Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:40 pm

There ARE 'thousands' of quality players just playing Saturday (better quality) and Sunday football, that could make the grade, but for one reason or another, have not been seen/scouted etc;
It often boils down to who you know in football too!

So true...

I have thousands of examples in this too.

Xabi Alonso: Son of a classic, world class. Ok

Mikel Alonso: Son of a Classic, brother of a class, erm, crappy player. Thousands of players like him will never make it to the Real Sociedad first team. He has.

Amuchastegi: Could had been a Gerrard, but he didn't want to cut his hair in Real Sociedad youth systems and was put aside the team. Never took football seriously in Salamanca, and quited football. He ended up being tought maths in particular classes by me, instead of in ANoeta. Coach to blame: Carmelo Amas.

Good post LiverpoolAnytime, liked it.

Sabre

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:50 pm

It's a really good post Anytime. It's nice to see you've played at a good level, I think it always increases your knowledge if you've lived it and I largely agree with most of your points. The only one I would disagree with is the "thousands of people playing saturday football that could make the grade" line. I guess it depends on what you mean by making the grade but if you mean playing full-time professional football at really any sort of level then I'd have to disagree.
I was good as a kid myself but just that yard, that moment of anticipation, that instant control, that extra second to see the pass away from being good enough. You will know though mate that that 5% might aswell be 2000% in the whole scheme of things. It really is what seperates the men from the boys and though I've played with and against released apprentices from various clubs at a decent level while in London, even they are a distance away from making it. You have to be absolutely fecking brilliant to even get a sniff at the top. You know the drill, stick Djimi Traore in a Sunday team and he truly would look like Pele reborn, he really really would.
Other than that I think you make some good points here and in other posts too and I find your Joe Cole story fascinating.

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:12 pm

stick Djimi Traore in a Sunday team and he truly would look like Pele reborn, he really really would

Disagree.

He'd be the best player on the pitch but theres no way he'd have the effect of a real premiership player. You're talking about a lad who is a division 2 standard player. Theres three lads i lpay with regularly who are EASILY good enough to play division 2 standard yet don't even play on a saturday anymore.

Ones a striker, fast, great shot and superb control, the others a centre mid, superb skill, a good touch and a clever brain and the other is a centre half who basically has it all.

Greg (the Centre back) is easily the best player i've seen, in person, i've trained with stockport, wigan, wrexham and tranmere, i've played for stockport reserves, buscough and whitton albion. He was better than all these players by a country mile.

I remember when i was 14, i played against his team in a cup semi final. We went 4-0 up, he played in goal in the first half. In the second they moved someone else in there, then played him at centre back, we lost 6-4 after extra time, he scored a twice and set two goals up aswell as stopping our team 30 yards or so away from his goal every time.

There are three lads in my sunday league side who are good enough to play at a much higher level, Andy Burke, Ste Murphy and Andy Kent.

Global Heat, Formers League UK

by **76-1115222408** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:14 pm

Bigmick when i say thousands, I do mean that. But to make myself a bit clearer, when I say this, I take into account how many footballers I DONT SEE. I am not saying all that play are that good, it could be just one or two from a division with up to 15 teams in it (roughly meaning 2 out of apprx 300 players!) which isnt a high percentage really. But then when you think across the WHOLE country, probably could run into the thousands, not tens of thousands, but you get my drift.

Nonetheless, there are many out there the dont make it, no matter how many it is, and like you say there are also the apprentices that I didnt even really take into account (which in a way just shows how easily they an fall into the abyss of not makng it, as I didnt even think about them!).

Also just thought of Ian Wright who was playing semi pro until about 24 or something, some correct me on that though, and look he was one of the best strikers the PL has seen, and he was an everyday plumber or painter who could score goals. It is a very thin line to get in to football, as I m sure there are many that will testify to this.

As for playing at a 'good level', I got as far as playing for Fulham under 17's and not too far from the reserves, but sadly lets just say 'other things' :;):

took over, and from 17-19, played no footy at all!!

Oh well, thats life!! Have been asked to go for trials at Hillingdon Borough (Semi-pro), but I just dont hve the fitness, i smoke too much :laugh:

. Well I'll see..............

by **greenred** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:30 pm

Before we get caught up in the whole "local lads for the local team" debate,maybe we should remember a couple of important dates in the clubs history.September 3rd 1892, all eleven players of the Liverpool team that played its first-ever competitive match, against Higher Walton, were Scottish.

More recently,10th May 1986, Liverpool fielded a non-English XI for the FA Cup final against Everton: Grobbelaar, Lawrenson,Hansen, Beglin, Nicol, Whelan, Dalglish, Johnston, Rush, Molby and MacDonald won Liverpool`s only Double.The majority of the most successful players in Liverpools history have been non-english.Im saddened some people forget so quickly.

by **JC_81** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:54 pm

Have to agree with you boys that there are loads of guys that have the talent but don't make the grade. And yes, a lot of that is down to luck, but not entirely.

Guys like Dado Prso and Ian Wright didn't turn pro until they were in their 20s and neither hit the big time proper until they were over 25. These are the type of guys who were unlucky not to make it earlier but stuck at it. Phil Babb is another one, he got spotted playing for a student team I think. These are exceptions.

But the reason that a lot of guys don't make it is not because they don't have the talent, it's because they don't have the application or guidance. The best players I played with at an early age, say 10-14 yr olds, ended up getting in with the wrong crowd and jacking in football to get :censored:

with their mates when they hit about 16/17. The boys side I played for in Belfast had a couple of these guys sent over for spells at Crystal Palace and they had real talent but spiralled out of control when they hit a certain age.

The guys I played football with around 17/18 (and some of these guys are professional now) didn't have half the talent of the guys I just mentioned, but they were the ones who stuck at it and wanted it more. I suspect the guys I mentioned before are probably still playing saturday or sunday league now and look great and people are saying 'you should have made it', but the fact is they never had the mentality to make it as pros. It's not all about luck or talent, you have to want it.

I still play Saturday league now (making it my last season because my knees are starting to go), and some of the guys I play against clearly have the talent to make it, but to say that they just haven't been spotted is rubbish in my opinion. Most likely they've had their chance and not taken it. Scouting networks are so extensive now that those who have the desire to make it will have been picked up. I doubt there are very many potential stars that have slipped through the net.

by **JC_81** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:08 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
stick Djimi Traore in a Sunday team and he truly would look like Pele reborn, he really really would

Disagree.

He'd be the best player on the pitch but theres no way he'd have the effect of a real premiership player. You're talking about a lad who is a division 2 standard player. Theres three lads i lpay with regularly who are EASILY good enough to play division 2 standard yet don't even play on a saturday anymore.

Think you underestimate how good Traore would look Stu. I've had first hand experience of this sort of thing a couple of years back.

A few years ago my team played a few seasons in a dodgy Sunday league and registration of players etc was pretty slack. All the teams brought in ringers. We got to the cup final that year and we drafted in a ringer for it. This guy was contracted to a professional team but wasn't getting a game at the time. He said he'd play for us just for a game to keep himself sharp. Now I won't name the guy as he was technically in breach of contract and could get in trouble for it, and a lot of people will have heard of him after his goalscoring exploits last season (although he was an unknown back then). The guy was better than everyone else on the pitch by an absolute mile. He's a striker but played centre mid for us and won every single ball. His positional sense, fitness, pace and speed of thought was superb. He won the cup for us almost single-handedly.

Anyway, that's how good that guy looked compared to us and he doesn't even play in the premiership. I suspect Traore would look bloody marvellous at that level as well.

by **115-1073096938** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:05 pm

John don't get me wrong wrong mate i totally understand what you are saying. Believe me, i've seen it myself hundreds of times. Of course these lads are exceptional, but for me Traore is a division 2 standard player, AT BEST. The difference in a premiership player and a division two player is similar to the difference in a div 2 player and a semi pro. The gap from a good sunday league/saturday league player to a semi pro, isn't much.

The way i see it is simple. I play for one of the best sides in my league... the standard is ok. Its not great, but its ok, we played my mates team from skem in the cup the other day and lost 3-1. They had 2 lads who currently play for a team in Burscough's league, again, i won't mention names as i dont want the lads to get fined, they also had three other lads who have played at a semi pro level, we lost 3-1, we lost the last goal pushing for the equaliser.

Take a look...

by **masterraj** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:15 pm

Foreign or local you can have all the skill and talent in the world but if you dont have heart and passion you havent got anything. 11 players who get on and put there all into a game will beat 11 players who are maybe better players but dont have a passion for their club. So to me I dont care if we had 11 players from timbucktoo as long as they wear the shirt with pride and give 100%.

by **NiftyNeil** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:23 pm

I like to see a good crop of english players playing for us, and I think we've got that at the moment. The fact that we only had one start last night was only down to circumstance. It's not as though we're like Arsenal, who don't have a single English starter at the moment (and two at best).

by **JC_81** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:41 pm

stu_the_red wrote:John don't get me wrong wrong mate i totally understand what you are saying. Believe me, i've seen it myself hundreds of times. Of course these lads are exceptional, but for me Traore is a division 2 standard player, AT BEST. The difference in a premiership player and a division two player is similar to the difference in a div 2 player and a semi pro. The gap from a good sunday league/saturday league player to a semi pro, isn't much.

The way i see it is simple. I play for one of the best sides in my league... the standard is ok. Its not great, but its ok, we played my mates team from skem in the cup the other day and lost 3-1. They had 2 lads who currently play for a team in Burscough's league, again, i won't mention names as i dont want the lads to get fined, they also had three other lads who have played at a semi pro level, we lost 3-1, we lost the last goal pushing for the equaliser.

<a href="www.formersleague.co.uk" target="_blank">Take a look... </a>

Aye I hear ya Stu, maybe Traore was a bad example, seeing as the 2 of us are responsible for most of his criticism on this forum

But I agree that he's barely premiership standard anyway.

Your link doesn't seem to work by the way though mate

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:23 am

My league, Global Heat.

Traore has premiership pace, tackling ability and probably attitude. The rest, well. I'm sorry but his control, passing and other aiblities are extremely average to be as polite as possible.

Anyways, you aren't stupid, you know the score with him.

Try that link now, should work. Its :censored:

boss!

haha. Its wrong aswell, i have two refs man of the matches

by **tel** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:32 am

If you try to unearth young football talent, you cant just limit yourself to looking in your own backyard. 99% of Arsenal's success is down to bringing unproven foreigners like Henry and Viera to the club.

Some of you guys probably think marrying your cousins is socially acceptable.

by **JC_81** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:46 am

stu_the_red wrote:My league, Global Heat.

Traore has premiership pace, tackling ability and probably attitude. The rest, well. I'm sorry but his control, passing and other aiblities are extremely average to be as polite as possible.

Anyways, you aren't stupid, you know the score with him.

Try that link now, should work. Its boss! haha. Its wrong aswell, i have two refs man of the matches

Checked out that link, can't believe you have an unblemished disciplinary record

Seems a pretty well run league compared to mine I have to say

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:00 am

I'm going to make my final comment on this subject for a while here and now. I'm not talking about scouring the Liverpool and District Senior League, rejecting anybody with Irish parentage. I'm not talking about no longer signing players from overseas and the European Leagues. I'm not talking about signing British players, white players, black players or players for whom the English language is the first.
What I am talking about is looking within the British leagues (professional) first when we look to sign a player. If there isn't one available there at the right price, then go and buy somebody abroad.
Football follows fashion as sure as tailoring trousers does. The current fashion is for exotic sounding foreign players but the times are changing. At the Arsenal AGM the other day Wenger was grilled by fans as to why they no longer ever bought British based players, and to be fair he has been burned a couple of times when he has. The fans asked, quite rightly, where were Arsenal when Tottenham were buying Defoe, Robinson and Carrick for a combined total of 12.5 million quid.
I tell you this, there are no Joaquins in the Prem waiting to be discovered. Similarly, I think it's unlikely we'll find a Dirk Kujit lurking in Bolton reserves. Tell you what though, if we really looked I reckon we might find a Josemi or two. As for your Cheyrous and the like, go watch Stu's team. You'll find somebody who will contribute more for the club oplaying for Global Heat.

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