Liverpool FC Forum

[Madmax]

Fantastic result and performance 5-1 , we've been threatening to do that in all our drawn games.. and with Chelsea drawing grt result again.

UP RAFA@s REDS - RED ARMY ON THE MARCH!!!

If you can't enjoy this result - change sport or club

  spot on but we still get some moaners

[zarababe]

Fantastic result and performance 5-1 , we've been threatening to do that in all our drawn games.. and with Chelsea drawing grt result again.

UP RAFA@s REDS - RED ARMY ON THE MARCH!!!

If you can't enjoy this result - change sport or club

  spot on but we still get some moaners

"moaners" is not the word - I bet they're depressed outta their minds that their overt tatical knowledge and analysis coupled with the 'Rafa-bashing' has not conspired to see us toppled from the top !

[neil]

If people only want to read happy clappy rallying posts,

and there it is, a parody.

[bigmick]

I don't think it is a parody Neil to be honest, no. It is simply stating the obvious. You would be the first to point out that in the main my posts aren't as pro-Rafa, optimistic etc etc as many posters on here. I say this despite the fact that two months ago I was on here claiming we were well and truly involved in the title race and was just about the only one prepared to say so, and despite the fact that in the middle of last season I was happy to say I thought we'd go very very close in this one. No matter, I'm the first to admit that if you were making a list of moaners/whingers/fault pickers/people who are never fecking happy no matter what etc etc I'd be somewhere near the top.


I was pointing out to the fella and indeed to you, that if you don't want to read such sh!t, then don't. If you want to stick to more optimistic views, then exercise your internal censor and do so. No parody involved really, unless the term "happy clappy" is now being touted as an insult. Back in the time when people were light hearted about the rotation debate "happy clappy" was the counter to being a "doomer and gloomer". No insult intended or taken with either "slur".

Anyway, as I've read many times recently, we are top of the league so we move on. Today is a new day, lets see what it brings.

[Fo Dne]

Yet we beat ManU without them; and top the table without one of them...

So I ask again- why would you take them out of the team and squad?

Why use a hypothetical situation to justify a scenario that is not grounded on reality, simply to prove an illogical point?

Wow, we won one game without them, jesus christ. What the hell does that prove? Absoloutely nothing.

As for being top without Torres, aparently you can do one. His limited amount of playing time and goals this season aswell as assists has contributed immensely to our position.

Sunderland, Everton and Man City to name the three main contributions, so don't give me that about doing it without him because we haven't. He's still practically won us 6-9 points on his own.

The point is that without these two players the squad looks very much like a Spurs or Newcastle squad with a few good players here and a few bad players there and a couple of middle grounders. The ony difference in the likes of ourselves and the others is Gerrard and Torres.

Infact, I'd go as far as to say if you put Gerrard and Torres in most of the other top 6 or 7 sides then we'd probably swap places with them.

[sgs]

I don't think it is a parody Neil to be honest, no. It is simply stating the obvious. You would be the first to point out that in the main my posts aren't as pro-Rafa, optimistic etc etc as many posters on here. I say this despite the fact that two months ago I was on here claiming we were well and truly involved in the title race and was just about the only one prepared to say so, and despite the fact that in the middle of last season I was happy to say I thought we'd go very very close in this one. No matter, I'm the first to admit that if you were making a list of moaners/whingers/fault pickers/people who are never fecking happy no matter what etc etc I'd be somewhere near the top.


I was pointing out to the fella and indeed to you, that if you don't want to read such sh!t, then don't. If you want to stick to more optimistic views, then exercise your internal censor and do so. No parody involved really, unless the term "happy clappy" is now being touted as an insult. Back in the time when people were light hearted about the rotation debate "happy clappy" was the counter to being a "doomer and gloomer". No insult intended or taken with either "slur".

Anyway, as I've read many times recently, we are top of the league so we move on. Today is a new day, lets see what it brings.

Let there be no misunderstanding; there is nothing wrong with being critical, and I too have my own reasons to be critical of the Manager. Indeed, IMO, the critical voices are esp important, lest we all end up chorussing one another.

But criticism comes with its own responsibility; a responsibility to know what you are being critical of. When you say for instance that "even if we win, the selection would still be ridiculous", then one is forced to question what your motivations are, considering that the ultimate objective of ANY selection is to win!

Surely, whatever maybe the Manager's reasons for the selection, the win and the emphatic nature of the victory validates the selection...Anything else is doodle dee da...

[GYBS]

im sorry stu but the other squads dont have i gk of the quality of pepe nor centre backs like carra skrtel or agger plus midfielders like masher or xabi . As well as other players like keane , reira and kuyt . Yes gerrard and torres are our two world class players but we would be nowhere without the other players to compliment them . Even as stated by our own captain 'best squad he has ever been involved in ' . Also you say torres has been involved in helping us be top with some important goals ? Does that not also count for kuyt who has hit some important winners and has scored more than torres in the prem so far ? You really do a serious injustice to most of our players .it takes more than two superstars .

[bigmick]

But criticism comes with its own responsibility; a responsibility to know what you are being critical of. When you say for instance that "even if we win, the selection would still be ridiculous", then one is forced to question what your motivations are, considering that the ultimate objective of ANY selection is to win!

Of course the first aim is to win the game. Nobody ever said any different. The end though in football doesn't always justify the means, we've seen that many times previously with mass rotation. Mass rotate and you might win the match, you might win a few matches, but does it give you the best chance of maximising the squads potential? You might say yes it does, but the evidence of the last five years leads me to believe it doesn't.

Each match doesn't happen in complete isolation to the ones either before it or after it. If it did, there'd be no such thing as "form" for either teams or individuals. Keane may well be able to put the fact he was dropped for the second time after scoring two goals completely out of his head, continue where he left off as it were. Then again, he may not. If he doesn't, in three weeks time when he can't hit a cows erse with a banjo again, the fact that we managed to beat an awful Newcastle team without him wouldn't be a justifaction for leaving him out in my opinion.

I would have been more up for leaving Gerrard out. I didn't particularly mind leaving Alonso or Riera out. Nobody is saying we must play the same team in every single game, but my point about the "ridiculous" selection is, you don't risk your best available striker clicking out of form just when he looks like he's on the verge of finding some. His was the one omission which made no sense to me, and I said so. As I said earlier, the fact that they were so awful coinvinces me even more that he should have played as I think he would have scored a goal, confidence breeds confidence.

IMHO Keane's form is going to be absolutely crucial to our title challenge. I am unconvinced until I see it that we are about to see Torres at his best in the very near future, and Keane remains our only credible fit striker. He has been a poor aquisition so far based on achievement, but now he is looking like finding form we should build him up and let him ride the tidal wave of confidence. For people who have constantly defended mass rotation, keeping players fresh for the "big matches at the end of the season" and the like to see only the immediate result and not consider the bigger picture is strange to me.

We successfully rotated Peter Crouch out of the form of his life, Keane wasn't in that but he was certainly in the best form he has shown at the club so far. If he wasn't injured, to drop him at Newcastle was plain daft in my opinion. The fact we won 5-1 doesn't change that opinion, neither does it make me think that Babel should start every game or that Alonso's best spot is on the bench. The fact we won 5-1 is lovely, we get three points, their team isn't/wasn't very good but it doesn't have any influence on my feelings on the Keane ommission. We didn't need to lose the game for the factors visa vis him to be relevent. 

[bigmick]

To come back on Stu's "Gerrard/Torres" point, if we didn't have Gerrard we certainly wouldn't be at the top of the league I'm absolutely convinced of that. My guess is we'd be "Villa-ish" in terms of quality. Stick our captain into their midfield, or even up top off Carew and they'd challenge for the top two or three slots I should think. Stick Gerrard into Evertons midfield and they'd probably qualify for the Champions League, stick him in Man U's team and the rest might as well not bother.

If Torres was fit and had the capability to score the ridiculous amount of goals he did in his first season, he'd have a similar effect wherever he went. He'd keep West Brom up on his own no bother, Spurs would challenge for the Champions League etc etc. Take em both out of our team and I don't think we'd get into the top four if I'm honest, Kuyt or no Kuyt.

[taff]

Ok lets forget about Newcastle for a minute as before the game they were at home and fighting for points so we are tainted with the 90 mins that they produced.

I was a bit surprised that Keane did not play a part in the game, not surprised that he didnt start to be honest as he played 90 mins two days earlier and if Im honest he fades quicker than Kuyt over the length of a game although Kuyt does seem to be super fit.  Maybe he was injured maybe not but he was probably not a 100% match fit and seeing how the game panned out from the start we were only ever going to win.

So how about this for an argument that Rafa and the coaching team decided with the 3 points looking good to rest Keane completely which IMO was a good decision if and this is the big IF.  Keane was happy with this and knows its a squad game.  Before you say he wasnt happy how do you know, in fact we dont know.  This might have ruined his confidence as has been stated or he might be over the moon that he knows the club are backing him, he had a rest and will be chomping at the bit for the next game especially after seeing the team create chance after chance.

There is no media frenzy with Keane this time so its the 5 goals scored or maybe that he looked happy with his lot.  Sammy Lee hinted in his interview that its about working hard in training and utilising all squad players so you could read into that that if Keane workd hard in training he will play against Preston and hopefully score some goals.

But as it stands the we ruined Keanes confidence is at this moment in time unfounded as there is every posibility that the club hasnt.  In fact we gave game time to Benny and Babel and Lucas who all needed a lift, and Mash as well to a certain extent so its not all about Keane, but the noises coming from Keane and the club both indicate this anyway.

We have turned a bit of a corner here since the Bolton game where our attacking has improved and one can only assume that this has been worked on in training and now we have a few players who are up for playing but more importantly have proved they can offer a good contribution.

If it was up to me I would let Keane lead the line against Preston and with todays events re SG maybe even partner Kuyt or in an ideal world Torres

[GYBS]

no one is disputing that fact but we have had gerrard for how many years now and got how far in the league ? We had torres last year and came 4th . Its the squad that has us where we are now not just those two and yes that includes kuyt cause without some of his goals we wouldnt be top . Without some of pepes saves we wouldnt be top and so on . Its more than just those two now

[bigmick]

Ok lets forget about Newcastle for a minute as before the game they were at home and fighting for points so we are tainted with the 90 mins that they produced.

I was a bit surprised that Keane did not play a part in the game, not surprised that he didnt start to be honest as he played 90 mins two days earlier and if Im honest he fades quicker than Kuyt over the length of a game although Kuyt does seem to be super fit.  Maybe he was injured maybe not but he was probably not a 100% match fit and seeing how the game panned out from the start we were only ever going to win.

So how about this for an argument that Rafa and the coaching team decided with the 3 points looking good to rest Keane completely which IMO was a good decision if and this is the big IF.  Keane was happy with this and knows its a squad game.  Before you say he wasnt happy how do you know, in fact we dont know.  This might have ruined his confidence as has been stated or he might be over the moon that he knows the club are backing him, he had a rest and will be chomping at the bit for the next game especially after seeing the team create chance after chance.

There is no media frenzy with Keane this time so its the 5 goals scored or maybe that he looked happy with his lot.  Sammy Lee hinted in his interview that its about working hard in training and utilising all squad players so you could read into that that if Keane workd hard in training he will play against Preston and hopefully score some goals.

But as it stands the we ruined Keanes confidence is at this moment in time unfounded as there is every posibility that the club hasnt.  In fact we gave game time to Benny and Babel and Lucas who all needed a lift, and Mash as well to a certain extent so its not all about Keane, but the noises coming from Keane and the club both indicate this anyway.

We have turned a bit of a corner here since the Bolton game where our attacking has improved and one can only assume that this has been worked on in training and now we have a few players who are up for playing but more importantly have proved they can offer a good contribution.

If it was up to me I would let Keane lead the line against Preston and with todays events re SG maybe even partner Kuyt or in an ideal world Torres

Well refreshingly a football post about the whole thing. Most of it I think makes sesne Taff, although nobody said we had "ruined Keanes confidence". I think most people (definately including me) made the point that you RISK damaging his confidence as a result of not playing him. I would also argue that we wasted the opportunity to enhance his confidence even further because he would likely have scored another goal. Also, as has been said many times, if he was injured there is no debate.

Anyway, good post that.

[taff]

To come back on Stu's "Gerrard/Torres" point, if we didn't have Gerrard we certainly wouldn't be at the top of the league I'm absolutely convinced of that. My guess is we'd be "Villa-ish" in terms of quality. Stick our captain into their midfield, or even up top off Carew and they'd challenge for the top two or three slots I should think. Stick Gerrard into Evertons midfield and they'd probably qualify for the Champions League, stick him in Man U's team and the rest might as well not bother.

If Torres was fit and had the capability to score the ridiculous amount of goals he did in his first season, he'd have a similar effect wherever he went. He'd keep West Brom up on his own no bother, Spurs would challenge for the Champions League etc etc. Take em both out of our team and I don't think we'd get into the top four if I'm honest, Kuyt or no Kuyt.

I agree but we have got him and then the manager plans around that.

Or if we didnt have Gerrad then Rafa would have spent 30 million on someone.

Or if Shanks never existed then Liverpool would not be the club they are now and Gerrard would have signed for Everton or Man Utd as a kid or might not even have made it as a footballer or would have joined a Liverpool in the championship and be playing championship football and being linked with Wigan

I am not trying to have a go Mick I mean that sincerely but these arguments however interesting are academic IMO although I am still happy to debate them 

[bigmick]

Taff I was just sticking me two penneth in, course they're irrelevent mate. I didn't start that one, just thought I'd throw me opinion in the mix.

[taff]

Well refreshingly a football post about the whole thing. Most of it I think makes sesne Taff, although nobody said we had "ruined Keanes confidence". I think most people (definately including me) made the point that you RISK damaging his confidence as a result of not playing him. I would also argue that we wasted the opportunity to enhance his confidence even further because he would likely have scored another goal. Also, as has been said many times, if he was injured there is no debate.

Anyway, good post that.

Ok the risk thing is important as the feeling I get (but with no evidence) is that the squad is gaining in confidence and by this I also mean Keane as part of the squad.  And with the fact that there was hardly a mention of him in todays papers as they have gushed about our performance then I am assuming and this is the big IF part, that the squad seems happier and again a big assumption is that there was no RISK as he knows he a has a big part to play.

A few games ago it was Keane strikes a lonely figure in the warmdown as he wasnt used, today its Liverpool show their title hand at last etc etc.

By the way we might not agree but I agree less with the attacks on you.  There is no need to get personal as your views can easily be taken apart with logic and wit    If it all gets too much come and discuss Korean films with me and Woof