Liverpool FC Forum

by **devaney** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:03 am

bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:
the big problem with some of the members on here is that they forget how it feels to be top all the time, they think its great when we end up in the top 4 as thats all they know.

In this life, if you plant tomatoes, you get tomatoes.

If you plant disrespect like this to the fans that defend Rafa, and some months ago it was difficult to defend Rafa around here, then to get respect of those fans is a bit optimistic, to say the least. Especially if we're top of the table and you still claim to have the reallistic views about the whole matter.

We're going to have to disagree here Sabes I'm afraid. This fella is the third one today who has launched into an unprovoked attack on one of my posts, directly quoting as he went. Nothing wrong in that, it is a forum for debate after all, but like the others he chooses to go for the abuse anle rather than explain what he actually thinks himself.

The argument appears to be that as we won the game confortably, and as we are top of the league, anybody who voices an opinion other than that which is overtly HC is a c...

There's no "well I think dropping Keane was a fair enough decision because....", or "I'm actually glad we're rotating more now because of ........", there's none of that.

I had the fella this morning telling me that what I didn't realise was that Rafa likes to change the team not just to keep people fresh, but also to take the opposition into account, (he didn't put it quite so nicely as that but that appeared to be his point from what I could make out) and now this fella with his "FFS take yourt tablets", "buy some specs in the sales", "whats the f.ucking problem".

Once again, no attempt to even voice an opinion of his own, simply a small broadside.

I don't do internet flame wars so I aren't going to start with these people. The way such people are carrying on though and have been for a few weeks now is ridiculous, plain and simple.

Your such an opinionated member that it is hardly worth using facts as I have in the past because you just ignore them. At least you have stopped for one post whingeing about Rafa or the team - YOU ARE NOW WHINGING ABOUT OTHER MEMBERS WHO ARE FED UP WITH THE LIKES OF YOU AND Fo Dne.

The moaning just get's tedious. At the Hull game I had some idiot attacking Rierra for the entire game. So if the Kuyt, Keane, Rierra and Mascherano bashers are all right how are we in the position that we find ourselves?

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:05 am

Well if he wasn't injured, I think dropping Keane was a silly decision. I've already explained why two or three times. Equally, I've been explaining for four seasons now why I would get worried if we were to continue down the path towards mass rotation. I think we have a good chance of winning the title, (and bizarrely have done for three seasons) but I think our chances would be put at risk by such a policy, and think our chances are diminished if Keane isn't playing at somewhere near his best.

People are of course entitled to disagree all they like, but I can't be doing with this throw your toys out of the pram approach simply because somebody has an opinion which is different to your own. If it bothers people so much, put forward a credible argument as to why you think I'm talking utter sh!t. "Rafa rotates the team not just to rest them, but also because he takes the other team into account" doesn't qualify as a credible argument, simply because it is a statement of the glaringly obvious. I didn't think he changed the team for a giggle, I always kind of had a feeling he was doing it because he had a grand plan in mind. The debate has always been whether he concerns himself too much with the opposition, not whether or not he considers them at all.

Similarly, telling somone to take their tablets, talking about "negative whinge mode" telling them to "buy some specs" and pointing out that we are top of the league is not that convincing either.

If people only want to read happy clappy rallying posts, why don't they just skip mine? If they don't want to talk about football, skip any input I make, it really is that simple.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:13 am

devaney wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:
the big problem with some of the members on here is that they forget how it feels to be top all the time, they think its great when we end up in the top 4 as thats all they know.

In this life, if you plant tomatoes, you get tomatoes.

If you plant disrespect like this to the fans that defend Rafa, and some months ago it was difficult to defend Rafa around here, then to get respect of those fans is a bit optimistic, to say the least. Especially if we're top of the table and you still claim to have the reallistic views about the whole matter.

We're going to have to disagree here Sabes I'm afraid. This fella is the third one today who has launched into an unprovoked attack on one of my posts, directly quoting as he went. Nothing wrong in that, it is a forum for debate after all, but like the others he chooses to go for the abuse anle rather than explain what he actually thinks himself.

The argument appears to be that as we won the game confortably, and as we are top of the league, anybody who voices an opinion other than that which is overtly HC is a c...

There's no "well I think dropping Keane was a fair enough decision because....", or "I'm actually glad we're rotating more now because of ........", there's none of that.

I had the fella this morning telling me that what I didn't realise was that Rafa likes to change the team not just to keep people fresh, but also to take the opposition into account, (he didn't put it quite so nicely as that but that appeared to be his point from what I could make out) and now this fella with his "FFS take yourt tablets", "buy some specs in the sales", "whats the f.ucking problem".

Once again, no attempt to even voice an opinion of his own, simply a small broadside.

I don't do internet flame wars so I aren't going to start with these people. The way such people are carrying on though and have been for a few weeks now is ridiculous, plain and simple.

Your such an opinionated member that it is hardly worth using facts as I have in the past because you just ignore them. At least you have stopped for one post whingeing about Rafa or the team - YOU ARE NOW WHINGING ABOUT OTHER MEMBERS WHO ARE FED UP WITH THE LIKES OF YOU AND Fo Dne.

The moaning just get's tedious. At the Hull game I had some idiot attacking Rierra for the entire game. So if the Kuyt, Keane, Rierra and Mascherano bashers are all right how are we in the position that we find ourselves?

I'm not with the greatest respect talking about facts, simply wondering whether you have an opinion other than the "fact" that you are sick of moaners.

I agree though it all gets tedious. It's tedious too from my side having conversations like this one. I've put up my opinions about football, I have none on you at all as I don't know you. If you disagree with my opinions about football, you have three choices it seems to me.

One, you can go for the silly abuse angle.

Two, you can ignore the posts.

Three, you can give an opinion as to why you think I'm talking sh!t.

For my part, as you haven't voiced an opinion as of yet it's difficult for me to know for sure where you are coming from.

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:15 am

Well if he wasn't injured, I think dropping Keane was a silly decision.

If Keane was 90% fit, I'd play Keane.

If he has pain and played last game 90 mins 48 hours ago, I would like to play Keane, but I'd eventually play Kuyt, probably.

In any case, I'd ask the physician, who understand about muscles and risk, what's the risk in his opinion.

I always assume that Rafa manages that info. I stress "assume", because I don't know the reality of Melwood. And since I don't know all the facts, I'd never consider silly Rafa's decissions.

My opinions got a lot of comments of specs. Mine were rose and all that. Welcome to the club Mick, you'll get used to that comments soon.

by **devaney** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:17 am

lakes10 - yes I did read your post and to quote you: "we are Liverpool and we should be No1, that our place in English football and its been far too long since we have been there, 2009 is the year we have the best chance for a long time to take our place back. and yes if we dont then i will be looking to blame someone and that someone will be the manager as he pick the team and buys the players and tells the team how to play" That sounds like your opinion to me and not what other fans are saying - keep it real.

As for Macca if Arsenal hadn't scored he would have been a hero and that is football. BUT WHY DIDN'T YOU BLAME THE MANAGER FOR PICKING MACCA?

by **devaney** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:28 am

Bigmick - Not long ago many members were talking about getting rid of Keane in January - see the Keane thread. Suddenly he scores three excellent goals to make his premiership total five and everybody suddenly forgets just how many opportunities Robbie has missed - remember that tap in he missed when he tried to be as cocky as Ronaldo? Ok I have tried to be patient with Robbie but he simply hasn't set the world on fire until recently but why should that guarantee him a place when the vast majority of his games have been disappointing. Let's face it you give Kuyt enough stick and where would Liverpool be this season without his goals. My point is you would not have complained in the same way if Kuyt had been left out and he has contributed a lot more than Keane this season. One Swallow and all that......

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:32 am

s@int wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:Even the other managers havnt got a clue what hes gonna do. Ill bet you a pound to a penny Alladyce set up his centre backs to deal with Keane.

That would explain Blackburn leaking two late goals to Newcastle then eh Nan!??!

I reckon your our forums own female Bobby Robson

Or even Man City ...... or am I getting even more confused than you two

BTW we missed out on Robinho, I thought he would struggle with the physical side of the game over here...... I am still sure he would if they could get near enough to kick him!

Yous two are gettin me confused now.

I know what i mean. Ill try an explain it so kids can understand :laugh:

Drawing board , Match tactics, Pens moving this way an that way. This player is gonna be here an this one moves an always makes a run there, IM confusing meself now :laugh:

What i was trying to say is i bet you a pound to a penny that Kinnear though Keane would play an set up to contain him.

LOL yous win ive just realised wrong name . Im cackling here like a gooden.

iT TOOK ME AGES TO FIGURE OUT WHY YOUS WERE CONFUSING ME WITH Bobby Robson i was going off me trolley

by **theanfieldgank** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:38 am

First, Thanks to THE REDS!,good job lads!
i wondered how could it be Boss Rafa formulated starting eleven like last night, finally it was answered by the final result.

by **Owzat** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:39 am

To throw something (new) into the debate about Keane, some people go on about playing him until he 'comes good' or 'not dropping him when he's scored'

Well so far this season he's had two distinct patterns of treatment.

Keane (all competitions

Games 1-19 : played in all 19 games, albeit just 30 minutes in four of those where he was a sub. Scored four goals which even if you discount those four subs appearances is still only 1 goal per 4 games

Games 20-30 : has played no more than two games in a row, none as sub. Has played six games and scored three goals, the magical goal every other appearance achieved.

The theory about playing him when he has scored is great and unprovable. He's played the game after he's scored three times and scored just once - the game before last. One of those non-scoring appearances was as sub, so there is barely enough evidence to support this theory since he doesn't score enough goals to prove it one way or the other.

I would have played him against Newcastle simply because they're poor defensively. Rafa tried playing Keane every game early season, it didn't pay dividends. He uses him more sparingly and Keane has scored five in his last seven appearances. That isn't enough for the Keane fan club, they insist he would have scored in the games he missed which is again unprovable. Don't forget four of his last five goals have come against West Brom and Bolton, hardly world class sides. Bolton may have had a good spell of games, but they're only FIVE points better off than West Brom and three above the drop zone.

Another interesting angle.

Keane Starts : P21 W12 D8 L1 F30 A11 (Won 57.14%, GPG 1.43)
Keane Sub : P4 W4 D0 L0 F8 A4 (Won 100.00%, GPG 2.00)
Keane Absent : P5 W3 D1 L1* F13 A8 (Won 60.00%, GPG 2.60)

*Carling Cup defeat at spudz, we were so poor he wouldn't have made a difference

So we've won 7/9 where Keane hasn't started or hasn't even played. He's started all FIVE 0-0 draws, played at least 67 mins in each and totalled 379 mins at an average of 76 mins a game.

by **Toffeehater** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:43 am

devaney wrote:Bigmick - Not long ago many members were talking about getting rid of Keane in January - see the Keane thread. Suddenly he scores three excellent goals to make his premiership total five and everybody suddenly forgets just how many opportunities Robbie has missed - remember that tap in he missed when he tried to be as cocky as Ronaldo? Ok I have tried to be patient with Robbie but he simply hasn't set the world on fire until recently but why should that guarantee him a place when the vast majority of his games have been disappointing. Let's face it you give Kuyt enough stick and where would Liverpool be this season without his goals. My point is you would not have complained in the same way if Kuyt had been left out and he has contributed a lot more than Keane this season. One Swallow and all that......

You don't drop a player in form , there's no two ways about it , this is the 2nd time rafa has done that to keane .

by **LegBarnes** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:47 am

Are we not all just happy we are 3 points clear of chavski.

I have only just come out of my self induced coma after the win.

by **bigmick** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:48 am

devaney wrote:Bigmick - Not long ago many members were talking about getting rid of Keane in January - see the Keane thread. Suddenly he scores three excellent goals to make his premiership total five and everybody suddenly forgets just how many opportunities Robbie has missed - remember that tap in he missed when he tried to be as cocky as Ronaldo? Ok I have tried to be patient with Robbie but he simply hasn't set the world on fire until recently but why should that guarantee him a place when the vast majority of his games have been disappointing. Let's face it you give Kuyt enough stick and where would Liverpool be this season without his goals. My point is you would not have complained in the same way if Kuyt had been left out and he has contributed a lot more than Keane this season. One Swallow and all that......

I don't think people forget about the chances Keane has missed, or the fact he has been very ordinary at all. He has been very poor and has nowhere near justified his price tag up till now.

It is precisely BECAUSE of this, that once he looks like he might be starting to find his feet then it makes sense to me to play him continuously in order for him to gain confidence. Surely, as he cost us 20 million quid we all as Liverpool fans want him to succeed, and I think most would accept that if he is playing well then it to the benefit of the whole team.

As for the Kuyt comparison, I'm not sure what you are on about or where you are coming from to be honest. If you are saying that if Kuyt had scored three goals in his last two appearances that I would be advocating him being dropped, then you are wrong. If you've read many of my posts (which unfortunately for you it seems you have) then you will know for certain that I'm not really up for dropping strikers who are scoring goals, regardless of who they are.

I have consistently criticised Kuyt as a striker, simply because I think he is awful there. I also think he is quite decent as right midfielder, he scores far more goals when he plays out there, and I think the team is weakened both by his omission on the right, and his inclusion up front.

The point about whether or not keane should have played has nothing whatsoever to do with Kuyt. I would say though that if you are comparing them as front players, we are going to have to disagree as I think there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever, even if Keane hasn't been playing well.

by **GYBS** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:09 pm

some of the attacks on mick have been out of order . Mick obviously thinks a lot about everything to do with the club and about selections etc and there is nothing wrong with that , he has an opinion and it entitled to one , people dont have to agree with it all the time , i know i dont but i also know he talks a lot of sense and only wants success for the club and thats what we all want , dont attack his opinion , debate his views . I would just say relax a bit mate , we are doing well , i know its hard to relax and think we are doing well and it all looks good due to many false dawns before . I guess just dont think too much and look at the positives some times and you will see it actually looks pretty damn good at the moment but you wouldnt realise it reading a lot of the posts on here . Happy new year mick and i hope your fears for the rest of the season dont happen .

by **Fo Dne** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:11 pm

sgs wrote:3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

Thats actually quite funny because I completely disagree.

You take Gerrard and Torres out of the team and squad and we wouldn't be a top four side. Simple as that.

by **milou** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:16 pm

bigmick wrote:
devaney wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:
the big problem with some of the members on here is that they forget how it feels to be top all the time, they think its great when we end up in the top 4 as thats all they know.

In this life, if you plant tomatoes, you get tomatoes.

If you plant disrespect like this to the fans that defend Rafa, and some months ago it was difficult to defend Rafa around here, then to get respect of those fans is a bit optimistic, to say the least. Especially if we're top of the table and you still claim to have the reallistic views about the whole matter.

We're going to have to disagree here Sabes I'm afraid. This fella is the third one today who has launched into an unprovoked attack on one of my posts, directly quoting as he went. Nothing wrong in that, it is a forum for debate after all, but like the others he chooses to go for the abuse anle rather than explain what he actually thinks himself.

The argument appears to be that as we won the game confortably, and as we are top of the league, anybody who voices an opinion other than that which is overtly HC is a c...

There's no "well I think dropping Keane was a fair enough decision because....", or "I'm actually glad we're rotating more now because of ........", there's none of that.

I had the fella this morning telling me that what I didn't realise was that Rafa likes to change the team not just to keep people fresh, but also to take the opposition into account, (he didn't put it quite so nicely as that but that appeared to be his point from what I could make out) and now this fella with his "FFS take yourt tablets", "buy some specs in the sales", "whats the f.ucking problem".

Once again, no attempt to even voice an opinion of his own, simply a small broadside.

I don't do internet flame wars so I aren't going to start with these people. The way such people are carrying on though and have been for a few weeks now is ridiculous, plain and simple.

Your such an opinionated member that it is hardly worth using facts as I have in the past because you just ignore them. At least you have stopped for one post whingeing about Rafa or the team - YOU ARE NOW WHINGING ABOUT OTHER MEMBERS WHO ARE FED UP WITH THE LIKES OF YOU AND Fo Dne.

The moaning just get's tedious. At the Hull game I had some idiot attacking Rierra for the entire game. So if the Kuyt, Keane, Rierra and Mascherano bashers are all right how are we in the position that we find ourselves?

I'm not with the greatest respect talking about facts, simply wondering whether you have an opinion other than the "fact" that you are sick of moaners.

I agree though it all gets tedious. It's tedious too from my side having conversations like this one. I've put up my opinions about football, I have none on you at all as I don't know you. If you disagree with my opinions about football, you have three choices it seems to me.

One, you can go for the silly abuse angle.

Two, you can ignore the posts.

Three, you can give an opinion as to why you think I'm talking sh!t.

For my part, as you haven't voiced an opinion as of yet it's difficult for me to know for sure where you are coming from.

I honestly don't quite understand all the argument to and fro here. I think problems always occur when it gets "personal"... when people start questioning each other's "loyalty", "maturity", "intelligence" or the like. I think it is completely childish and spoils the very spirit on what this (or any) forum stands for.

I only know despite the fact that some of us are more optimistic while others more pessimistic, and some prefer gut feelings while others use statistics.. We all LOVE LFC and we all WANT to win little no19! So don't lose sight of the big picture.. I think we are closer than ever this year.

Bigmick, I really don't see the need for explaining yourself too much. I said before (in "ambition" thread).. for all the years I have been reading this forum (I started when Drummerphil was still around.. RIP).. you are one of my most respected poster (eventhough I don't necessarily agree with everything you said). You have your opinions, stick to them and express it moderately and reasonably. Keep it up :;):

Anyway, I would challenge anyone to step-up and admit they are not AT ALL "surprised"/"doubtful"/"dismayed"/"angry" (use any of these stronger or weaker adjectives you prefer but the gist it the same) when they saw the starting line-up BEFORE the match. Can anyone says "Ya, that was a good line-up and let's hammer them now!" ?

The fact that we won comfortably should not change the fact that Rafa managed to surprise us, AGAIN! Of cos noone knows now whether he was lucky or he was a genius.. since NOONE (not even fergie, wenger, jose, etc) would have lined up the way he did.

On the flipside, you have to admire Rafa's courage isn't it? I mean it would be so much easier to just put up a line-up that the whole world expects (or at least less surprised with) than to put up such controversial one that will SURELY get "murdered" from the press and the fans had it gone wrong (even I told my friends "Rafa will get it if we don't win this") !

So there is a deep conviction within this man that his methods will work.. and it did (at least this time). You can call it all you like (stubborn, stupid, crazy.. I have heard them all).. But the fact is that it has brought him consistent success in the past.. so who are we to question him?

So like it or not, Rafa will continue to be Rafa. He has not "seen the light" bcos for him there is no light to start with. He WILL continue to rotate as he thinks necessary... and we will all be surprised every once in a while... and then all the arguing and name-calling will continue

So instead, why not just sit tight and enjoy the ride!? :;):

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