Liverpool FC Forum

by **EddieC** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:39 am

One word describes this game for me, and that is lucky. Actually scrap that it's two words, fucking lucky.

I have been a firm backer of Rafa over recent weeks when he has come under fire, but todays decisions from the gaffer just have no rational explanation. He took off the two main attacking threats on the pith, Gerrard & Benayoun, whilst leaving on Mascherano & Sissoko who don't really offer a lot going forward. I can understand that they may have been tired from the internationals, but you make those sort of changes when you're winning, not chasing a win in a derby match. The decision to wait until the 87th minute to bring on Pennant also left me dumbfounded, what real difference could he make at that point? We got off the hook here big time, and I just hope Rafa learns from mistakes made & doesn't repeat them.

As for the players themselves, in goal Reina didn't really have a lot to do. He didn't have a chance with the own goal, but apart from one dodgy punch near the end he got everything else pretty much right. Carragher I have to admit was a very lucky lad, could easily have conceded a penalty at the end (I don't think it was but I've seen them given) and could well have picked up two yellows for his constant arguing if it had been a harsher ref, in my eyes Gerrard should have been doing more as captain to stop him. Hyypia was desperately unlucky with the own goal, it was one of those ones that could've gone absolutely anywhere, and apart from that had a very good game. His aerial prescence certainly saved our skins more than once or twice at the back and showed for me why he's still an important member of our squad. Finnan as ever was Mr reliable, a couple of brilliant saving challenges and on current form he also seems to be our best crosser of the ball. The weak link in the defence for me was Riise, and why the hell he played the full 90 minutes I don't know. His passing was poor, and for the goal he should have been closing down a lot quicker. There were two incidents that really stood out for me though, firstly after about 10 minutes when Hyypia conceded a free kick in a dangerous position. The Everton player (I think it was Osman) was bursting down the right where Riise should be defending, yet it was Sissoko & Hyypia that were having to cover as Riise was still making his way back from the opposition half. The other incident was at the opther end of the pitch towards the end of the game when we were chasing the win, Kuyt played a through ball that was slightly ahead of him and he made no effort to get on the end of it. The ball was asking a lot of him, but he could've slid in & played it out for a throw instead of letting it roll out for a goal kick, he showed no desire to get to it.

In midfield I think we got better as the game went on, but in the first half we had no thrust from the middle & our wing play was non-existent. Benayoun was the only midfielder to make any sort of impression before the break & we just looked devoid of ideas. Come the second half things improved, thanks in no small part to the fact that Gerrard actually decided to start playing then. He did very well for the penalty, Hibbert was tugging on his shirt almost as far back as the halfway line, but Stevie stayed on his feet until he'd made it into the box. There were memories of Istanbul for me, Gerrard had the same grin on his face as he'd had that night when he finally went down in the box, he knew it was a penalty & I think it was very clever play that won it. I still don't see why Mascherano played, he'd travelled halfway round the world & played 180 mintues of football already this week, and it showed. I can only assume it was due to Alonso not being ready, but I still don't think he should've featured in this game. Sissoko was just Sissoko, we all know what to expect from him now, win the ball back brilliantly then give it away, I really don't think he should play unless partnered with Alonso who seems to be the only one who always makes himself available for the easy ball.

Up front Voronin managed to get every other aspect of his game right apart from the bit that really matters for a striker. He did some great tracking back but that's not his main job, a striker's there to score or create goals andin that he failed miserably. Kuyt faired a little better, whilst not having many clear cut chances himself he created well for others, and fair play for having the bottle to take the first penalty, not easy in such a big game when you haven't scored for a while.

All in all as I said at the start we were lucky today, but it's another three points notched up and we're still in contention. I doubt todays performance will have boosted anyone's confidence much though, and for once I actually put this down to the manager rather than the players as I have in recent weeks.

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:49 am

oh well 3 points is 3 points:D

by **OneHotRed** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:53 am

How I saw the match yesterday in a very brief couple of sentences

Shocking tactics and decisions for the most part yesterday, performance wasnt too bad considering that, should have given away 2 penalties, didnt go for the kill with one man up.

Overall : REALLY REALLY MANIC ABOUT THE WIN :laugh:

Dont really care how we did it yesterday, we beat the blue :censored:

(Cheers mark clatter) which is better than last seasons one loss and one draw.

by **Owzat** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:55 am

We won, job done. We were somewhat lucky with one or two decisions but I bet the bitters wouldn't be whinging if the boot were on the other foot. So what was it made smeegel's eyes pop out?

- Gerrard's "dive" - erm, nope. Definitely a foul and in the area, he was upset Stevie made sure the card was the right colour and I'm guessing his whiter than white players (and their fans) wouldn't ever do anything to sway a ref were the boot on the other foot

It had to be red, if McClueless watched that piece of Lescott defending - he let Stevie G charge off on his run and didn't go with him - then surely he'd regret promoting him on the basis of some goals and believe it or not the bitters have kept only two clean sheets all season

- Lescott 'penalty' #1 - six of one, half a dozen of the other. If the refs gave those we'd have 6-6 as often as 0-0 and 1-1.

- Lescott 'penalty' #2 - the more likely of the two, perhaps Clattenburg had used up his quota of cards and pens for the day!

- Kung Fu Kuyt - gotta admit I thought it would be red, he had no chance of winning the ball and every chance of making sure neville wouldn't be there to 'save' Lucas' shot later. That may well have ensured it ended 1-1, with Kuyt being booked that will prevent the FA making the correct decision in retrospect - something I disagree with regardless who the offender

So you can understand the bitters' having a bit more to chew on than usual, even after Sami forgot which area he was in and gifted them the lead. But putting aside what smeegel and the bitters' say, we won. However I am completely confused by Rafa's substitutions :-

Babel for Benayoun - we were a man up so he takes off one of our more creative options and leaves on Mascherano and Sissoko

Lucas for Gerrard - Rafa says he didn't want too much passion from Gerrard, nah he just p1 ssed him off instead. Gerrard was having a better game than most recently, again this left Mascherano AND Sissoko on despite Sissoko having yet another poor game

Pennant for Sissoko - finally the boss brings off Momo, but why oh why have we not used Crouch (a striker?) when we're a man up and pushing for the winner? We stuck with two (relatively) defensive central midfielders and only FINALLY took one off in the EIGHTY EIGHTH minute.

Did we win because Rafa was a tactical genius or in spite of some bizarre substitutions? I was thinking he might not even make the last change, this is one area of his management as well as the selections to start with that worry me a lot. It's one thing to have won, but this is going to cost us points as well and nearly did yesterday. And how could they carry nearly as much threat as us latterly when we had a two man advantage? ? Much thinking needs to be done by Rafa for next week's test(s), however I'm now worried he perhaps thinks TOO much and plays too much of the game in his head.

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:00 am

you have a point and have raised some very good points for arguing mate ..cheers on . but like some of our members have said , a win is a win , we have to get this out of our system beat beskitas in the cl and beat arsenal on Sunday to cut down their lead to 3 points

by **Owzat** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:04 am

Toffeehater wrote:you have a point and have raised some very good points for arguing mate ..cheers on . but like some of our members have said , a win is a win , we have to get this out of our system beat beskitas in the cl and beat arsenal on Sunday to cut down their lead to 3 points

We could all post "yay, we won" but I was under the impression discussion boards and post match discussions were for analysis. Of course it is three points, but it nearly wasn't and we won't win the title on current form - I reckon it would leave us on 80 points and that's based on unbeaten which we will unlikely end

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:09 am

yea records are meant to be broken like the unbeaten , sorry if i have questioned u .. 3 points were and should have never been in doubt if our players have better finishing . that the difference between us and the mancs , they take their chances , we don't .. we need to improve our finishing

by **dawson99** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:11 am

Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:you have a point and have raised some very good points for arguing mate ..cheers on . but like some of our members have said , a win is a win , we have to get this out of our system beat beskitas in the cl and beat arsenal on Sunday to cut down their lead to 3 points

We could all post "yay, we won" but I was under the impression discussion boards and post match discussions were for analysis. Of course it is three points, but it nearly wasn't and we won't win the title on current form - I reckon it would leave us on 80 points and that's based on unbeaten which we will unlikely end

lol, i just posted

'yay we won'

sorry, the way we are lpaying 3 points is massive. just think what we'll do when we actualyl start playing football again.

As for the phil 'spit' neville incident. there should be some kind of penalty goal situation as if we had missed the penalty it would have been an absolute disgrace. players handballing like that on the line should get a 5 match ban and the goal should have just been given.

by **bigmick** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:14 am

Though we were unquestionably a touch fortunate with the penalty decision which they didn't get at the end, we did deserve on the balance of play to win the game so it's not all doom and gloom. I don't think Everton were exactly robbed, our two were absolutely stone-wall certainties and theirs was only a "I've seen them given" so we are hardly talking the same sort of category as Rob Styles' robbery against Chelsea.

I actually thought that once we won the game, it could just be one of those freaky occurances upon which a little run can be built, some momentum gathered. If we kept the same group of players and brought back Torres and Agger into the first team proper, and Alonso and Pennant into the equation then we might just be able to get something going.

My main worry though continues to be the manager and his absolute determination it seems to me to be controversial, contrary and to grab the headlines. Regardless of the fact that Lucas did well when he came on and made the goal, taking Gerrard off was an absolutely ridiculous decision in the context of the game at the time. That we got lucky and extracated ourselves from jail in the dying seconds should be a cause for celebration, but to then give an interview with the tone of the one Rafa did was extremely ill-advised. Hopefully some bridge building can be done this week.

So where from here? Well I would play our strongest team in the European game. Whether that currently is the one which took the field on Saturday is very debateable, so I would have thought that playing the team which you expect to play against Arsenal at the weekend might be the call.

If Torres is ready, then play him. If he isn't, then I would have thought that we won't want to go with the Voronin/Kuyt pairing against Arsenal as we are going to need some pace/guile/goal threat/something up top. I'd be inclined to give Crouch a go as he scored a hat-trick against them last season but I'm probably just being silly, failing that I'd go with Babel, and failing that maybe Lucas is worth a shot.

What we absolutely don't need though, please please please no is half a dozen pointless little rotations followed by another half dozen for the Arsenal game. We may have got lucky, but lets use it and try and build on it. Win in Turkey (and frankly I couldn't give a feck how we play) and then win against Arsenal with prectically the same group of players and we may be talking. I just hope that the Gerrard substitution and subsequent after match interview haven't done us damage from which we can't recover.

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:15 am

dawson99 wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:you have a point and have raised some very good points for arguing mate ..cheers on . but like some of our members have said , a win is a win , we have to get this out of our system beat beskitas in the cl and beat arsenal on Sunday to cut down their lead to 3 points

We could all post "yay, we won" but I was under the impression discussion boards and post match discussions were for analysis. Of course it is three points, but it nearly wasn't and we won't win the title on current form - I reckon it would leave us on 80 points and that's based on unbeaten which we will unlikely end

lol, i just posted

'yay we won'

sorry, the way we are lpaying 3 points is massive. just think what we'll do when we actualyl start playing football again.

As for the phil 'spit' neville incident. there should be some kind of penalty goal situation as if we had missed the penalty it would have been an absolute disgrace. players handballing like that on the line should get a 5 match ban and the goal should have just been given.

YEa i totally agree with u , poor lucas just imagine the debut for him in the pl , replacing the captain and scoring a goal to save liverpool and make the greatest come back . but i bet gerrard would have done the same thing for us , it was instinct , i rather get sent off then give a goal. i guess the 5 match ban thing shud be implimented or the goal shud be given with the player getting sent off :buttrock

by **Sabre** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:27 am

Bad Bob wrote:I can only access the interview that Destro put up (cheers, mate!) and apparently there are two. I don't think it matters, though. The gist of both is that Gerrard was too passionate, which is not fair comment IMO. First off, it's a derby and passion is a requirement. But, more importantly, he was bossing the game not running around out of control. I don't like these comments anymore than I like the substitution. As someone said, though, hopefully Gerrard will respond in the right way in the next few games. Maybe a little anger will up his game.

Like you, I didn't understand the decission when it happened. After all, Gerrard changed the game up side down with his great run, after a good pass of Voronin. Gerrard brought back us to the game, which until the first penalty and the red card wasn't being a good one.

Our team, until that first penalty, entered the trap Everton set up to become a game a physical passionate one. Our midfielders and overall our players hadn't the composure to put the ball in the ground and have possesion. We had a starting eleven to have possesion, and we didn't quite have it as much as we should, I was quite unhappy in the first half.

So changing the man that gave us life is difficult to swallow.

Now about the words. It seems that many of you do not like them, so I assume aswell it's not a common phase in England.

To explain a substitution like that, you can say that the player asked the substitution which was not the case. You can say a player was not very active, which was not the case. And you can say that you need players that play with the heart, and not the brain, which is the kindest (not angry) way to say that a player wasn't following the instructions he was given.

Gerrard, is our Ronaldinho, our Kaka, our best player, our star. In every other teams, I respect the managers who are not dominated by their stars, but they show they're in charge. So if Rafa thought that his player wasn't doing what he should, then, I can disagree the decission, but I respect the decission.

Both the body gestures of Rafa and Reina announced what we had to do, open the pitch, stick the wing men to the white lines, and elaborate the game. When Lucas Leiva (who showed a couple of quality details and I liked him) came to the game, we managed a game against 10 men the proper way. We only lacked to finnish our chances, which were plenty, and glorious, like the one of Voronin and Riise's ball over the bar. The last penalty made justice because we had the best and most chances.

As I've said, I would have kept Gerrard in the pitch, because even playing with the heart and running with the ball when he should pass it, he was being terribly important in the game, where as, a man like Sissoko, is not that required for his ball winning abilities with one man more and the need to make a possesion game, move the ball from wing to wing game.

But, the point of keeping Gerrard was not to make him happy, but to win the game. There was no other goal. And we did win the game, and that's that.

P.S. One last comment about Rafa. He's received big amount of criticism. And the fact he's made such a sensitive decission in such a sensitive game, under the heavy pressure he is under, means IMHO that he's not losing the plot, rather showing he'll be stubborn and faithful to his beliefs. THis man will succeed or fail, only time will tell, but he will do so with his methods, so I wouldn't expect him to rectify rotation, nor any other of his beliefs.

by **EddieC** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:28 am

Totally agree about the handball thing, it's not right that blatant cheating gets the same punishment as a dodgy challenge that may not have been intentional. 5 match ban would sound about right to me too.

by **Owzat** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:31 am

Toffeehater wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:you have a point and have raised some very good points for arguing mate ..cheers on . but like some of our members have said , a win is a win , we have to get this out of our system beat beskitas in the cl and beat arsenal on Sunday to cut down their lead to 3 points

We could all post "yay, we won" but I was under the impression discussion boards and post match discussions were for analysis. Of course it is three points, but it nearly wasn't and we won't win the title on current form - I reckon it would leave us on 80 points and that's based on unbeaten which we will unlikely end

lol, i just posted

'yay we won'

sorry, the way we are lpaying 3 points is massive. just think what we'll do when we actualyl start playing football again.

As for the phil 'spit' neville incident. there should be some kind of penalty goal situation as if we had missed the penalty it would have been an absolute disgrace. players handballing like that on the line should get a 5 match ban and the goal should have just been given.

YEa i totally agree with u , poor lucas just imagine the debut for him in the pl , replacing the captain and scoring a goal to save liverpool and make the greatest come back . but i bet gerrard would have done the same thing for us , it was instinct , i rather get sent off then give a goal. i guess the 5 match ban thing shud be implimented or the goal shud be given with the player getting sent off

I think we should start a petition......................... :upside:

by **crazyhorse** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:36 am

I have said it before and I will say it again..

In recent years we have been losing this type of game, this season we are winning them.

Chelsea and Man Uts have proved that when you are not playing well you need to win these games to challenge.

I would rather win ugly than lose with style!

by **Toffeehater** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:37 am

don't bank on that mate , i doubt the fa are gonna listen to everton's petition also , they just gonna look at the game and decide what to do then , looks like he get the same punishment like the ref who officiated the chelsea vs liverpool game ..

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