Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win  all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.

In reference to your last bit, Liverpool IMO havent lacked quality and balance at the back especially the two center halves. Infact I think its a testiment to Agger, that one, he's kept Sami out of the majority of games this season. Two, we have still kept a damn good record for conceeding goals still. And three, those to previous facts arent lies.

I understand Agger isnt your typical big burley centre half, who isnt as dominant in every aspect of his defending as Sami is. He personally took me a while to appreciate because of this but like I said to you before what he hasnt got now he can get later when time goes on. If you know so much about football you'll admit that this is one position that you get better with, with experiance. Like I said to you, most of what he needs to learn is mental i.e position, concertration, reading the game etc. On the ball, technically he's better than Carra, thats not saying much but I think these two over the next couple of seasons should compliment eachother perfectly.

Put it this way, Centre half is the least of our worries, its up top where we need "quality" or even where your man Pennant is.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win  all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.

In reference to your last bit, Liverpool IMO havent lacked quality and balance at the back especially the two center halves. Infact I think its a testiment to Agger, that one, he's kept Sami out of the majority of games this season. Two, we have still kept a damn good record for conceeding goals still. And three, those to previous facts arent lies.

I understand Agger isnt your typical big burley centre half, who isnt as dominant in every aspect of his defending as Sami is. He personally took me a while to appreciate because of this but like I said to you before what he hasnt got now he can get later when time goes on. If you know so much about football you'll admit that this is one position that you get better with, with experiance. Like I said to you, most of what he needs to learn is mental i.e position, concertration, reading the game etc. On the ball, technically he's better than Carra, thats not saying much but I think these two over the next couple of seasons should compliment eachother perfectly.

Put it this way, Centre half is the least of our worries, its up top where we need "quality" or even where your man Pennant is.

Disagree with you completely.

We play three ball winners at all times in midfield, at times we've also played a left back in midfield with three ball winners and we have a striker who's more interested in tackling, tracking back and working hard than than putting the ball in the back of the net.

All this and we still only have a defensive record thats slightly better than United and one thats not as good as Chelsea's.

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win  all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.

In reference to your last bit, Liverpool IMO havent lacked quality and balance at the back especially the two center halves. Infact I think its a testiment to Agger, that one, he's kept Sami out of the majority of games this season. Two, we have still kept a damn good record for conceeding goals still. And three, those to previous facts arent lies.

I understand Agger isnt your typical big burley centre half, who isnt as dominant in every aspect of his defending as Sami is. He personally took me a while to appreciate because of this but like I said to you before what he hasnt got now he can get later when time goes on. If you know so much about football you'll admit that this is one position that you get better with, with experiance. Like I said to you, most of what he needs to learn is mental i.e position, concertration, reading the game etc. On the ball, technically he's better than Carra, thats not saying much but I think these two over the next couple of seasons should compliment eachother perfectly.

Put it this way, Centre half is the least of our worries, its up top where we need "quality" or even where your man Pennant is.

Disagree with you completely.

We play three ball winners at all times in midfield, at times we've also played a left back in midfield with three ball winners and we have a striker who's more interested in tackling, tracking back and working hard than than putting the ball in the back of the net.

All this and we still only have a defensive record thats slightly better than United and one thats not as good as Chelsea's.

yeah but those ball winners are also creative players like gerrard and alonso.
your making out we are like everton with neville and carsley.
even that left back you are talking about, i assume its risse.
well he was a left winger originally converted into a left back.
all good teams defend from the front.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win  all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.

In reference to your last bit, Liverpool IMO havent lacked quality and balance at the back especially the two center halves. Infact I think its a testiment to Agger, that one, he's kept Sami out of the majority of games this season. Two, we have still kept a damn good record for conceeding goals still. And three, those to previous facts arent lies.

I understand Agger isnt your typical big burley centre half, who isnt as dominant in every aspect of his defending as Sami is. He personally took me a while to appreciate because of this but like I said to you before what he hasnt got now he can get later when time goes on. If you know so much about football you'll admit that this is one position that you get better with, with experiance. Like I said to you, most of what he needs to learn is mental i.e position, concertration, reading the game etc. On the ball, technically he's better than Carra, thats not saying much but I think these two over the next couple of seasons should compliment eachother perfectly.

Put it this way, Centre half is the least of our worries, its up top where we need "quality" or even where your man Pennant is.

Disagree with you completely.

We play three ball winners at all times in midfield, at times we've also played a left back in midfield with three ball winners and we have a striker who's more interested in tackling, tracking back and working hard than than putting the ball in the back of the net.

All this and we still only have a defensive record thats slightly better than United and one thats not as good as Chelsea's.

Stu.Murph wrote:

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Bamaga man wrote:

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win  all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.

In reference to your last bit, Liverpool IMO havent lacked quality and balance at the back especially the two center halves. Infact I think its a testiment to Agger, that one, he's kept Sami out of the majority of games this season. Two, we have still kept a damn good record for conceeding goals still. And three, those to previous facts arent lies.

I understand Agger isnt your typical big burley centre half, who isnt as dominant in every aspect of his defending as Sami is. He personally took me a while to appreciate because of this but like I said to you before what he hasnt got now he can get later when time goes on. If you know so much about football you'll admit that this is one position that you get better with, with experiance. Like I said to you, most of what he needs to learn is mental i.e position, concertration, reading the game etc. On the ball, technically he's better than Carra, thats not saying much but I think these two over the next couple of seasons should compliment eachother perfectly.

Put it this way, Centre half is the least of our worries, its up top where we need "quality" or even where your man Pennant is.

Disagree with you completely.

We play three ball winners at all times in midfield, at times we've also played a left back in midfield with three ball winners and we have a striker who's more interested in tackling, tracking back and working hard than than putting the ball in the back of the net.

All this and we still only have a defensive record thats slightly better than United and one thats not as good as Chelsea's.

yeah but those ball winners are also creative players like gerrard and alonso.
your making out we are like everton with neville and carsley.
even that left back you are talking about, i assume its risse.
well he was a left winger originally converted into a left back.
all good teams defend from the front.

I've had this discussion many a time though, they aren't creative players in the sense of Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Rosicky, Pires, Giggs, Helb... none of them have technical abiltiy and intelligence over workman like skills.

As good as Gerrard and Alonso are, they aren't anywhere near the Robben's or Scholes of this world in terms of being able to create and break stubborn defences down. They all do more than their fair share defensively... infact I'd go as far to say as all of them are better defensively than going forward with the exception of Gerrard who's probably = in both aspect of his game.

The defence has Sissoko, Mascherano, Gerrard, Alonso and a left back at left wing, aswell as Bellamy, Crouch and Kuyt who all cover ground. We're probably the hardest complete unit to break down, we're also by a mile the least talented out of the top four going forward. If your best attacking player is a box to box ball winning aggressive midfield player then serious questions need to be asked.

Stu.Murph wrote:I've had this discussion many a time though, they aren't creative players in the sense of Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Rosicky, Pires, Giggs, Helb... none of them have technical abiltiy and intelligence over workman like skills.

As good as Gerrard and Alonso are, they aren't anywhere near the Robben's or Scholes of this world in terms of being able to create and break stubborn defences down. They all do more than their fair share defensively... infact I'd go as far to say as all of them are better defensively than going forward with the exception of Gerrard who's probably = in both aspect of his game.

The defence has Sissoko, Mascherano, Gerrard, Alonso and a left back at left wing, aswell as Bellamy, Crouch and Kuyt who all cover ground. We're probably the hardest complete unit to break down, we're also by a mile the least talented out of the top four going forward. If your best attacking player is a box to box ball winning aggressive midfield player then serious questions need to be asked.

Stu.Murph wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:12) 'IE no-one would argue that Cisse is one of the quickest players ever to play for Liverpool quite simply because people know how to judge that attribute. '

Speed is only one attribute players possess, it is empirical. For example it could be proven that Gerrard is faster than Lampard e.g. by sprint tests. That is an attribute that is empirical, other attributes are a matter of opinion as they are disputable. Speed is an attribute that you cannot dispute as it can be measured.

Sissoko is young, only 22, his game intelligence will improve with age. Scholes is 32, he has fully matured. Again you are making unreasonable comparisons. Facts are generally acknowledged to be things that are 'Proven' e.g. Rafa was born in Spain, he has a birth certificate to prove it. You say game intelligence is something that cannot be proven. By your very definition then how can this be a 'fact'. It is not a fact, it is a matter for the individual to express their own opinion as to who has the better game intelligence.
It is distinctly different to 'who is faster' - something that can be proven and is a fact.

17) You also like to sit on the fence alot. IE you can't possibly know such and such will be such and such in the future. Well like I've said a million times, if you can't know that, why do players like Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc do what they have done? Again you're going to say extremes but it isn't. '

Firstly, FACT - nobody knows what will happen in the future. Is that sitting on the fence?, no, it is a concrete fact. Not even mystic Stu can predict exactly who will make the grade at the highest level. There have been plenty of hot prospects who have failed to make the grade at the top level. The players you have cited are exceptionally talented and have developed significantly throughout their careers. Talent and more importantly HARD WORK has got them where they are, not people saying 'he's got the ability to be a good player in the future' - that counts for nothing.

The point is crystal clear. The other attributes are no more a matter of opinion than pace is. Its as simple as that.

Like I've said, people don't understand what they are looking for, as with pace they do. They don't need tests to see Cisse's quick.

You're obviously the one who's low on intelligence if you can't understand that.

As I've already said to you, It doesn't matter how close the gap is, just because it doesn't suit your arguement, weather you're comparing Cisse's pace to Hyypia's or Cisse's pace to Henry's, one is always quicker than the other.

Owen to Fowler, Owen to Baros, one is always a better finisher than the other... It requires judgement and the ability to see these things rather than someone forming an opinion on something they know absoloutely nothing about.



On point 17, you again show a distinct lack of knowledge of the game by coming out with "nobody knows what will happen in the future". No, you're right, I don't know what the weathers like tomorrow, I don't know what time I'll get out of bed, but as to weather a footballer who's no more than average will all of a sudden become world class, I can absoloutely 100% put my life, house, cars and just about everything I own on that never happening.

People seem to think players can do "learn to become a good passer" "if he can just do this he'll be great". It doesn't work like that, it never has and never will. People are sitting here saying to me if Agger can put meat on he'll be a great centre half, then he'll lose a yard of pace, the other thing is if you look at Sami, he's a bigger build than Sami aswell.

Players will never ever become something they arent. FACT! Not opinion, absoloute cast iron fact. Just because your "opinion" differs, doesn't mean you have a vaild one. If you actually speak to any coach who knows what they are talking about they'll say exactly the same thing.

They start to mould into a player at a very very very young age, normally around 9-11 years old, once they've set into a mould then thats it. You start to see the style and strength's in their game and what they are good at. This starts to develop as they grow older to about 16/18... from these ages they learn to gain a consistency in what they are good at, their skills and attributes mature and this is when they become ready for first team football. At this point they can have world class ability (Owen, Fowler, Rooney, Gerrard). Over the next couple of years they start to learn how to use their attributes, the rawness, they possess is taken away from them and they start to learn more about themselves as a player, that doesn't mean they are quicker, that doesn't mean they are stronger or a better tackler of finisher. It simply means they understand themselves better as a player.

The only attributes than can increase (in terms of improvement) between 18 and 22 are physical attributes where the player actually physically grows (see Steven Gerrard) or where a player loses a yard of pace and learns how to adapt a movement, or quality to make up for that.

They don't all of a sudden become an average passer, to a great passer. A slow player to a quick player. A player who can't shoot to a player who can shoot.

Frank Lampards another great example.

The one I like to use is Joey Barton and Steven Gerrard. If you look at both players, you'll see two very very similar players. Its actually quite scarey how similar they are in terms of vision, passing, striking a ball, intelligence, skill, determination, marking, tackling, aggression, work rate, choice of pass. Barton actually pips Gerrard in quite a few of these. Now as kids, Gerrard was always going to make it, there were lads there better than him who didn't for whatever reasons, but I was told he was ALWAYS going to be a professional football as you could see he was a quality player.

Now Barton as a child was actually deemed a better player than Steven. But if you watch the two closely, you can actually see it. Barton WAS and I repeat WAS a better player than Steven. Technically and in terms of game intelligence, especially his ability to play a through ball, Joey is easily as good if not ever so marginally better in some area's. You watch the two of them and get to know them as players and think, what would Steven have done there, what would Joey have done there, and you find yourself saying similar things.

The difference... Steven is 6'1, build like a monster, one of the quickest players in england and is physically world class.

Joey is an average premiership player physically. Is about 5'10, while he has the stamina of Gerrard, the rest of his physical attributes don't even compare.

This stops him playing with the same intensity as Gerrard, this stops him being able to get into the same positions, being able to get around the pitch.

Like I've said a million times, if people actually stop thinking they know it all, watch the two players objectively and not through rose tinted specticles and ignoring the other players around them. They will see exactly what I'm talking about, they'll see both Barton and Gerrard for what they are.

Had it not been for Gerrard's extreme growth (a rare case), we'd be looking at two very very evenly matched players and possibly even Joey Barton being the better of the two.