Liverpool FC Forum

[GYBS]

your right but we also need plenty other quality players around them to keep us there , would the mancs of done so well without rooney and ronaldo or chelsea without lampard and drogba ? We do have a very good squad , prob better than some realise , we managed to beat man utd without torres and gerrard and chelsea without torres . In past times other squad players havent stepped up when those big players have been missing but this season we are starting to see they are at last which is great to see . Think we could do with maybe one or two more additions but the outlook can only be positive .

[Octsky]

To throw something (new) into the debate about Keane, some people go on about playing him until he 'comes good' or 'not dropping him when he's scored'

Well so far this season he's had two distinct patterns of treatment.

Keane (all competitions

Games 1-19 : played in all 19 games, albeit just 30 minutes in four of those where he was a sub. Scored four goals which even if you discount those four subs appearances is still only 1 goal per 4 games

Games 20-30 : has played no more than two games in a row, none as sub. Has played six games and scored three goals, the magical goal every other appearance achieved.

The theory about playing him when he has scored is great and unprovable. He's played the game after he's scored three times and scored just once - the game before last. One of those non-scoring appearances was as sub, so there is barely enough evidence to support this theory since he doesn't score enough goals to prove it one way or the other.

I would have played him against Newcastle simply because they're poor defensively. Rafa tried playing Keane every game early season, it didn't pay dividends. He uses him more sparingly and Keane has scored five in his last seven appearances. That isn't enough for the Keane fan club, they insist he would have scored in the games he missed which is again unprovable. Don't forget four of his last five goals have come against West Brom and Bolton, hardly world class sides. Bolton may have had a good spell of games, but they're only FIVE points better off than West Brom and three above the drop zone.

Another interesting angle.

Keane Starts : P21 W12 D8 L1 F30 A11 (Won 57.14%, GPG 1.43)
Keane Sub : P4 W4 D0 L0 F8 A4 (Won 100.00%, GPG 2.00)
Keane Absent : P5 W3 D1 L1* F13 A8 (Won 60.00%, GPG 2.60)

*Carling Cup defeat at spudz, we were so poor he wouldn't have made a difference

So we've won 7/9 where Keane hasn't started or hasn't even played. He's started all FIVE 0-0 draws, played at least 67 mins in each and totalled 379 mins at an average of 76 mins a game.

ok i think owzat is the stats king here..so correct me if i am wrong. i heard or read it somewhere that a majority of keane's goals (70%) comes at a second half of the season.
and i am not a big fan of rotation policy..it nvr works.

we have to keep the core of the team playing week in week out..something like the 04's arsenal and mid - late 90's man . dropping keane after he scored 2 wonder goals is not good to any of us.

[DanAn]

To throw something (new) into the debate about Keane, some people go on about playing him until he 'comes good' or 'not dropping him when he's scored'

Well so far this season he's had two distinct patterns of treatment.

Keane (all competitions

Games 1-19 : played in all 19 games, albeit just 30 minutes in four of those where he was a sub. Scored four goals which even if you discount those four subs appearances is still only 1 goal per 4 games

Games 20-30 : has played no more than two games in a row, none as sub. Has played six games and scored three goals, the magical goal every other appearance achieved.

The theory about playing him when he has scored is great and unprovable. He's played the game after he's scored three times and scored just once - the game before last. One of those non-scoring appearances was as sub, so there is barely enough evidence to support this theory since he doesn't score enough goals to prove it one way or the other.

I would have played him against Newcastle simply because they're poor defensively. Rafa tried playing Keane every game early season, it didn't pay dividends. He uses him more sparingly and Keane has scored five in his last seven appearances. That isn't enough for the Keane fan club, they insist he would have scored in the games he missed which is again unprovable. Don't forget four of his last five goals have come against West Brom and Bolton, hardly world class sides. Bolton may have had a good spell of games, but they're only FIVE points better off than West Brom and three above the drop zone.

Another interesting angle.

Keane Starts : P21 W12 D8 L1 F30 A11 (Won 57.14%, GPG 1.43)
Keane Sub : P4 W4 D0 L0 F8 A4 (Won 100.00%, GPG 2.00)
Keane Absent : P5 W3 D1 L1* F13 A8 (Won 60.00%, GPG 2.60)

*Carling Cup defeat at spudz, we were so poor he wouldn't have made a difference

So we've won 7/9 where Keane hasn't started or hasn't even played. He's started all FIVE 0-0 draws, played at least 67 mins in each and totalled 379 mins at an average of 76 mins a game.

ok i think owzat is the stats king here..so correct me if i am wrong. i heard or read it somewhere that a majority of keane's goals (70%) comes at a second half of the season.
and i am not a big fan of rotation policy..it nvr works.

we have to keep the core of the team playing week in week out..something like the 04's arsenal and mid - late 90's man . dropping keane after he scored 2 wonder goals is not good to any of us.

Two day break changes everything IMO. Some players are up to backing it up two days after playing 90 mins. Given the amount of times Keane has been subbed. I am inclined to believe he can't handle a big workload.

The two times this year I have seen Rafa rotated, it has been with gooh reason. Definately not like it has been in previous years.

[sgs]

1. Yes, a 'basic fact is a team only wins if the individuals perform..' IndividualS, not individual. And it is those individualS who collectively build momentum for the team, not one person. So let me say it again: its the team stuupid!

2. No sir, it is not his decisions and team selections that are the main reason behind any sort of achievment we had in the past few years...It is actually the ghost of Shankly!!!

3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

I really can't see why, given this post, that you decided to come out guns blazing previously. You clearly rate the manager very highly, believe in his rotational way of thinking 100% and trust him implicitly to make the correct calls in the use of his squad from game to game.

That I don't rate the manager as highly as you, and that I don't believe in the rotational theory quite so avidly, and that I don't trust him to mkae the correct call every single time, is my privilage surely?

Because I disagree with you, it doesn't necessarily mean you are talking sh!t, it means simply that we disagree.

Quite why you decided to go on your little rant earlier on, only you will know. I also note that you have as yet declined the opportunity to post up any thoughts on the game of your own, other than your passionate defence of all things Rafa.


To come back to your point about individual(s) as opposed to individual, it is silliness and semantics combining to cloud the issue, and I can't help thinking this is where you are confusing yourself. A football team by definition is made up of eleven individual players. If those eleven people collectively perform to somewhere near their optimum level both as individuals and as a team, then you have a more than even chance of overachievement. Therefore as sure as night follows day that if you have the opportunity to have your only fit striker firing on all cylinders, it's worth taking the necessary steps to ensure this happens if you can. It really is quite a simple concept, which I think you must be deliberately failing to grasp.

I take on board your allegiance to all things Rafa, but to claim to not even understand peoples concerns about Keane not starting indicates to me that you are either clueless, or more likely spoiling for an argument. To disagree with the doubters in one thing, to come out like you did is entirely another.

It appears that my very strong words have generated a frenzy of back and forth insults. I never intended that...but my point remains.

According to you, 'even if we win' the team selection is ridiculous. I mean, help me out here- how can that be?

The win VALIDATES the team selection!

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, as I am; and FYI I do disagree with Rafa. But I insist you must first understand the man's perspective to be able to offer real opinion, one way or the other, rather than merely regurgitate a seemingly unending drivel...

[sgs]

3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

Thats actually quite funny because I completely disagree.

You take Gerrard and Torres out of the team and squad and we wouldn't be a top four side. Simple as that.

A simple question then: why would you take them out?

[Fo Dne]

3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

Thats actually quite funny because I completely disagree.

You take Gerrard and Torres out of the team and squad and we wouldn't be a top four side. Simple as that.

A simple question then: why would you take them out?

The point was clear. The strength isn't in the squad. Its in our only two world class players.

[maypaxvobiscum]

3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

Thats actually quite funny because I completely disagree.

You take Gerrard and Torres out of the team and squad and we wouldn't be a top four side. Simple as that.

A simple question then: why would you take them out?

The point was clear. The strength isn't in the squad. Its in our only two world class players.

some people just cant see the point Stu 
besides, the manager doesnt have to take them out. they can always get injured while on international duty.

[GYBS]

what about the strength at the back as well ? Gk and cbs ? Yes torres and gerrard are our best two players but we are more than that and have shown it this season .

[tonyeh]

I sh!t meself yesterday when I seen that starting line up, it was crazy and I thought Rafa what have you done, it was a massive gamble and it paid off thankfully.

I've read this notion several times already (Meaning, not answering just you Lynds)

Ok, that was a gamble. But just checking here, playing Keane and Alonso 90 mins after 48 hours wouldn't be a gamble? I mean do people think that after 48 H, Alonso will be in min 65 like in the last game?

If playing them is also a gamble, then fair enough, everything is a gamble and every opinion is respectable  and all that.

But if someone comes here to say it's the right thing to do and it's no gamble, well, to put it diplomatically I'd have to disagree.

"But just checking here, playing Keane and Alonso 90 mins after 48 hours wouldn't be a gamble? I mean do people think that after 48 H, Alonso will be in min 65 like in the last game?"

Well why not? We're talking about professional footballers here, not 8 year olds. They live and get paid very well to play football. Honestly, I think this "resting" lark is ridiculous at times. It's way overblown and a number of commentators have picked up on the issue before.

I remember when I was younger that sides would play the same guys all the time and they'd have smaller squads than exist today. Even at less well off clubs the squads are bloated.

At the end of the day, it's a couple of games over three days with nearly a week off after that.

That's not much to ask, or much of a gamble in my book. In fact, the only gamble would be an injury and that's a risk the exists in every single game played.

Either way, I doubt very much whether any team Rafa put out yesterday would have failed against the Newcastle team that showed up (or didn't as the case was). They were so shambolic in every department bar goalkeeping, it would have taken some effort on Liverpool's behalf to lose the game.

[GYBS]

yeah the resting business is a dodgy one , do understand why its done as it is a long and physically demanding season and i dont think anyone here can comprehend how tiring it is . I just think back to arsenal last year - they had to play virtually the same team week in week out in both cl and prem and they tired very badly in the end due to lack of depth in the squad , when we get a chance to play the whole squad im more than happy for players to be rested cause we will need them all for the next couple of months and now players like lucas and yossi and maybe even babel will have more playing time and more confidence to be able to step in and do well .

[account deleted by request]

They can all get a good rest now anyway, because no one seems to gve a t0ss about the FA cup this season.

[sgs]

3. The strength of Liverpool is in the squad, not in any one way of playing; a multi-talented squad which allows the coach have tactical flexibility to design play to suit each opponent, or each strategy or change of strategy. Maximum use of that squad is thus what it means to 'play to our strenght'.

Thats actually quite funny because I completely disagree.

You take Gerrard and Torres out of the team and squad and we wouldn't be a top four side. Simple as that.

A simple question then: why would you take them out?

The point was clear. The strength isn't in the squad. Its in our only two world class players.

some people just cant see the point Stu 
besides, the manager doesnt have to take them out. they can always get injured while on international duty.

Yet we beat ManU without them; and top the table without one of them...

So I ask again- why would you take them out of the team and squad?

Why use a hypothetical situation to justify a scenario that is not grounded on reality, simply to prove an illogical point?

[Madmax]

yeah the resting business is a dodgy one , do understand why its done as it is a long and physically demanding season and i dont think anyone here can comprehend how tiring it is . I just think back to arsenal last year - they had to play virtually the same team week in week out in both cl and prem and they tired very badly in the end due to lack of depth in the squad , when we get a chance to play the whole squad im more than happy for players to be rested cause we will need them all for the next couple of months and now players like lucas and yossi and maybe even babel will have more playing time and more confidence to be able to step in and do well .

Yeah for real. This way babel and lucas could get more games. Good to see lucas in decent form. Past few games his played quite good. Babel was not bad either yesterday.

[slickrick]

would chelsea be the same without lampard and drogba?, would utd be the same without rooney and ronaldo?, would arsenal be the same without fabregas and adebayor? obviously not, don't be worrying about us not being any good without gerrard and torres! evert team in the world is in the same situation! we're top of the league that's what we need to be concentrating on

[zarababe]

Fantastic result and performance 5-1 , we've been threatening to do that in all our drawn games.. and with Chelsea drawing grt result again.

UP RAFA@s REDS - RED ARMY ON THE MARCH!!!

If you can't enjoy this result - change sport or club