Rotation next season - Not again

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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:36 pm

bigmick wrote:I think it's only fair that those of us who have slagged off the rotation front up when we get a result after some tinkering. FWIW I thought it was largely sensible (I guess it's easy to say that when we've won) and we were aided by a poor Sunderland team. The same back four played for 80% of the game (admittedly due to Hyppia's injury), and we had Sissoko as a straight swap for the injured Gerrard. Babbel came in for Riise (an unnecessary fiddle in my opinion) and Voronin came in for Kuyt (I would personally have gone with Crouch but no matter, Voronin did well).

All in all it didn't disrupt us massively if I'm honest. Once Gerrard doesn't play we look like a completely different team anyway in my opinion, so Voronin for Kuyt was hardly going to make much difference. As I said my only concern would have been the unnecessary rotation of Riise and Babbel but no matter, we got the win. I do hope though, that it doesn't encourage Rafa into his more outlandish and mind boggling mode. We have started well with sensible selections, what we don't need now is Babbel on his own up front with an upended Christmas tree midfield, three at the back with Gerrard wide-left and Lee Peltier playing as a sweeper. Perhaps rafa could get his silliness out of his system against Toulouse, before reverting to any ten from the eleven of Reina, Finnan, Agger, Hyppia (assuming Carraghers not fit), Arbeloa, Pennant, Alonso, Gerrard, Riise, Kuyt and Torres. It's a bit boring but it's currently near to our best team and perhaps we should give the blokes chance to get to know each other a bit.

Fair dos, mate, for acknowledging that Rafa largely got the rotation right this week.  On the Babel selection, I would suggest that context matters, though.  Midweek friendlies and the related travel will have no doubt had an affect on some players' fitness and preparation.  Riise played the full 90 in Norway whereas Babel was only a 2nd-half sub in Switzerland so that might have influenced Rafa's decision.  Granted, Riise's a workhorse and probably could have played without much trouble, so fitness may not be the whole story. 

I think tactics were part of the equation as well.  Without Gerrard, Rafa may have felt we needed more creativity in other areas of midfield to compensate.  After all, when was the last time we've seen us line up with two out-and-out wingers?  I think Rafa wanted two tricky wingers pushing up in support of the two pacey forwards, with Alonso pulling the strings and Momo careening about, filling gaps left by the wingers streaming forward.

The point is, Rafa can make such tactical switches this season without sacrificing the overall quality of the side.  I've always felt that there was a method to his rotation 'madness' (i.e. I don't agree with your implied view that Rafa rotates capriciously) but that he did not have the personnel to really make it work seamlessly (so he's stubborn, I'll grant you!).  Now, he has the squad to make it work.  Crucially, though, I think he's got a firmer sense of his best 11 (which includes Torres up top and Gerrard in the middle, as the noticeable differences from last year) and so we'll actually see less radical chopping and changing this season.
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Postby Scottbot » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:06 pm

Absolutely seething after the Pompey game today. I normally keep my gob shut on rotation (not even sure i've posted in this thread) and have pretty much accepted it BUT i can't remember sitting through a game so angry as i was today. Not sure why i'm so pis.s.ed, probably because we are top for the first time in years hence this game became so much bigger. Win it and we're still top with Birmingham and Wigan to come BUT NO. Team selection today was tantamount to going to war and then sending out soldiers with no bullets. After Chelsea, mancs, Arsenal and Everton this is our toughest away of the season, surely a time to play your best side? rest the buggers when Birmingham come into town surely? BUT NO. Just picture Harry Redknapp and the Pompey dressing room....'what? No Gerrard? No Torres? No Babel?'.....'GET IN!'. Talk about handing the initiative over to the home side, by the time those three made it on to the pitch it was too late not to mention the fact we turned into a Sunday Under-12 long ball side as soon as Torres laced his boots up.

Only bright note is the fact we got out of there with a draw thanks to Pepe and some woeful finishing from Utaka and Muntari. Benitez missed a BIG BIG opportunity to keep this side rolling on. The longer they stayed top the more confidence that would have bred but unfortunately we will be sitting 2nd or 3rd by Monday. Take the players out of cotton wool Rafa, i'm sure poor little Torres and poor little Stevie could have managed another game on the back of the international program and then rested up for the next home game or Porto on Tuesday night. Think i'm gonna go on a run to try an calm down.

If you think you can defend that team selection today please have a go.

On a side note, it's difficult for me to say it as a Southampton lad but is there a better set of fans week in week out than the Pompey lot?
Last edited by Scottbot on Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ciggy » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:56 pm

Tinkerbell strikes again.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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Postby stmichael » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:00 pm

Making changes has nothing to do with the lack of desire or inability to pass the ball to a team mate. You can't keep using the rotation excuse every time we have a bad result. That team was more than good enough to beat Pompey.
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Postby Ciggy » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:04 pm

stmichael wrote:Making changes has nothing to do with the lack of desire or inability to pass the ball to a team mate. You can't keep using the rotation excuse every time we have a bad result. That team was more than good enough to beat Pompey.

Not really Crouch and Voronin where never going to get much change out of Pompeys yard dogs today.

Should have played our best team and then took off tired players not back to front.
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Postby Bad Bob » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:55 pm

Well, I guess it depends whether you believe that the on-the-pitch exertions plus the travel associated with international friendlies (not to mention the lack of prep time for games upon return) has a major impact or not.  IMHO, it does make a significant difference and that Rafa had little choice but to rest some of his key players for this one.  Consider the options in three areas of the pitch:

Central Midfield
Gerrard is coming back from a sizeable injury lay-off and was used for 71 and 90+ minutes respectively already in the space of the past week.  I think it's reasonable to think he might be a bit jaded by this point.  In contrast, both Sissoko and Alonso were fresh, while Mascherano was never going to play after traveling to fecking Australia for a Tuesday friendly!!!  I think Rafa called this one right.

Out Wide
2) Babel played all 180+ minutes of his country's qualifiers and had a long haul flight back from Albania following Wednesday's match.  Again, I think it made sense to start him on the bench, particularly since Pennant didn't leave Melwood and Benayoun only played one match--in England--last Saturday.  There's no doubt in my mind that Rafa called this one right.

Up Top
Here things get more debatable.  Based purely on 'freshness' starting Crouch made sense, as he didn't travel abroad and played only 10 minutes in England matches during the week.  Now, arguably Kuyt was as fresh, given that he played 0 international minutes.  But, he did travel Albania on Wednesday and, besides, the Kuyt/Crouch combo is tragically short on pace.  That leaves Voronin, who played 72 minutes in Georgia on Saturday and 30 minutes in Ukraine on Wednesday.  And Torres, who played 57 minutes in Iceland (Sat.) and 90 minutes in Spain (Wed.).  For me, Torres probably could have gotten the nod over Voronin given his youth (quicker recovery) and less arduous travel back to Liverpool.  Plus, his pace would have given Campbell and Distin more problems, I think.  So, Rafa may have mis-called that one.

But, overall, I understand the decisions Rafa made.*  And I think the fact that we had an early kick-off against our most distant opponents following a heavy two weeks of international matches is shambolic, TBH, and I hope the schedule-makers have a long, hard look at themselves.




*Having said that, the subs could have come on a lot sooner for my taste.  We started brightly in the 2nd half but faded very quickly and Gerrard and Torres could have come in around the 55 minute mark, IMO.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:14 pm

*Having said that, the subs could have come on a lot sooner for my taste.  We started brightly in the 2nd half but faded very quickly and Gerrard and Torres could have come in around the 55 minute mark, IMO.


Or maybe started the game and come off when (if) we were winning comfortably. I would rather rest players when we are three nil up than asking them to come on and try and change a game thats slipping away from us.
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Postby Scottbot » Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:32 am

These are professional footballers coming off the back of a long pre-season where they have all trained their nuts off in prep for the new season. I've no doubts they still could have played and performed from the start of the game yesterday and as Saint, Ciggy and others have suggested, do it the other way round, let them start and take them off later. Also it's worth noting that international football is considerably slower paced than the hurly burly of our Premiership and as for the poor lads hhaving to travel all the way across Europe and back it's not like they sit in the cheap seats is it? Business class all the way for them all. As for the 'that team should have been plenty good enough to win the game' line, Pompey's home record against ourselves and the rest of the big four suggests you simply need your best side playing to come away with the 3 points.

It's not me blaming rotation again as usual because i rarely mention it. I was angry yesterday and i'm still smarting this morning.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:06 am

Scottbot wrote:These are professional footballers coming off the back of a long pre-season where they have all trained their nuts off in prep for the new season. I've no doubts they still could have played and performed from the start of the game yesterday and as Saint, Ciggy and others have suggested, do it the other way round, let them start and take them off later. Also it's worth noting that international football is considerably slower paced than the hurly burly of our Premiership and as for the poor lads hhaving to travel all the way across Europe and back it's not like they sit in the cheap seats is it? Business class all the way for them all. As for the 'that team should have been plenty good enough to win the game' line, Pompey's home record against ourselves and the rest of the big four suggests you simply need your best side playing to come away with the 3 points.

It's not me blaming rotation again as usual because i rarely mention it. I was angry yesterday and i'm still smarting this morning.

Good point mate.  :nod
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:53 pm

Scottbot wrote:These are professional footballers coming off the back of a long pre-season where they have all trained their nuts off in prep for the new season. I've no doubts they still could have played and performed from the start of the game yesterday and as Saint, Ciggy and others have suggested, do it the other way round, let them start and take them off later. Also it's worth noting that international football is considerably slower paced than the hurly burly of our Premiership and as for the poor lads hhaving to travel all the way across Europe and back it's not like they sit in the cheap seats is it? Business class all the way for them all. As for the 'that team should have been plenty good enough to win the game' line, Pompey's home record against ourselves and the rest of the big four suggests you simply need your best side playing to come away with the 3 points.

It's not me blaming rotation again as usual because i rarely mention it. I was angry yesterday and i'm still smarting this morning.

Sorry, mate, but I simply don't agree.  Playing 3 games in the space of seven days is taxing for even the most finely tuned athlete.  Especially if they were must win games, as most were for our lads.  Torres, as Sabre tells us, was kicked all over the pitch last week and Gerrard's coming back from a significant injury.  And if you don't think flying back and forth across the continent in the space of a few days takes a physical toll, you're fooling yourself.  Why do we complain when Liverpool have long-haul trips across Europe then?  Why did Rafa change the plan a few years back, from hopping on the plane back right after a match abroad to spending the night?  There must be some physical/mental fatigue issues that that policy was addressing right?
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:15 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Scottbot wrote:These are professional footballers coming off the back of a long pre-season where they have all trained their nuts off in prep for the new season. I've no doubts they still could have played and performed from the start of the game yesterday and as Saint, Ciggy and others have suggested, do it the other way round, let them start and take them off later. Also it's worth noting that international football is considerably slower paced than the hurly burly of our Premiership and as for the poor lads hhaving to travel all the way across Europe and back it's not like they sit in the cheap seats is it? Business class all the way for them all. As for the 'that team should have been plenty good enough to win the game' line, Pompey's home record against ourselves and the rest of the big four suggests you simply need your best side playing to come away with the 3 points.

It's not me blaming rotation again as usual because i rarely mention it. I was angry yesterday and i'm still smarting this morning.

Sorry, mate, but I simply don't agree.  Playing 3 games in the space of seven days is taxing for even the most finely tuned athlete.  Especially if they were must win games, as most were for our lads.  Torres, as Sabre tells us, was kicked all over the pitch last week and Gerrard's coming back from a significant injury.  And if you don't think flying back and forth across the continent in the space of a few days takes a physical toll, you're fooling yourself.  Why do we complain when Liverpool have long-haul trips across Europe then?  Why did Rafa change the plan a few years back, from hopping on the plane back right after a match abroad to spending the night?  There must be some physical/mental fatigue issues that that policy was addressing right?

This is the thing though, two weeks down the line, or next week even we're going to have midweek games. Just like the internationals, and I cant see Rafa resting Torres specially after a CL game midweek for a Prem fixture the following Saturday.

So that argument doesnt really hold up, yes Torres may have taken a knock. Not a strain, not a broken rib, a knock and one that allowed him to come on as a substitute against Pompey. If he was that concerned he wouldnt of been on the bench. Like Saint said he should of started Torres then pulled him off if fatigue set in, but FFS the season has only just started, they cant be that knackered and Torres will certainly take more knocks in the Prem than he will do on international duty.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:08 pm

i agree with Saint's comments about getting them to start and then bring them off when the game is more or less in the bag.
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Postby Scottbot » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Sorry, mate, but I simply don't agree.  Playing 3 games in the space of seven days is taxing for even the most finely tuned athlete. 

But so early in the season, i can't see it's such a problem. How often have we seen big time players play at the weekend, again in mid-week in Europe and again the following weekend? Not that i have the stats but i'm pretty sure it's been done before by players at Chelsea, Arsenal, the mancs and no doubt Liverpool.

What did you (and anyone else) think when you saw that teamsheet yesterday because the first thing i thought was 'fu.c..k....we're gonna struggle here' and that's exactly what happened. Even if we had snuck a 1-0 nil win i swear i would still be on here making the same comments although ofcourse i wouldn't have been nearly as pis.s.ed!
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:25 pm

the team that played last night had no real threat or drive or creativity to penetrate the pompey backline. maybe the players were having a day off.
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:48 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Sorry, mate, but I simply don't agree.  Playing 3 games in the space of seven days is taxing for even the most finely tuned athlete. 

But so early in the season, i can't see it's such a problem. How often have we seen big time players play at the weekend, again in mid-week in Europe and again the following weekend? Not that i have the stats but i'm pretty sure it's been done before by players at Chelsea, Arsenal, the mancs and no doubt Liverpool.

What did you (and anyone else) think when you saw that teamsheet yesterday because the first thing i thought was 'fu.c..k....we're gonna struggle here' and that's exactly what happened. Even if we had snuck a 1-0 nil win i swear i would still be on here making the same comments although ofcourse i wouldn't have been nearly as pis.s.ed!

I hear what you're saying, Scott, but I still think it's quite a bit different when you're traveling with your club than when the entire squad is scattered around the planet (Masch in Australia FFS!) and coming back together hours before heading south for a league match.  All I'm saying was that it was a factor in the decision making yesterday and rightly so.  For what it's worth, I still would have risked Torres yesterday and had Gerrard and Babel start on the bench.
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