Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:22 am

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:
To me, many of our draws are down to us switching off for a moment in a match and getting burned for it (Bramble's goal for Wigan; the late penalty at West Ham; Tevez's goal, etc.). This league punishes lack of concentration very steeply and we've dropped points as a result. For me that's a coaching issue (so, yes, getting in an assistant might well help) but it's one that's correctable. Fine margins make the difference and Rafa's such a keen student of the game, I expect him to take notice of these things and work to eridicate them.

Do you not think that it might also be due to the team being happy to settle for beating Wigan one nil rather than pushing on for a second and third, settling for a point at West Ham. Too many times this season its seemed to me that we have switched off as soon as we have scored and allowed the other side back into the game, or only started to play late on in the game rather than taking the game to our opponents from the first whistle.

Villa , Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Cardiff, Porto, Derby, Wigan, Luton, Villa ,Barnsley , 11 games where we took the lead yet allowed them to equalise. Some we went on to win others we lost but top sides don't (or shouldn't) allow teams to come back at them so often.

Absolutely, mate--I think that's a key point. We have definitely lacked that killer instinct at times this year, whereas we've shown it in spades at other times (how many games have we scored 3 or more goals in now?). I don't know if it's down to having such an airtight defense in the past, which might give the players a sense that 1 goal should do the job? It's certainly a mentality issue, in any case, but I don't think it's a "foreigner" mentality problem, at any rate.

It wasn't a "dig" at foreigners Bob, but maybe they see Europe and the CL as much more important than the Prem. Kuyt and Mascherano give the impression that if they were playing in the local park they would still give 100%, while Pennant always looks like he would prefer sitting on the touchline sipping a pint anyway

I found it difficult this season to motivate myself for the early CL games and it was only when we looked like taking an early exit that I really started to feel motivated, and usually I am "up" for the game when its a friendly nevermind a cup. I had my heart set on the League this season and would willingly have sacrificed progress in the CL for the title.

I doubt if many of our players except maybe Gerrard and Carra would feel the same?

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:32 am

I think it has been proven that the number of changes is not really the issue at hand. especially because you are considering changes from different competitions. I think a better statistical analysis would be to figure out what is the most popular assortment of XI, and then how many times each game does rafa differentiate his starting xi from that team. Or else every time rafa rests somebody it counts twice against him because more than likely he is going to have it count as a change the next week when he "changes back" Also, it is important to take into account the forced change aspect of suspensions or injuries.

one of my questions is the chicken vs. the egg debate on whether we have a big squad with a lot of mediocre players because we rotate or do we rotate because we ahve a big squad of about equal players and its hard to determine what the actual best XI is. I am guessing that rafa takes his "rotation" mind into account when he plans his summer spending strategy, and has such built the team for the purpose or rotating it, and that to not rotate it would be a poor use of the teams strengths. If rafa HAS decided to change his ways, I could see some major changes to the way he looks to improve the squad over the summer. I real hope he doesn't go for teh overhaul because as any anti will tell you the team needs time to gel and that a massive overhaul would more than likely rule out our chances for next season before it started. BUT he might start to move for more quality OVER quantity and might sell a player or two more than he expected and might buy a player or two less, and he can be Further encouraged in his confidence to go after the big guys after the success of Torres. Maybe rafa had also been a bid scared to risk so much money on a player in fear of if they fail that would look realllly bad on him and he would have less money to spend elsewhere and the owners would have less confidence in him to shell out the big bucks.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:44 am

I wouldn't go for a big overhaul either Joe... I think that with this squad an addition of even one world class player would make a big difference come next season. Similar to the situation of the Lakers adding Pau Gasol.

And whether or not the no. of changes is an issue, we have to ask the anti-rotationists. Because according to the anti-rotationists the "cohesion", "fluency", "familiarity" is affected if even one player doesn't play one game... and they were also talking about the "accumulative effects" and I also remember hearing a word along the line of "domino effect" or some sort... but now big mick explains that the no. of changes is not the only issue... which is correct but which all makes the definition of what is acceptable "rotation" very broad...

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:37 am

maguskwt wrote:... but now big mick explains that the no. of changes is not the only issue... which is correct but which all makes the definition of what is acceptable "rotation" very broad...

It's not a question of "now" explaining it, it's been my position all along because it's absolutely as obvious as the nose on your face. Leaving Gerrard out isn't the same as leaving Riise out.

Similarly, of course changing one player has an effect on cohesion, but it has more of an effect if it's a more important player. It stands to reason. It may have only a small effect, but it has an effect all the same. Footballers are all slightly different. Surely we're not trying to pretend that if we play Riise at left back then change him for Aurelio the next game it has a zero per cent impact on the team? We can argue all day long about how much of an effect it would have, whether or not it would be a positive or a negative but surely we won't argue that there is an effect?

Look, I really don't want to get bogged down on the arguments of this season because they've been done to death. Nor do I want to get bogged down in a statistical analysis of the current rate of rotation, or "rotation factor" as Conn called it

. Given the fact that the manager himself has said that he is rotating less, and the fact that we are returning to a core eleven time after time I would have thought that the fact he is currently rotating less would be beyond dispute but there you go. It's incredible to me that people want to dispute it but thats up to them. Whatever anyway, that isn't the point of the thread, if people don't think he is reducing his rotation "Rafa style" or any other kind of style and is infact lying, so be it.

The question was and is though, what would you like to see next season? Would you like to see a similar number of changes to the team, the formation and the positions which players play in as there were at the start of this season? Would you like to see more perhaps? Less? Will it make any difference? Can we expect a title challenge?

by **maguskwt** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:55 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:... but now big mick explains that the no. of changes is not the only issue... which is correct but which all makes the definition of what is acceptable "rotation" very broad...

It's not a question of "now" explaining it, it's been my position all along because it's absolutely as obvious as the nose on your face. Leaving Gerrard out isn't the same as leaving Riise out.

Similarly, of course changing one player has an effect on cohesion, but it has more of an effect if it's a more important player. It stands to reason. It may have only a small effect, but it has an effect all the same. Footballers are all slightly different. Surely we're not trying to pretend that if we play Riise at left back then change him for Aurelio the next game it has a zero per cent impact on the team? We can argue all day long about how much of an effect it would have, whether or not it would be a positive or a negative but surely we won't argue that there is an effect?

Look, I really don't want to get bogged down on the arguments of this season because they've been done to death. Nor do I want to get bogged down in a statistical analysis of the current rate of rotation, or "rotation factor" as Conn called it . Given the fact that the manager himself has said that he is rotating less, and the fact that we are returning to a core eleven time after time I would have thought that the fact he is currently rotating less would be beyond dispute but there you go. It's incredible to me that people want to dispute it but thats up to them. Whatever anyway, that isn't the point of the thread, if people don't think he is reducing his rotation "Rafa style" or any other kind of style and is infact lying, so be it.

The question was and is though, what would you like to see next season? Would you like to see a similar number of changes to the team, the formation and the positions which players play in as there were at the start of this season? Would you like to see more perhaps? Less? Will it make any difference? Can we expect a title challenge?

well then why create a thread with the title "rotation" and not "rotation and tactics for next season?" :rasp

by **club_Levis** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:40 am

Yari7 wrote:I ask, is Rotation to blame for the por run we had in January?

To a certain extent it is to blame.It has since proved that we dont have players good enough to rotate Torres, Gerrard and Reina. Any forceful attempt on that is disastrous.That is why if any of the above is to get injured ( God forbid) we will be in trouble.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:23 am

Anyway on the topic, if we get another 1-2 class players in the summer

Kin ell, thats becoming something of a cliche with Liverpool supporters, as is the 'next year we'll be ready to challenge'

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:27 am

Rotation is not the only factor which have caused this season to be dissapointing..... but it is a significant one.

To illustrate, lets take a look at how much rotation has occurred.

Throughout the season, Rafa has rotated an average of 4.7 players per match.
We went on 2 winning streaks to date.... During each of these periods, the number of players rotated were significantly less than the average.

1. During the 1st winning streak (Besiktas, Fulham, Newcastle, Porto, Bolton), we rotated an average of 3.6 players per match. (23% less rotation)
2. During the 2nd winning streak (Inter Milan, Middlesborough, Bolton, West Ham, Newcastle, Inter Milan again), we rotated an average of 3 players per match (36% less rotation)

1 winning streak supporting the data may be coincidental but 2? Starts to stretch the realms of probability for me.

And this is just general rotation and not even talking about the spine of the club that most of the anti-rotationers worry about.

Yes, I do agree that other factors do come into the equation but the data shows that we win more games when we rotate less. Whether that rotation is forced through injuries or suspension or what have you is really irrelevant to the question "Is rotation a detriment to the results?".....

The numbers would seem to indicate that it is..... but as Leon puts it, there are lies, d@mn lies and statistics.... so intepret the numbers as you will.

by **bigmick** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:55 am

ConnO'var wrote:Yes, I do agree that other factors do come into the equation but the data shows that we win more games when we rotate less.

Conn to be fair I'm absolutely certain that somebody will be able to produce an analysis which disproves your point. That's why I'm really trying to move the thing on to next season and what people are hoping for.

If as Rafa is telling us he is actually rotating less at the moment, do people hope he starts next season in a similar fashion or don't they care? If we do sign the much vaunted "two more absolute top class players" will people be hoping we try and field a more settled team, or will they be happy to go for a similar level of rotation which we saw at the start of this season, safe in the knowledge that the more talented players will make it work?

With Chelsea now five points off the top with a game in hand, despite huge injury problems and losing some of their best players to the African Nations Cup, do people still think that we weren't ever good enough to launch a challenge? This is kind oif where this threads at I think, what do you hope the manager will do visa vis team selection next season, regardless of what you think about the way he has conducted the campaign this time around.

by **kazza** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:04 am

redtrader74 wrote:Some 'fans' even bemoan the victory yesterday because it means Rafa is still here.

That is not a surprise as some would rather be proved correct so as to somehow make themselves more clever or more important. Quite funny really (in a sad way).

"Fans" out there with no experience, no connection to the subject at hand, don't have the full details (ie who is depressed or not feeling sharp) but yet believe they know better because they like to hear their own opinion. Wow!

For fans to be hoping we fail in the CL so as to say Raffa is sh1t even though every team in the world would want Raffa as manager is ridiculous.

In 05 we were perceived as lucky to win the CL. Last year we should have won it but were unlucky not too. This year I believe we are favourites (surely that is improvement) and whether we win it or not I feel proud to be a Liverpool supporter as all the other teams fear us (yes including Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea). I cannot understand how "true fans" do not feel the same pride.

Too many people on this forum are not honest with their opinion and would say any old sh1t to seem cleaver.

Get a grip people, coaching kids or playing Sunday league football does not make you clever. I am sure that if you went to Raffa's house to fix his plumming he will not tell you how to turn a wrench.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:37 am

bigmick wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:Yes, I do agree that other factors do come into the equation but the data shows that we win more games when we rotate less.

Conn to be fair I'm absolutely certain that somebody will be able to produce an analysis which disproves your point. That's why I'm really trying to move the thing on to next season and what people are hoping for.

If as Rafa is telling us he is actually rotating less at the moment, do people hope he starts next season in a similar fashion or don't they care? If we do sign the much vaunted "two more absolute top class players" will people be hoping we try and field a more settled team, or will they be happy to go for a similar level of rotation which we saw at the start of this season, safe in the knowledge that the more talented players will make it work?

With Chelsea now five points off the top with a game in hand, despite huge injury problems and losing some of their best players to the African Nations Cup, do people still think that we weren't ever good enough to launch a challenge? This is kind oif where this threads at I think, what do you hope the manager will do visa vis team selection next season, regardless of what you think about the way he has conducted the campaign this time around.

Sorry mick.... I misunderstood the thread intent.
To answer your question....

My hopes for the next season as far as rotation is concerned are fairly straightforward. I guess I've made it known in previous posts that I'm not a big fan of Rafa for several reasons...

1. I think he sets us up to be too defensive and gives way too much respect to the opposition instead of trusting in the strengths and competencies of our own squad.

2. IMO he's been too stubborn and inflexible to change a philosophy that I feel will never win us the the league... ie rotation.

3. He's apparrent inability to get us to play with passion and treats players as basically chess pieces on his tactical board... failing to take into account the emotional and psycological aspect of the game. Plus honestly, I'm no longer a believer in his much vaunted tactical abilities. In all 3 finals we've played under his guidance, we've gotten it tactically wrong imo.

But to be fair, things look to have turned a corner the last few weeks and I am much heartened to hear him talk about the need to rotate less though he does qualify that with a "since we're only competing in 2 competitions".

I hope that we will procure 2 more world beaters down the flanks and 1 more striker, as I think that the squad is not that far away. If we can beat Europe's best how far off can we be?

As such, if Rafa doeas adopt a more "sensible" (IMO) appoach to rotation and ceases to be inflexible in his philosophy, then I agree that he merits another season at the helm. We do owe him that much I feel.

If he can't (and I don't think he can... he seems too set in his ways), then I think that at the end of the season, it's time for us to part company and move on.

Harsh, I know... but that's how I feel.

I'm not claiming to know more about footbal than a man who's been intimately involved in the game for almost all of his adult life... but neither does that mean that I'm a lemming... I cannot just blindly follow a system that I have no faith in. As such, it is my contention (my opinion only), that for the good of Liverpool Football Club, we have to abandon rotation and if needs be, bid adieu to Rafa.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:59 am

last time I checked, tactics were needed in every game just finals, and we have been to 4 by the way.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:34 pm

Well, I'll state the obvious bit first: I want to see us turn the most of the draws we've seen this season into wins next season. We've lost fewer matches than the Mancs but have racked up 11 draws to date. Turn most of those into wins and, all other things being equal, we'll challenge for the title.

So, the tricky question becomes, what's caused all the draws and how do we fix that problem? The main contenders for an explanation seem to be:

1) Lack of cohesion due to rotation Rafa-style
2) Squad not quite good enough (need some additional attacking quality)
3) Players not motivated properly (lack of killer instinct)
4) Injuries
5) Off-field distractions
6) Too much focus on the Champions League

Well, what's "as obvious as the nose on my face" to me is that all of the above have played some role in the points we've dropped this season. It follows that all of them need to be addressed to some degree...which is of course another way of saying (again) that it's not just about rotation.

Of the above list, there's nothing much that can be done about #4, so let's focus on the rest. Hopefully #5 will not be a factor come next season and hopefully its resolution will address problem #2 during this summer's transfer window (provided Rafa spends the money well, like he did with Torres and Mascherano).

That leaves rotation (#1), player motivation (#3) and CL emphasis (#6) in Rafa's hands to address. Personally, I'm very comfortable with his current approach to rotation and hope he sticks with it. I think we are seeing greater team cohesion at the moment and I think the competition for places is currently quite healthy (except in a few chronic positions). On player motivation, perhaps an assistant will help somewhat--although I'm not as convinced as some that Pako was the master-motivator and Rafa's the aloof tactician. I also think motivation comes from the players themselves, from top quality competitors like Gerrard, Torres, Carragher, Masch and Reina, who set the tone with their passion and skill. And, of course, winning is a habit that provides the greatest motivation (as we're seeing) so we need to get out of the blocks quickly next year, get on a sustained winning run and reap the rewards. In a nutshell, then, I think that the manager can only motivate a team so much and then it's in their own hands.

And, as for the balance with the CL, I don't think there's much wrong in Rafa's approach to be honest. We've actually done much better this year in getting results both before and after Europe and I think that will continue as the squad improves. Yes, he'll rest players with a view to the European match on the horizon but--since Portsmouth--he hasn't done that with Gerrard, Torres or Carragher (before anyone brings up Reading, they all started). Add more quality to the team this summer (#2) and we'll be in better shape to keep results ticking over in the league whilst also saving something for the European campaign. Because, bottom line, we want and need to do well in both competitions. Rafa cares about them both and so do the vast majority of supporters and that means that, sometimes, you need to take some risks with team selection. (And that goes in both directions, as Rafa proved with the Marseille match at Anfield, where he played some squad players in what should have been a fairly straightforward home match against limited opposition).

It's fine margins that have led to draws instead of wins this season and, now that we're showing what we're capable of again, I don't think radical surgery is required...including the most radical surgery of all: replacing the manager.

by **stmichael** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:44 pm

Sky was a complete joke the other night. Instead of just praising us, that tw@t Keys, along with his puppets Redknapp and Shreeves still couldn't resist sticking the boot in. Every time Torres scores they keep going on about "would it be more if he played him regularly?". I mean f#ck off, he's barely missed a game when he's fit.

Apart from when injured, I think he missed the CL qualifiers, a couple of league cup and FA Cup games and hasn't started 3 league games. All of which he came on in including the Fulham game after injury and he scored in that one.

That c#nt Shreeves tried to get Rafa to say Torres would definitely play in every game from now on. As if he's going to tell an insignificant ar$ehole like Shreeves who he's going to pick and when.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:48 pm

JoeTerp wrote:last time I checked, tactics were needed in every game just finals, and we have been to 4 by the way.

You're right of course Joe....

And in the League Cup final against Chelsea, Rafa got it spot on.... Tactically, we were better on the day.

I stand corrected, mate.

Liverpool FC Forum

Rotation, - The 2008/09 season question.

Who is online