Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:36 pm

It depends massively on our activity in the transfer market this summer. If we can get the right quality players in, I've absolutely no doubt he'll play those players more often than not if they're performing, as he is now doing with Torres, and as with Mascherano. We don't have complete players in the wide areas, have only one up top, and at left back we're lacking also. As such, these positions get rotated more often. Incomplete players aren't as a adaptable, and are more inconsistent as a consequence. The players I'm thinking of are; Pennant, Benayoun, Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin (incomplete in every way), Kewell, Babel, Riise and Aurelio. If we had a more complete natural left winger, example - Vicente, David Silva, a solid left back with ability - hopefully Insua, and either i) A second forward or ii) A top quality right winger, then I think you'd see that 2-3 player rotational average come to fruition (it's not miles off at the moment ffs). I don't think you'd see many strange formations if we had the right quality, it's the players I mentioned above that lead to indecision, inconsistency and an inability to finish teams off IMO.

All the factors mentioned by Bob re focus and concentrtion are equally as important, we've been uncharacteristically lacking in focus from set pieces at times, and that in particular has cost us.

by **taff** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:38 pm

So we want no rotation and to compete in the CL because we need the money but also who cares about the league cup and the FA cup, the same people who criticise rotation go mental if we lose in the domestic cup competitions.

There are a number of reasons for this season, losing Agger, the form of Finan and Riise, Kuyt and Crouch. I expect some additions in the summer.

Rafa for some reason attracts polarised views from us and non LFC fans. Bigmick wants him out even if he wins the champions league as an example, but Wenger who hasnt won anything in the same period as Rafa has been in the PL is lauded as a great manager. Look at his history of achievement. I agree but then you must acknowledge the Spanish titles of Rafa. He is a younger manager so wont have as much history of achievement but so far in his career hasnt been that bad.

I think he builds every year, look at the reserves and how the team has improved and look now at the spine of the team we have true world class players in Reina, Mash, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres. I also think he will be ruthless with players who have not performed this season.

Rotation can work just ask Ferguson but we need either the patience as we build or a cash boost and not funds from TV rights or a CL final

by **maguskwt** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:55 pm

bigmick wrote:Those who bemoaned the over-rotation have seen the manager pledging to reduce the changes as the season has gone on due to us "only being involved in two competitions" and reduce it he has.

Has he though? I remember the in-depth discussion early in the season where rafa was rotating 2-3 players for league games and CL (mostly our wingers and our second striker) and 4-5 players when playing the league cup and FA cup. now we're not playing the league cup and FA cup so are we rotating less? the answer is obvious. While we're playing a settled formation of 4-2-3-1, rafa's been interchanging our CB's, RB's and one of our holding midfielders and even our right winger... and somehow, because he said he'll be rotating less and also because our fortunes have changed, most-anti rotationers seem to think that rafa's seen the light and that's why our results were better... I for one, like sabre, don't think that rotation is fully responsible for all of this. Yes, I think that rafa had it wrong a few times this season like Bob said, playing sissoko as an advanced midfielder and even playing crouch on the right side... but these are tactical and formation errors not rotation...

For me I would like to see rafa pick a more settled and strongest formation based on our available players like he's doing now with 4-2-3-1. If he does that then rotation is still possible like he's doing now anyway... and it will have a more positive effect than negative throughout the season... maybe perhaps then they will say rafa's resting his players instead of rotating...

oh and mick the words "rafa style" and "in it's purest form at least" are your escape insurance, aren't they

by **Yari7** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:01 pm

taff wrote:Rotation can work just ask Ferguson but we need either the patience as we build or a cash boost and not funds from TV rights or a CL final

Chelsea and Man utd have the perfect squads for rotation. Liverpools squad is no where near as strong enough as Chelsea and Man Utd.

We have a core of world class players like Carra, Mash, Alonso, Gerrard, Torres. Hopefully Babel can develop into an impact player next season as he has shown good potential.

I think we must give Rafa team to build and develop a team.

Look at how Arsenal have struggled for the past 3 years and no one has been calling for the head of Arsene Wenger, and in that time, he built a new team who are now top of the league.

I think we must give Rafa time. Under him, we have matured into one of the best teams in Europe and hopefully with a few years we will be champions in the league if not next year.

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:02 pm

maguskwt wrote:oh and mick the words "rafa style" and "in it's purest form at least" are your escape insurance, aren't they

Not at all. "Rafa style' was a phrase that I simply had to bring into the debate some time back because I was getting tired of saying, time and time again, that NOBODY IS SAYING YOU SHOULD PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Equally, I KNOW MANCHESTER UNITED ROTATE PLAYERS TOO. What it is magus, is a question of degree. Hence "Rafa style".

This also applies re your contesting of the number of changes and whether or not there has been a reduction, and would similarly apply to Sabre's observation as well. I've long attested (and in the unlikely event that you can be bothered to read through the rotation thread you'll see it in there) that's it's not just about numerical changes to the team, though obviously that is a factor. There is obviously a huge difference between "resting" Torres, or "resting" Gerrard (or indeed both in one match) and doing a similar thing with say Pennant and Arbeloa. That's not to say I agree with "resting" Pennant and Arbeloa, but clearly it would have less of a bearing on us winnign a football match.

Now Sabre talked about the rotations for the Milan game, and there were a couple. Lucas came in for Alonso, but we had no choice and it was a straight swap in the same system. Kuyt and Babel returned into the positions they have played in for the last half dozen games after their utterly pointless "resting" against Newcastle, while Carragher playing fullback was the only contentious choice. To be honest though, whether you agree with the policy or not, or indeed whether you think it makes any difference or not, I think it would be absolutely impossible to deny that the manager has changed the team less during the last five or six weeks. He has ultimately returned to broadly the same team time after time, he's even said so himself so the debate isn't really about whether such a reduction is actually taking place, it's about whether he will sustain it next season.

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:15 pm

Just a couple oif things which Rafa has reportedly said recently which made me sit up and take notice (and I only read them on here, please don't ask me for the HP). Firstly this idea that if you play with less rotation, the players in the team work harder to stay in it. Now that is an age old argument of the anti-rotationalist. He hasn't got onto rhythm and cohesion yet, but it's not a mile away. This is the kind of thing which makes me think that possibly/hope to God he might be willing to just give a slightly more conventional method a try next season.

The other one was about not rotating as much because we are only involved in two competitions. It struck me as being odd at the time and I can't really get my head around it. I'm all for it mind, especially as the third round of the FA Cup doesn't rear it's ugly head until the season is over four months old, and the Carling Cup is widely accepted as a competition in which you play your kids anyway. Could we about to see a Manchester United style campaign? (I'm assuming a non rotationalist Wenger style one is a bridge too far). Many people have used man Utd as an example of rotation being successful over the last few weeks and they certainly have made some changes to the team. My impression was though at the start of the season when they had a blip, (only the one I, maybe two) they went on a run of 1-0 wins playing stuttering football but crucially playing PRACTICALLY the same team in every single game. The feeling was they were playing themselves into form, establishing some momentum etc etc. Arsenal of course went for a similar approach. Out of the blocks ands flying while other "rested" around them.

Whichever and wherever though, I don't and didn't want this thread to be raking over this season and seasons past, there's other threads for that. My question was at the start of the thread and remains now, if Rafa gets another go next season (and I think he will) do you expect we will see similar levels of early season rotation, and do you think we should?

by **Yari7** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:24 pm

bigmick wrote:My question was at the start of the thread and remains now, if Rafa gets another go next season (and I think he will) do you expect we will see similar levels of early season rotation, and do you think we should?

I think we will still see some rotation. Rafa was rotating most at the begining of the season and we had a strong start to the season up until we lost to Reading in November if I rememeber correctly.

I just think he could rotate still but make less changes from game to game. Maybe 3 changes max between games.

And we should try to bury games earlier and then give a rest to players like Gerrard and Torres with 20-30 minutes to go.

But unless Rafa sees his rotation policy as a a failure, he will return to it next season but I can see him toning it down a little.

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:32 pm

Certainly Leiva playing is as a result of having no other option, I agree it's not rotation per se.

To understand each other better (we posters), we'd have to discuss before rotation, whether we think a certain starting eleven in our squad is the best for every game, no matter the opposition.

If you are of this school of thought, you might find that

-------------Reina

Finnan Carra Agger F.Aurelio

Gerrard Alonso Mascherano Kewell (when fit)

---------- Torres Crouch

Is the best starting eleven for instance, and you'd think that no matter you play against Portsmouth, Internazionale, an advanced defence, a deep one, a formation, another, that's the starting eleven to stick to if the injuries allow it.

On the other hand, you might be of another school of thought. You might think that for certain oppositions, certain KIND of players are more suitable for some positions. Then you look at your squad and you select Alonso sometimes for some oppositions, or Mascherano. Thus, it's pointless to keep track of how many changes there are being because actually each game has a best possible starting eleven.

I suspect that most people that considers themselves antirotationist are in the first school of thought, and that's where our views differ more. I suspect aswell that as long as the fav players are in a team, people do not care much about the other changes that are made.

Most of the changes that Rafa does are not rotation per se. Most of them are forced, like Leiva's case, Precaution when recovering from injury, or just team selections that are more suitable for a game. Only a few times you have rotation per se. And when there's 4 changes and a Torres dissapear, then we talk about madness.

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:05 am

Sorry Mick but i couldnt resist you could make this into a mini series :laugh:

Mind you you could go the whole hog and turn it into an epic.

The Rotation Factor

Director BigMick

Coming to a cinama near you.

Hope no offence is taken Mick but as i said couldnt resist :laugh:

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:11 am

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:So Niall, why not play reserves for the European Cup and concentrate solely on the league?

Like he did against Marseille at home and got roasted for it?

reserves against Marseille? Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Aurellio, Gerrard, Benayoun, Crouch and Torres all started. Leto played, as did Sissoko. Riise and Kuyt both came on (along with Voronin) so it's hardly a team full of reserves is it

by **redtrader74** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:47 am

taff wrote:So we want no rotation and to compete in the CL because we need the money but also who cares about the league cup and the FA cup, the same people who criticise rotation go mental if we lose in the domestic cup competitions.

There are a number of reasons for this season, losing Agger, the form of Finan and Riise, Kuyt and Crouch. I expect some additions in the summer.

Rafa for some reason attracts polarised views from us and non LFC fans. Bigmick wants him out even if he wins the champions league as an example, but Wenger who hasnt won anything in the same period as Rafa has been in the PL is lauded as a great manager. Look at his history of achievement. I agree but then you must acknowledge the Spanish titles of Rafa. He is a younger manager so wont have as much history of achievement but so far in his career hasnt been that bad.

I think he builds every year, look at the reserves and how the team has improved and look now at the spine of the team we have true world class players in Reina, Mash, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres. I also think he will be ruthless with players who have not performed this season.

Rotation can work just ask Ferguson but we need either the patience as we build or a cash boost and not funds from TV rights or a CL final

Excellent post. ^

Micks not the only one, i never thought i'd hear genuine LFC supporters wanting to sack a manager after winning any trophy, least of all if we were to win the CL again. Some 'fans' even bemoan the victory yesterday because it means Rafa is still here.

There is very little patience, and even less understanding of the circumstances and difficulties of the managers job.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:11 am

Anyway on the topic, if we get another 1-2 class players in the summer, at the level of our best players, then i expect a little less rotation, because it will mean more players that are adaptable to all circumstances, and therefore less need to change players for tactical needs. In any case rotation has never really been the problem, problems have been caused with strange formations and players played out of position, and this must have a greater effect on cohesion, as the players are in unfamiliar roles, and roles (IMO), that they are not competent in, (Crouch on the wing springs to mind), whereas pure rotation will replace a right midfielder with a right midfielder.

I don't really like 'if this' or 'if that', but i will on this occassion, the draws we had this season have been overwhelmingly in games we controlled, bar Arsenal maybe, and to have held on in just 4 of them would mean us being right in the title challenge. We pretty much deserved to win most of the draws, and had we another matchwinner in the side i think we would have, because other than SG, Torres and maybe Babel one day, we are very limited, and if either is injured, or out of form, then we are buggered and have been.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:17 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:So Niall, why not play reserves for the European Cup and concentrate solely on the league?

Like he did against Marseille at home and got roasted for it?

reserves against Marseille? Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Aurellio, Gerrard, Benayoun, Crouch and Torres all started. Leto played, as did Sissoko. Riise and Kuyt both came on (along with Voronin) so it's hardly a team full of reserves is it

Who exactly do you consider reserves then if not Leto, Sissoko and Benayoun? One's barely played a game since, one's been sold and one only plays around once every three matches or so.

Hell, you could make a strong case that Crouch is a reserve this year--many have, in fact.

But, that's not really my point. My point is that Rafa played what many at the time considered to be a very weak team (read the match thread) and was roundly criticized for it. Same thing that happens whenever we played a weakened side in the domestic cups and struggle. A lot of people talk a good game about prioritizing the league but, when push comes to shove, plenty of them still give Rafa tons of stick when he uses the whole squad for cup ties--even if he's doing so in order to prioritize the league, like he was doing during the early part of the group stage.

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:05 am

against Marseillie, leto was given a chance, he had been showing some skill on the left, I am not sure if Kewell was back by then, I don't think he was, pennant was unavailable on the right so he played yossi there and Leto is more of a natural midfielder than Babel. At the time momo was a viable option in CM I think he had just scored against sunderland right? Yossi is not a reserve, yes he isn't included in this recent team of small changes but he has 2 hat tricks for us this year.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:13 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:oh and mick the words "rafa style" and "in it's purest form at least" are your escape insurance, aren't they

Not at all. "Rafa style' was a phrase that I simply had to bring into the debate some time back because I was getting tired of saying, time and time again, that NOBODY IS SAYING YOU SHOULD PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME. Equally, I KNOW MANCHESTER UNITED ROTATE PLAYERS TOO. What it is magus, is a question of degree. Hence "Rafa style".

This also applies re your contesting of the number of changes and whether or not there has been a reduction, and would similarly apply to Sabre's observation as well. I've long attested (and in the unlikely event that you can be bothered to read through the rotation thread you'll see it in there) that's it's not just about numerical changes to the team, though obviously that is a factor. There is obviously a huge difference between "resting" Torres, or "resting" Gerrard (or indeed both in one match) and doing a similar thing with say Pennant and Arbeloa. That's not to say I agree with "resting" Pennant and Arbeloa, but clearly it would have less of a bearing on us winnign a football match.

Now Sabre talked about the rotations for the Milan game, and there were a couple. Lucas came in for Alonso, but we had no choice and it was a straight swap in the same system. Kuyt and Babel returned into the positions they have played in for the last half dozen games after their utterly pointless "resting" against Newcastle, while Carragher playing fullback was the only contentious choice. To be honest though, whether you agree with the policy or not, or indeed whether you think it makes any difference or not, I think it would be absolutely impossible to deny that the manager has changed the team less during the last five or six weeks. He has ultimately returned to broadly the same team time after time, he's even said so himself so the debate isn't really about whether such a reduction is actually taking place, it's about whether he will sustain it next season.

fair enough Mick... it just seems that the definition of a rotation not "rafa style" seems to be very broad. To be clearer on this matter, here are the following changes rafa did since the barnsley debacle:

Liverpool 1 – Barnsley 2

Itandje
Hyppia
Finnan
Riise
Alonso
Benayoun
Leiva
Crouch
Kuyt
Babel

Liverpool 2 – Milan 0

Reina
Carragher
Hyppia
Finnan
Aurelio
Gerrard
Babel
Mascherano
Leiva
Torres
Kuyt

6 Changes: Torres, Mascherano, Babel, Gerrard, Aurelio, Carra

Liverpool 3 – Boro 2

Reina
Hyppia
Finnan
Aurelio
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Mascherano
Leiva
Kuyt
Torres
Babel

1 Change: Arbeloa

Bolton 1 – Liverpool 3

Reina
Carragher
Hyypia
Aurelio
Skrtel
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Kuyt
Torres
Babel

3 Changes: Alonso, Skrtel, Carragher

Liverpool 4 – West Ham 0

Reina
Carragher
Arbeloa
Skrtel
Gerrard
Riise
Alonso
Mascherano
Kuyt
Torres
Babel

2 Changes: Arbeloa, Riise

Liverpool 3 – Newcastle 0

Reina
Carragher
Arbeloa
Skrtel
Gerrard
Riise
Pennant
Alonso
Benayoun
Leiva
Torres

3 Changes: Pennant, Benayoun, Leiva

Inter Milan 0 – Liverpool 1

Reina
Carragher
Hyppia
Aurelio
Skrtel
Gerrard
Babel
Mascherano
Leiva
Torres
Kuyt

5 Changes: Kuyt, Mascherano, Babel, Aurelio, Hyppia

So is this considered rotation 'rafa style' to you or not? IMO he's been doing this kind of rotation all season except for a few questionable game selections. Hence, I think that "rotation" is not the main reason that ruined our chances this season. At the end of the day what we deem acceptable "rotation" might not be too far off... it becomes a matter of perspective... if you're happy with this kind of "rotation" then I'm happy with this kind of "resting"...

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