with that formation, but I certainly feel that it would be a far more positive and aggressive formation than the one Rafa currently favors.

2) Rafael Benitez. He is far too defensive IMHO. Hence, he leaves 40 million pounds worth of strikers on the bench, plays a defensive formation and uses possibly the worst striker in the history of the club ALONE up front. Simply put, Rafa places more credence on "Not Losing" rather than risking a loss in persuit of an all out attack mentality to win. He also is quite a petty manager who lets personal animosity get in the way of a result. We've seen him take a dislike to Steve Finnan, Peter Crouch and I bet there's been arguments with Robbie as well...with the results we've seen. These were/are players of quality who were managed very badly by Rafa, while he plays the likes of Dirk Kuyt who has a very limited offering in nearly every game.

3) Our midfield is essentially a defensive organisation, with only Gerrard as it's true attacker. Most of the time they do not follow through in an attack and that leaves our (quite often) lone striker completely isolated, with nowhere to go and the attack breaks down. There were numerous times I've seen Keane get by the defence and foeced to the left or right, with nobody up with him and he's forced to abandon the attack. Also, in the Stoke match there were many times when Kuyt was in wilderness with 4 Stoke defenders completely eliminating him from the game. Our Left wing attack has opened up now with Riera, but the lad still has a bit of a way to go yet.

woohoo at the bold highlighted

see my post for confirmation, peasants

Rafa out...Judge in.

That's the latest call from Stu, so I believe.

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:36 pm

tonyeh wrote:
Judge wrote:
tonyeh wrote:The problems are...

1) 4-5-1. I don't believe this formation will work with this current Squad, Manager or team mentality. Some disagree (Hi Scottbot!), but I think the way that Liverpool utilise this formation will always mean a struggle for goals.

Judge's formation would work better, with Gerrard used a floating provider for two strikers, but I can't ever in a million years see Rafa using a formation like that. Liverpool won't win every game with that formation, but I certainly feel that it would be a far more positive and aggressive formation than the one Rafa currently favors.

2) Rafael Benitez. He is far too defensive IMHO. Hence, he leaves 40 million pounds worth of strikers on the bench, plays a defensive formation and uses possibly the worst striker in the history of the club ALONE up front. Simply put, Rafa places more credence on "Not Losing" rather than risking a loss in persuit of an all out attack mentality to win. He also is quite a petty manager who lets personal animosity get in the way of a result. We've seen him take a dislike to Steve Finnan, Peter Crouch and I bet there's been arguments with Robbie as well...with the results we've seen. These were/are players of quality who were managed very badly by Rafa, while he plays the likes of Dirk Kuyt who has a very limited offering in nearly every game.

3) Our midfield is essentially a defensive organisation, with only Gerrard as it's true attacker. Most of the time they do not follow through in an attack and that leaves our (quite often) lone striker completely isolated, with nowhere to go and the attack breaks down. There were numerous times I've seen Keane get by the defence and foeced to the left or right, with nobody up with him and he's forced to abandon the attack. Also, in the Stoke match there were many times when Kuyt was in wilderness with 4 Stoke defenders completely eliminating him from the game. Our Left wing attack has opened up now with Riera, but the lad still has a bit of a way to go yet.

woohoo at the bold highlighted

see my post for confirmation, peasants

Rafa out...Judge in.

That's the latest call from Stu, so I believe.

peasants out also matey

by **milou** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:58 pm

Many on here have pointed out that Rafa is "defensive" minded.. but I would like to think of him as more a "defence first" manager.. which is the correct approach IMHO. But unfortunately, he is lacking in his attacking thinking & flexibility to support his brilliant defensive foundation that he has already built in LIverpool.

I think it is the very same reason (and therefore NOT a co-incidence) why we are so strong in Europe these days. How many times have we seen Rafa outwitted his opponents over 2 legs, particularly Mourihno in UCL & FA? This is the SAME manager who has been beating Rafa almost for fun in the league during his time in England!

People may say Rafa prefers UCL over BPL.. I beg to differ. I think his game plan & methods are more suited to succeed in Europe. And so it proved. In Europe, the game plan is almost always the same, isn't it? Play away first (hopefully) & defend with guile.. counter-attack and nick a goal if we can.. if not just bring it back to Anfield with a 0-0 aggregate. Back at Anfield, more defending and counter-attacking. Well.. more often that not, we normally prevail in the end.

I have not seen any team that parked a bus in front of goal in UCL (like stoke, fulham and the likes).. probably bcos these are Europe elites that have too much pride to do so.. But one thing for sure, the 2-legged format with away-goal rule almost CERTAINLY discourage you to do so.

I will go even further to argue that if Champ league final 2005 & 2007 were decided over 2 legs, I think we could have won BOTH finals with 1-0 aggregate.

So the very reason that makes Rafa successful in Europe now appears to be the problem in BPL IMHO. We just cannot change all the 0-0 to 1-0 ... It almost feels like as if we don't try even hard enough when things don't go our way during a game like vs Stoke. All the suspicious line-ups and substitutions (often very late) obviously don't help either.

The thing is if there is a choice between "we are level now, let's go for a win eventhough we may lose" and "we are level now, let's secure the draw and try to win if we can", Rafa will almost always choose the latter in the league IMHO. But in UCL, such choices are seldom available because only ONE scoreline (identical as your first leg) is consider a draw! So you either react or lose!

But strangely, for a few games earlier in the season.. I dunno what went thru his mind but he actually behaved "un-Rafa" like and went for the kill. Remember how he swapped our 2 fullbacks and ended the games with 4 wingers.. and we actually won!!?? Then before long, he is back to his old "defence first" self.. and a strings of 0-0 followed

Lastly, I will controversially say that we MAYBE better off letting other teams to lead the table now. It MAY, just MAY, force Rafa to take more risk in his attacking game.. bcos by then, he should start seeing draw as a non-option (like in UCL).

I hope and pray things will start going our way bcos we are SO close this year. YNWA.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:03 pm

We need a Heskey or Crouch against sides like that.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:55 pm

Its creativity not brawn that you need against the 10 men behind the ball sides. They usually have enough big men to make any ball in the air theirs, and are quite happy to conceed corners and freekicks (out wide). When you have as much possession as Liverpool usually have against these teams its the subtle pass that brings rewards, but the gaps are narrow and the spaces filled, so it takes a special kind of talent to find the right pass. Something that Liverpool have missed for a long time now. We have had to rely on exceptional strikers like Owen and Torres who can make something out of nothing, rather than add the cunning of a genuinely creative second striker. Its probably also why the list of strikers that fail at Anfield grows ever longer, if they arn't exceptional ...... they struggle and fail.

We need a new Dalglish or Beardsley ...... someone like Diego or even Aguero or Arshavin.

by **Judge** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:03 pm

s@int wrote:Its creativity not brawn that you need against the 10 men behind the ball sides.
We need a new Dalglish or Beardsley ...... someone like Diego or even Aguero or Arshavin.

how about KEANE? :idea

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:19 pm

Judge wrote:
s@int wrote:Its creativity not brawn that you need against the 10 men behind the ball sides.
We need a new Dalglish or Beardsley ...... someone like Diego or even Aguero or Arshavin.

how about KEANE?

As I said when he first came, Keane IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A CREATIVE SECOND STRIKER. He is a striker that likes to run from deep, he has a few flicks and tricks, but is not an incisive passer of the ball.

I still think Keane is a good striker, but he is not what Liverpool required at all. I would rather they had gone for a target man than a player who is neither one or the other.

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