Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu.Murph]

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

can we lock this thread, because i cannot be the only one who thinks this manc is taking the pish when he thinks players like Fowler are good enough to win us the league

Stop trying to turn this into yet another Fowler debate.

You're becoming extremely boring.

[7_Kewell]

I tried to have a proper Liverpool discussion with you Stu but you‘re a moron.  I attempted to discuss why our team declined in the early 90’s with players staying too long….I asked for your opinion on other Liverpool legends who stayed beyond their best….but you didn’t have a f**king clue what I was on about…not  one bit.  I asked for your opinion on Rush and Barnes and you really don’t know what they were like at their best or past it. 

You’re a wind up merchant and a poor one at that.

[Stu.Murph]

You tried to have a propper football discussion?

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

I tried to have a proper Liverpool discussion with you Stu but you‘re a moron.  I attempted to discuss why our team declined in the early 90’s with players staying too long….I asked for your opinion on other Liverpool legends who stayed beyond their best….but you didn’t have a f**king clue what I was on about…not  one bit.  I asked for your opinion on Rush and Barnes and you really don’t know what they were like at their best or past it. 

You’re a wind up merchant and a poor one at that.

why whats your theory about the early 90`s crowd?

[LFC2007]

My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

So when someone states a fact as an opinion you're meant to just sit there and reply with a structured arguement?

Ok well then, in my opinion a square only has three sides and theres nothing you can do or say to slate that because an opinion can't be wrong, better or worse than anyone elses.

Also in my opinion, I'm a better footballer than Vieira.

Now, is that talking rubbish or is that having an opinion? Its exactly the same when talking about footballers.

Alot of people here aren't Liverpool supporters and wouldn't know what it means to be a Liverpool supporter. Alot of people on here associate their name with the club because we're successful. No other reason.

As I've already said, I'm more than reasonable, but when I hear people putting across "opinions" on things they know nothing or very little about why on earth should I "be reasonable"?

The thing that makes me laugh is people seem to think when I say something like such and such is better than someone else Its an opinion, its not, its a fact. If one players better than another then its a fact. Some people can't see that fact because they don't understand what they are looking for, some people can see it.

Some people can also see it when the gap is alot smaller. Again though, its still a fact, not an opinion. Its about judgement and knowledge, not about opinion. As I've previously said, Wenger isn't a great manager because his opinions better than Curbishley, he's better because he actually is better.

Simple as that.

I devoted a paragraph to 'opinions' in one of my posts if only you'd read it!

Giving opinions over progress and ability are not discernable facts, they are a matter of opinion. For example, many people feel that Momo Sissoko has the quality to be an excellent player, others disagree and feel he will be mediocre 4th string midfielder. That is NOT a discernable fact it is an opinion, therefore you cannot compare it to saying 'I think a square has three sides', that is an empirical fact. If someone wanted to have the opinion that a square has three sides, they can have that opinion, it is an empirically wrong opinion and most people would consider them deluded, but they can still have that opinion, anyone is allowed freedom of conscience. That, however, is taking it to the extreme and is NOT a reasonable opinion to give.

Anyone can have an opinion about anything Stu, I have not gone to extremities in my arguments like saying 'I am a better footballer than Vieira', that is taking it out of context and is unreasonable. I have merely given my opinions over reasonable issues.

I am a real Liverpool supporter and I go to games when I can.

Saying quote: 'generally talks sh!te' is unreasonable and disrespectful to anyone, it should not be tolerated end of story.

We're all Liverpool fans, some go to games, some don't. But their opinions should be respected. I feel you don't show people the respect they deserve when they give an opinion, otherwise you simply wouldn't use that kind of language. I think it's to your detriment.

Giving an opinion over someone, like for example saying, 'this player is better than that player' is not a FACT, it is an opinion. For example, some feel Gerrard is better than Lampard, others disagree. It is an opinion over a reasonable comparison. I have elaborated on this point in one of my longest posts, cited below.

With regard to Curbishley and Wenger, it would be hard to argue that Curbishley is the better manager, it is however an unreasonable comparison. Some would argue that Curbishley has not had the opportunity to manage at the same level as Wenger, rendering it an unfair comparison. Nontheless someone could still have the opinion that Curbishley is the better manager, it would seem unreasonable and difficult to justify that view but they can still have that opinion.

You could argue that the matter of fact, that is to say, the trophies won by Wenger determine him to be the better manager. However, the comparison is unreasonable since they are managers at different levels within the Premiership.


I have replicated my earlier post, I hope you understand it:


"Your convoluted argument that judging player ability or performance is not a matter of 'opinion' is crazy. You take the example of comparing yourself to Patrick Vieira, firstly it would be unreasonable to make this comparison since he is a professional - you are not. Nonetheless, you can have your own opinion about whatever you like. Others can judge that opinion to be wrong, but that doesn't render the individual's own opinion to be wrong - there is a subtle difference. I remember a famous quote from when I studied Law: ' Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign'. In the extreme circumstance that you have cited you could argue that because Vieira is a professional and you are not, the matter of fact defines Vieira to be the better player. This does not mean that in your own subjective opinion you cannot be better than Vieira, it would merely seem unreasonable to the majority. If you take it to the extreme at the top level i.e . the premiership, it would seem unreasonable,for example, to judge Mark Gonzales to be a better player than Ryan Giggs since it would be hard to justify why. Nonetheless (not my opinion), you could argue that Mark Gonzales has the potential to be better than Giggs, since he is only young, players develop at different times, at different rates and by virtue of the fact that the future is unforeseeable. Others could argue that they believe he lacks the basic ability to reach the same level as Giggs, at the highest level of football nobody can make an objective statement as to whether he will or not. The final judgement lies with Benitez, who by matter of fact is more qualified than any of us. Only on the result of that decision can you hold him accountable."

You're saying its not a reasonable arguement because it doesn't suit your arguement. Simple as that.

Players are made of different attributes. FACT.

Some are better than others at these attributes. FACT.

Some players are better than others. FACT.

Some players are worse than others. FACT.

All players have level's of ability which make them into what they are. FACT.

Using extremes is as valid an arguement, as using examples that aren't so extreme.

If someone said Paul Scholes wasn't as technically gifted a football as me they would be wrong. If they said he was more so than Zidane they would be wrong.

The FACTS are some players are better than others.

Opinions, and clueless ones at that, come in from not understanding the facts and not learning about the facts.

IE no-one would argue that Cisse is one of the quickest players ever to play for Liverpool quite simply because people know how to judge that attribute.

Its quite simple my point, if you know what to look for you can make a judgement based on fact. Not opinion.

People don't know how to judge other attributes and don't understand player improvement, developement and mentallity. Aswell as growth, they don't understand the tactical requirements of the game either and the overall impact all of these things have on making a player.

People talk about this game alot, they have opinions on it, but there opinions often don't match the facts or the truth.

If someone says Paul Scholes is more intelligent a player than Sissoko, can it be "proven"? No it can't, but it is a fact of the game of football. Thats what makes the game so interesting.

You also like to sit on the fence alot. IE you can't possibly know such and such will be such and such in the future. Well like I've said a million times, if you can't know that, why do players like Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc do what they have done? Again you're going to say extremes but it isn't.

You continuously fail to acknowledge that you don't understand the game by using opinions, twisted comments and sit on the fence techniques to question someones knowledge on a sport.

You also say players develop at different rates?

Again something you clearly don't understand.

You persist on talking about players and Benitez qualifications... What relivance has it? Absoloutely none.

Thats like saying to me if a maths teacher says 2+2 is 5 I should just accept it.

At the end of the day, I'll be proven right on the players I've mentioned again and you'll say it was a guess when it clearly isn't. And again next time it happens, you'll again say it was a guess and blah de blah. Ask everyone on here about my guess work with other players in the past...

Regardless of your "opinion" the fact is you can sit there and say how good a player is. You can sit there and say how good a player will be and you can also sit there and have a knowledge of the game rather than an opinion.

I strongly suggest you go and learn about the game.

It is a shame you don't have the intellect to understand the argument I put forward.

You have a very narrow minded view of things.

1) The comparison of Wenger and Curbishley is in most people's eyes unreasonable. They are managers at different levels within the Premier League, who have operated on far different budgets. I think most people would consider a comparison of Benitez vs Wenger a more reasonable one for example.

2)'Players are made of different attributes', of course they are, spot the obvious.

3) 'Some are better than others at these attributes - FACT'

Yes, BUT, people can have opinions as to the variances of these attributes and the degree to which a player is good at a particular attribute. What arises from this?, an opinion on how good a player is.

4) 'Some players are better than others - FACT'

At the highest level of football, people will quibble over which players are better than others. You take it to the extreme to prove your argument e.g. 'I am better than Vieira', this is not reality and hence it is unreasonable. It is subjective when not taken to the extremes i.e. at the very highest level.There are players who are generally considered to be better than others, but it is subjective when reasonable comparisons are made.

5) 'Some players are worse than others' - as above.

6) 'All players have level's of ability which make them into what they are. FACT'.

Again, spotting the obvious.

7) Using extremes is NOT as valid an argument as using examples that aren't extreme - it is unreasonable and out of context, I have already explained this above.

8) 'If someone said Paul Scholes wasn't as technically gifted a football as me they would be wrong'

You have no concept of freedom of conscience, refer to my last post. It would seem unreasonable to most people, that is not to say you can't have that opinion!

9) 'If they said he was more so than Zidane they would be wrong.'

Again, most people would agree that Zidane is the more technically gifted player. Others could argue that Paul Scholes possesses certain attributes better than Zidane. People will disagree, these are reasonable opinions, not facts.

10) 'The FACTS are some players are better than others'

Already explained.

11) 'Opinions, and clueless ones at that, come in from not understanding the facts and not learning about the facts.'

A fact is something that is undisputed, do people dispute at the highest level who are better players? Yes, hence why people form OPINIONS over who is better.

12) 'IE no-one would argue that Cisse is one of the quickest players ever to play for Liverpool quite simply because people know how to judge that attribute. '

Speed is only one attribute players possess, it is empirical. For example it could be proven that Gerrard is faster than Lampard e.g. by sprint tests. That is an attribute that is empirical, other attributes are a matter of opinion as they are disputable. Speed is an attribute that you cannot dispute as it can be measured.

13) 'Its quite simple my point, if you know what to look for you can make a judgement based on fact. Not opinion.'

Already answered.

14) 'People don't know how to judge other attributes and don't understand player improvement, developement and mentallity. Aswell as growth, they don't understand the tactical requirements of the game either and the overall impact all of these things have on making a player.'

Which 'people' are you talking about here. I'm assuming this group of people MUST include Rafa Benitez because surely if he understood all of the above he would have made more than two signings that have improved our squad. Is he another who lacks the knowledge of player improvement, development and mentality? Showing your arrogance again.

15) 'People talk about this game alot, they have opinions on it, but there opinions often don't match the facts or the truth'

Opinions are just that, its called the freedom of opinion. The 'truth' is indeterminate, player judgement is subjective to each individual who expresses an opinion, for example we disagree about Sissoko and Kuyt, the 'truth' to you si something different to somebody else.

16) 'If someone says Paul Scholes is more intelligent a player than Sissoko, can it be "proven"? No it can't, but it is a fact of the game of football. Thats what makes the game so interesting.'

Sissoko is young, only 22, his game intelligence will improve with age. Scholes is 32, he has fully matured. Again you are making unreasonable comparisons. Facts are generally acknowledged to be things that are 'Proven' e.g. Rafa was born in Spain, he has a birth certificate to prove it. You say game intelligence is something that cannot be proven. By your very definition then how can this be a 'fact'. It is not a fact, it is a matter for the individual to express their own opinion as to who has the better game intelligence.
It is distinctly different to 'who is faster' - something that can be proven and is a fact.

17) 'You also like to sit on the fence alot. IE you can't possibly know such and such will be such and such in the future. Well like I've said a million times, if you can't know that, why do players like Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc do what they have done? Again you're going to say extremes but it isn't. '

Firstly, FACT - nobody knows what will happen in the future. Is that sitting on the fence?, no, it is a concrete fact. Not even mystic Stu can predict exactly who will make the grade at the highest level. There have been plenty of hot prospects who have failed to make the grade at the top level. The players you have cited are exceptionally talented and have developed significantly throughout their careers. Talent and more importantly HARD WORK has got them where they are, not people saying 'he's got the ability to be a good player in the future' - that counts for nothing.

18) 'You continuously fail to acknowledge that you don't understand the game by using opinions, twisted comments and sit on the fence techniques to question someones knowledge on a sport.'

I have presented my arguments clearly you just lack intelligence. I have failed to acknowledge that I don't understand the game because in my opinion I believe I have a very good understanding of the game. You are the one who continually exemplifies arrogance, bigotry and a 'know it all' attitude. Why don't you do your coaching badges and go on to be a top coach? Why, because of your attitude.

19) 'You also say players develop at different rates?'
     'Again something you clearly don't understand'

OK, If I don't understand, does Benitez also not understand? After all, only two of his signings to date have been adequate in your view (Alonso and Reina). Does he also lack knowledge of player development?, a man who has won 2 la ligas, a UEFA cup, a Champions League and FA cup? Does he lack the knowledge over the rate at which Sissoko will develop or the rate at which Agger develops? Tell me Stu, why don't you go and put all that knowledge of yours to the test, go out do your badges and who knows maybe in 10 years time we'll see you in charge of Liverpool.


20) 'At the end of the day, I'll be proven right on the players I've mentioned again and you'll say it was a guess when it clearly isn't. And again next time it happens, you'll again say it was a guess and blah de blah. Ask everyone on here about my guess work with other players in the past...'

Typical arrogance again, I don't know which players you've mentioned in the past, please tell me Stu, give me a list of 30 players below the age of 21 who will in your view become top class in the future. Or even better, put that knowledge to use, go out and become a top manager or even a top talent scout.

21) 'I strongly suggest you go and learn about the game.'

Likewise Stu.

[Bad Bob]

Just in case anyone's interested in getting back to footy chat instead of debating the finer points of opinion vs. fact, I offer my comments from the "Do the Right Thing" thread--a nice little football discussion that got lost in the shuffle...

He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

Stu, I've highlighted what I think are the key phrases in your argument (an argument, BTW, that you've made before...especially during the World Cup this summer).  What you've set out here is precisely why you fall on the opposite side of the "fence" to so many on here.  In your view, players like Agger, Sissoko and Kuyt will never be "world class" and I'm inclined to agree with you in the sense that, after their careers have ended and people run the rule over their contributions to football, they will not likely be mentioned in the same breath as true world class players like Zidane or Maradona or Beckenbauer.  You also make the same claim for Carragher, which some people would find hard to swallow.  Nonetheless, I'll agree with you again that Carragher will never be considered "world class" by the footballing world when all is said and done in terms of his career.

Nonetheless, you argue that he's a great club player that suits our system perfectly and that's why he's a Liverpool legend (you've said as much in recent weeks).  So, isn't that really what most Liverpool fans are looking for and care about at the end of the day?  We want players who will suit a winning system.  Whether they are "world class" or not is more or less irrelevant.  Whether they would "walk into" United's side or Chelsea's side is also more or less irrelevant because they don't play our system.  As long as our system is sound--and I still think Rafa's getting that right--then we need the players that can slot into it well and help it work.  So, Agger might not be the next Rio Ferdinand but if he fits our system who cares?  Same goes for Sissoko or Kuyt or Crouch.

I think you place far too much emphasis on this "world class" stuff.  Shevchenko and Ballack are arguably "world class" or at least "international class" but they haven't made Chelsea a better team and have arguably weakened them by upsetting the apple cart.  For me, it's not a matter of simply going out and getting world class/international class players in every position and expecting them all to cohere into a title-winning side.  The players must suit the system--something you clearly acknowledge otherwise you'd be saying Carragher's not good enough either, right? 

[red37]

can you lot stop quoting these half a mile long posts included in your latest ones..me scrolling wheel finger is getting tired.

[LFC2007]

........ I will not stoop to that level.

If you want to continue this debate at a sensible level and so we can get back on track, as you clearly derailed it, answer me the following questions:

1) How far do you think we are from the title? As in how many players are we short of and how many years will it take Rafa.

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

3) If we are good enough to win the CL and be in the final for a second time in 3 years why aren't we good enough to win the EPL?

You views would be much appreciated.............

Eds, you derailed the debate by using abusive and insulting language, what is your problem why can't you be respectful and civilized?

You and Stu are on your own level, I'm not the one being abusive, telling people to 'Fark Off', I have given well reasoned arguments and not seen the need to swear or belittle others. You have used abuse to try and convey your arguments. If you did not use abuse/insluts in your posts I would be more than happy to continue the footy debate.

Re. 'Stu' being 'Eds. OK I was probably wrong, but why did you answer questions that were directed at Stu? I was addressing Stu's posts, not yours, the style of the post was also very stu-esque. It was a perfectly justifiable assumption given that you answered exactly the same questions I posed to Stu, you may have done this inadvertently but I cleary addressed my posts to Stu.

Now....end of abuse and back to football!

[bigmick]

Couple of points here. Firstly, and a couple of people have already made this request, can we stop quoting each others half a page long posts please? it's boring. Secondly, can we stop dissecting the minutiae (or however the feck you spell it) of detail in each others ramblings, it's the thrust of what somebody is on about which is interesting and not the literal dissection of what they said and didn't say. Thirdly, can we cut out the abuse? it's also boring.

Lastly, and I don't want to get accused of sitting on the fence here but I surely can't be the only one who can see that in the main body of the debate as it has now developed, both camps are correct.
Of course it is gramatically correct, to point out that the view that Paul Scholes possesses more game intelligence than Momo Sissoko ever will have is an OPINION and not a fact (infact). That said, although it is an opinion, it is also a fact, if you get my drift Now my advice is to the main protagonists on this thread, stop trying to prove how clever you are and just debate the points.

[Owzat]

To pose the question in a different way, how many are 100% sure of their place in the squad?

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Riise
Gerrard
Xabi Alonso
Mascherano
Kuyt

I'd say one or two others might be confident of being retained, but one or two more than you might think will be mighty nervous with the reported transfer fund. I could extend the list by a few, I expect players like Arbeloa, Paletta and most of the younger players will be kept but of the older pros a lot may be constantly wondering where they will be playing next season

That isn't to say anyone not on that list will go, but anyone not on that list should be worried (not because it's me choosing their fate but because they are not 100% sure IMO)

[metalhead]

To pose the question in a different way, how many are 100% sure of their place in the squad?

Reina
Finnan
Carragher
Agger
Riise
Gerrard
Xabi Alonso
Mascherano
Kuyt

I'd say one or two others might be confident of being retained, but one or two more than you might think will be mighty nervous with the reported transfer fund. I could extend the list by a few, I expect players like Arbeloa, Paletta and most of the younger players will be kept but of the older pros a lot may be constantly wondering where they will be playing next season

That isn't to say anyone not on that list will go, but anyone not on that list should be worried (not because it's me choosing their fate but because they are not 100% sure IMO)

Arbeloa will be judged until next season.

Paletta looks rubbish, he needs to be loaned out or sold, he isn't a premiership type of defender

[7_Kewell]

You tried to have a propper football discussion?

no, i tried to have a proper football discussion.

[Marianne]

Im not a great Zenden lover and give some respect to dudek! He saved pens for us in may 05!
Defo need a world class striker tho..

[Stu.Murph]

12) 'IE no-one would argue that Cisse is one of the quickest players ever to play for Liverpool quite simply because people know how to judge that attribute. '

Speed is only one attribute players possess, it is empirical. For example it could be proven that Gerrard is faster than Lampard e.g. by sprint tests. That is an attribute that is empirical, other attributes are a matter of opinion as they are disputable. Speed is an attribute that you cannot dispute as it can be measured.

Sissoko is young, only 22, his game intelligence will improve with age. Scholes is 32, he has fully matured. Again you are making unreasonable comparisons. Facts are generally acknowledged to be things that are 'Proven' e.g. Rafa was born in Spain, he has a birth certificate to prove it. You say game intelligence is something that cannot be proven. By your very definition then how can this be a 'fact'. It is not a fact, it is a matter for the individual to express their own opinion as to who has the better game intelligence.
It is distinctly different to 'who is faster' - something that can be proven and is a fact.

17) You also like to sit on the fence alot. IE you can't possibly know such and such will be such and such in the future. Well like I've said a million times, if you can't know that, why do players like Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc do what they have done? Again you're going to say extremes but it isn't. '

Firstly, FACT - nobody knows what will happen in the future. Is that sitting on the fence?, no, it is a concrete fact. Not even mystic Stu can predict exactly who will make the grade at the highest level. There have been plenty of hot prospects who have failed to make the grade at the top level. The players you have cited are exceptionally talented and have developed significantly throughout their careers. Talent and more importantly HARD WORK has got them where they are, not people saying 'he's got the ability to be a good player in the future' - that counts for nothing.

The point is crystal clear. The other attributes are no more a matter of opinion than pace is. Its as simple as that.

Like I've said, people don't understand what they are looking for, as with pace they do. They don't need tests to see Cisse's quick.

You're obviously the one who's low on intelligence if you can't understand that.

As I've already said to you, It doesn't matter how close the gap is, just because it doesn't suit your arguement, weather you're comparing Cisse's pace to Hyypia's or Cisse's pace to Henry's, one is always quicker than the other.

Owen to Fowler, Owen to Baros, one is always a better finisher than the other... It requires judgement and the ability to see these things rather than someone forming an opinion on something they know absoloutely nothing about.



On point 17, you again show a distinct lack of knowledge of the game by coming out with "nobody knows what will happen in the future". No, you're right, I don't know what the weathers like tomorrow, I don't know what time I'll get out of bed, but as to weather a footballer who's no more than average will all of a sudden become world class, I can absoloutely 100% put my life, house, cars and just about everything I own on that never happening.

People seem to think players can do "learn to become a good passer" "if he can just do this he'll be great". It doesn't work like that, it never has and never will. People are sitting here saying to me if Agger can put meat on he'll be a great centre half, then he'll lose a yard of pace, the other thing is if you look at Sami, he's a bigger build than Sami aswell.

Players will never ever become something they arent. FACT! Not opinion, absoloute cast iron fact. Just because your "opinion" differs, doesn't mean you have a vaild one. If you actually speak to any coach who knows what they are talking about they'll say exactly the same thing.

They start to mould into a player at a very very very young age, normally around 9-11 years old, once they've set into a mould then thats it. You start to see the style and strength's in their game and what they are good at. This starts to develop as they grow older to about 16/18... from these ages they learn to gain a consistency in what they are good at, their skills and attributes mature and this is when they become ready for first team football. At this point they can have world class ability (Owen, Fowler, Rooney, Gerrard). Over the next couple of years they start to learn how to use their attributes, the rawness, they possess is taken away from them and they start to learn more about themselves as a player, that doesn't mean they are quicker, that doesn't mean they are stronger or a better tackler of finisher. It simply means they understand themselves better as a player.

The only attributes than can increase (in terms of improvement) between 18 and 22 are physical attributes where the player actually physically grows (see Steven Gerrard) or where a player loses a yard of pace and learns how to adapt a movement, or quality to make up for that.

They don't all of a sudden become an average passer, to a great passer. A slow player to a quick player. A player who can't shoot to a player who can shoot.

Frank Lampards another great example.

The one I like to use is Joey Barton and Steven Gerrard. If you look at both players, you'll see two very very similar players. Its actually quite scarey how similar they are in terms of vision, passing, striking a ball, intelligence, skill, determination, marking, tackling, aggression, work rate, choice of pass. Barton actually pips Gerrard in quite a few of these. Now as kids, Gerrard was always going to make it, there were lads there better than him who didn't for whatever reasons, but I was told he was ALWAYS going to be a professional football as you could see he was a quality player.

Now Barton as a child was actually deemed a better player than Steven. But if you watch the two closely, you can actually see it. Barton WAS and I repeat WAS a better player than Steven. Technically and in terms of game intelligence, especially his ability to play a through ball, Joey is easily as good if not ever so marginally better in some area's. You watch the two of them and get to know them as players and think, what would Steven have done there, what would Joey have done there, and you find yourself saying similar things.

The difference... Steven is 6'1, build like a monster, one of the quickest players in england and is physically world class.

Joey is an average premiership player physically. Is about 5'10, while he has the stamina of Gerrard, the rest of his physical attributes don't even compare.

This stops him playing with the same intensity as Gerrard, this stops him being able to get into the same positions, being able to get around the pitch.

Like I've said a million times, if people actually stop thinking they know it all, watch the two players objectively and not through rose tinted specticles and ignoring the other players around them. They will see exactly what I'm talking about, they'll see both Barton and Gerrard for what they are.

Had it not been for Gerrard's extreme growth (a rare case), we'd be looking at two very very evenly matched players and possibly even Joey Barton being the better of the two.

[Stu.Murph]

Just in case anyone's interested in getting back to footy chat instead of debating the finer points of opinion vs. fact, I offer my comments from the "Do the Right Thing" thread--a nice little football discussion that got lost in the shuffle...

He was always an excellent defender who never got the credit he deserved. He now wrongly gets overated by Liverpool fans due to his ability to play in our system and us get the best out of him. He's in truth got no more ability than Frank Lampard as a footballer. His heart, passion and style of play make him into what he is for this club. For you to sit there and call Carragher "one of the best in the world" is absoloutely laughable and again smacks of rose tinted specticles. There is a MASSIVE difference in being a club player and a world class footballer with an international level
of ability. Jamie doesn't have the pace, strength, arial dominance and technical ability to even come close to being considered a world class player.

Stu, I've highlighted what I think are the key phrases in your argument (an argument, BTW, that you've made before...especially during the World Cup this summer).  What you've set out here is precisely why you fall on the opposite side of the "fence" to so many on here.  In your view, players like Agger, Sissoko and Kuyt will never be "world class" and I'm inclined to agree with you in the sense that, after their careers have ended and people run the rule over their contributions to football, they will not likely be mentioned in the same breath as true world class players like Zidane or Maradona or Beckenbauer.  You also make the same claim for Carragher, which some people would find hard to swallow.  Nonetheless, I'll agree with you again that Carragher will never be considered "world class" by the footballing world when all is said and done in terms of his career.

Nonetheless, you argue that he's a great club player that suits our system perfectly and that's why he's a Liverpool legend (you've said as much in recent weeks).  So, isn't that really what most Liverpool fans are looking for and care about at the end of the day?  We want players who will suit a winning system.  Whether they are "world class" or not is more or less irrelevant.  Whether they would "walk into" United's side or Chelsea's side is also more or less irrelevant because they don't play our system.  As long as our system is sound--and I still think Rafa's getting that right--then we need the players that can slot into it well and help it work.  So, Agger might not be the next Rio Ferdinand but if he fits our system who cares?  Same goes for Sissoko or Kuyt or Crouch.

I think you place far too much emphasis on this "world class" stuff.  Shevchenko and Ballack are arguably "world class" or at least "international class" but they haven't made Chelsea a better team and have arguably weakened them by upsetting the apple cart.  For me, it's not a matter of simply going out and getting world class/international class players in every position and expecting them all to cohere into a title-winning side.  The players must suit the system--something you clearly acknowledge otherwise you'd be saying Carragher's not good enough either, right? 

Bob, the fact of the matter is mate, you can only have so many of these players in your side if you want to be a success. You can't have a team full of "job doers". You need versitility, quality and the ability to adapt to different stituations within the match at all times.

Carragher is what he is, he's limited. Its as simple as that. You can't have a team of limited players otherwise you ain't gonna win all. Balance is important and Carragher gives us that, but we still need quality in there with him.

You absoloute 100% must have both. Look at Carragher for England. He's like a fish out of water. Look at Ferdinand, he's nearly always one of Englands best performers in tournements and regardless of what the clueless people on here say is the main reason Uniteds defence is what it is.

Carragher is very good at what he does and he plays in a position where you can get away with that. Just as Pennant does, but neither of them are what you would call class footballers. Agger although being a good player isn't any better than Carragher and it shows and out of the two, I know who's style I prefere and which one bring the most to the team.

The fact is you need quality in there. Quality and balance = success. Its as simple as that. Liverpool this season have had a distinct lack of both at times.