Liverpool FC Forum

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:47 am wrote:As I have already said I think it is 100% the system that failed us against Villa.
Gerrard was hung out to dry for me and judging by the post on here he is being made a scapegoat.
For me if we had played Lucas instead of Gerrard in that system we would have struggled just as much.
We got overran until he changed the system and got the extra body in midfield.

On whether Gerrard can play in the Pirlo role I dont know but I wouldnt write him off just yet.
He has played it twice and while we have conceded goals in these games I dont think you can lay the blame squarely at his feet.

We will see next game with Lucas out how he does with Allen and Henderson ahead of him.
The same two players that Lucas had in front of him when the midfield looked at its best away at Spurs in Gerrards absence.
If he struggles then, then the people doubting and criticising him will be within their right.
Until then I dont think it has been fair at all personally.

By the way that wont be Rodgers experimenting at a crucial time him playing him there. We dont really have a choice with Lucas being injured.

Excellent post supersub.

Encouraging debate at it's finest.

While it is clear you disagree it would be nice if you responded as to explain why etc.

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:47 am wrote:As I have already said I think it is 100% the system that failed us against Villa.
Gerrard was hung out to dry for me and judging by the post on here he is being made a scapegoat.
For me if we had played Lucas instead of Gerrard in that system we would have struggled just as much.
We got overran until he changed the system and got the extra body in midfield.

On whether Gerrard can play in the Pirlo role I dont know but I wouldnt write him off just yet.
He has played it twice and while we have conceded goals in these games I dont think you can lay the blame squarely at his feet.

We will see next game with Lucas out how he does with Allen and Henderson ahead of him.
The same two players that Lucas had in front of him when the midfield looked at its best away at Spurs in Gerrards absence.
If he struggles then, then the people doubting and criticising him will be within their right.
Until then I dont think it has been fair at all personally.

By the way that wont be Rodgers experimenting at a crucial time him playing him there. We dont really have a choice with Lucas being injured.

Bar one or two games I don't think the midfield has functioned when Gerrard has played, and that goes back to the start of the season.
The only time our midfield looked anything like a cohesive unit was when Gerrard was out injured.
He wasn't helped by the formation on Saturday but the week before he was very poor against Stoke, luckily we were bailed out by our strikers.
Lucas being out is a massive blow and will probably cost us a CL place, stoke and villa are ordinary sides but with Gerard in the pirlo role they gave us all sorts of trouble, wait till we play a decent side like Everton in 8 days time.

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:28 am wrote:Excellent post supersub.

Encouraging debate at it's finest.

While it is clear you disagree it would be nice if you responded as to explain why etc.

debate what a sorry sight a Liverpool Legend has become....you can't teach an old dog new tricks, especially as he wasn't the sharpest tool in the box to begin with....

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:42 pm wrote:

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:47 am wrote:As I have already said I think it is 100% the system that failed us against Villa.
Gerrard was hung out to dry for me and judging by the post on here he is being made a scapegoat.
For me if we had played Lucas instead of Gerrard in that system we would have struggled just as much.
We got overran until he changed the system and got the extra body in midfield.

On whether Gerrard can play in the Pirlo role I dont know but I wouldnt write him off just yet.
He has played it twice and while we have conceded goals in these games I dont think you can lay the blame squarely at his feet.

We will see next game with Lucas out how he does with Allen and Henderson ahead of him.
The same two players that Lucas had in front of him when the midfield looked at its best away at Spurs in Gerrards absence.
If he struggles then, then the people doubting and criticising him will be within their right.
Until then I dont think it has been fair at all personally.

By the way that wont be Rodgers experimenting at a crucial time him playing him there. We dont really have a choice with Lucas being injured.

Bar one or two games I don't think the midfield has functioned when Gerrard has played, and that goes back to the start of the season.
The only time our midfield looked anything like a cohesive unit was when Gerrard was out injured.
He wasn't helped by the formation on Saturday but the week before he was very poor against Stoke, luckily we were bailed out by our strikers.
Lucas being out is a massive blow and will probably cost us a CL place, stoke and villa are ordinary sides but with Gerard in the pirlo role they gave us all sorts of trouble, wait till we play a decent side like Everton in 8 days time.

Rubbish.

Gerrard wasn't "very poor" against Stoke by any stretch of the imagination and I think its laughable you're using that as an example. He was sloppy at times, but won plenty of tackles in the match (something Lucas gets bummed for) and found player in dangerous positions, he contributed very much to the attacking play with some of his own passing and movement.

It wasn't a great performance, but to describe it "very poor" to suit your own agenda is quite simply wrong.

Again the other day, people are questioning his performance, yet completely fail to acknowledge his massive improvement in the second half.

People are making out like Henderson and Lucas are actually better options, which again is quite simply laughable. Lucas doesn't do anything. The most positive thing you can say about him is his passing is usually steady and he finds a red shirt... Personally, I'd expect a little bit more from a midfielder than someone who simply passes the buck every chance they get.

Henderson's form has since returned to normal after a few games where he looked to have improved his level and unfortunately Allen has been injury prone and unable to establish himself.

A midfield of Allen, Henderson and Gerrard would be our strongest at present.

passing to a red shirt is a better option than passing to the opposition or hitting touch with a speculative 60 yard punt.... you clearly didn't go to Stoke or Anfield on Saturday and watch Gerrards performances with a bucket on your head......have to admit the bucket idea is a good one because it was excruciating to watch such an icon look totally out of his depth

Gerrard improved the second half mainly because no one could play much worse.
He even said himself he had a shocker Saturday.
When Gerrard plays in midfield we just look disjointed, we don't keep the ball, we don't put pressure on the opposition (never mind high up the pitch we don't press them anywhere) we end up retreating to the edge of our own area and when we do clear it there's no one in midfield to contest for the second ball.
When gerrard plays our forwards end up doing the midfielders jobs, they end up doing all the chasing and harrying in midfield whilst our midfielders stand next to our center halves at the edge of our box, once or twice Suarez and Sturridge have even ended up in the fullback positions chasing after the ball.
This is against stoke and villa!
When he's there it doesn't matter who we are playing we just can't generate any pressure on the ball whatsoever.
For contrast you only have to look at the performances against spurs and city, yes we lost the city game but we put them under a lot pressure and won the ball back high up the pitch on numerous occassions.
By the time gerrard gets to grips with this pirlo role Rodgers is obsessed by we will be well out of contention for 4th.
Trying to shoehorn a 33 year old into the side is going to cost us not only a CL place but Luis Suarez as well.

supersub » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:19 pm wrote:passing to a red shirt is a better option than passing to the opposition or hitting touch with a speculative 60 yard punt.... you clearly didn't go to Stoke or Anfield on Saturday and watch Gerrards performances with a bucket on your head......have to admit the bucket idea is a good one because it was excruciating to watch such an icon look totally out of his depth

Suppose it was an aimless punt that put Luis through for the penalty decision too?

You keep dismissing long range passes as nothing or "giving it away" when a lot of times, even if they don't find their target they win us throw ins deep in the opposition half.

Funny how you're also now calling him a "legend and Icon" yet you've always thought the lad was nothing more than an overrated prima donna!

Fact is, he still makes things happen, Lucas doesn't, never has and never will, because he's completely incapable.

Stu the Red » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:11 pm wrote:

supersub » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:19 pm wrote:passing to a red shirt is a better option than passing to the opposition or hitting touch with a speculative 60 yard punt.... you clearly didn't go to Stoke or Anfield on Saturday and watch Gerrards performances with a bucket on your head......have to admit the bucket idea is a good one because it was excruciating to watch such an icon look totally out of his depth

Suppose it was an aimless punt that put Luis through for the penalty decision too?

You keep dismissing long range passes as nothing or "giving it away" when a lot of times, even if they don't find their target they win us throw ins deep in the opposition half.

Funny how you're also now calling him a "legend and Icon" yet you've always thought the lad was nothing more than an overrated prima donna!

Fact is, he still makes things happen, Lucas doesn't, never has and never will, because he's completely incapable.

never denied he was a legend /icon etc;  just not blinkered and star struck like you when SG enters the room...he has been past his best before date for a good few years now...just taken a lot longer for some of the non attendees to come to terms with it.....

Lucas (post his injury) wasn't perfect in that holding role (he lacks a bit of athleticism IMO) but at least he knows how to play the position. He knew instinctively when to drop off or when to join the likes of hendo, allen and sterling in aggressively pressing the ball.
Gerrard doesn't seem to know where he should be or what he should be doing.

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:47 am wrote:As I have already said I think it is 100% the system that failed us against Villa.
Gerrard was hung out to dry for me and judging by the post on here he is being made a scapegoat.
For me if we had played Lucas instead of Gerrard in that system we would have struggled just as much.
We got overran until he changed the system and got the extra body in midfield.

On whether Gerrard can play in the Pirlo role I dont know but I wouldnt write him off just yet.
He has played it twice and while we have conceded goals in these games I dont think you can lay the blame squarely at his feet.

We will see next game with Lucas out how he does with Allen and Henderson ahead of him.
The same two players that Lucas had in front of him when the midfield looked at its best away at Spurs in Gerrards absence.
If he struggles then, then the people doubting and criticising him will be within their right.
Until then I dont think it has been fair at all personally.

By the way that wont be Rodgers experimenting at a crucial time him playing him there. We dont really have a choice with Lucas being injured.

Excellent post.

Funny how Gerrard is the scapegoat given the system deployed. Rodgers f.ucked up and it's no way to gauge Gerrard on. I mean, even superman couldn't have held that midfield together on his own - yet many appear to think Gerrard should.   

Ben Patrick » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:47 am wrote:As I have already said I think it is 100% the system that failed us against Villa.
Gerrard was hung out to dry for me and judging by the post on here he is being made a scapegoat.
For me if we had played Lucas instead of Gerrard in that system we would have struggled just as much.
We got overran until he changed the system and got the extra body in midfield.

On whether Gerrard can play in the Pirlo role I dont know but I wouldnt write him off just yet.
He has played it twice and while we have conceded goals in these games I dont think you can lay the blame squarely at his feet.

We will see next game with Lucas out how he does with Allen and Henderson ahead of him.
The same two players that Lucas had in front of him when the midfield looked at its best away at Spurs in Gerrards absence.
If he struggles then, then the people doubting and criticising him will be within their right.
Until then I dont think it has been fair at all personally.

By the way that wont be Rodgers experimenting at a crucial time him playing him there. We dont really have a choice with Lucas being injured.

Good post Ben, and a good post from Conn too regarding the extra man, which helped immensely in the 2nd half.

Been reading a lot about how ''Lucas'' changed the game when in fact having that EXTRA man in midfield helped us better to control the game in the 2nd half. Even when he went off, Allen also kept our shape in the middle so it wasn't a complete disaster.

If it was one game Kenny I could see where you are coming from, but we have been discussing the frailties of our midfield practically all season, those discussions only stopped when gerrard got injured and Rodgers had to play Allen.
Now gerrard is back and lo and behold so are the frailties and discussions.
Gerard has been waining as a force for 18 months, teams were over running us last year until Rodgers put hendo in to try and put a sticking plaster over gerrards lack of athleticism.
If Rodgers would have started the villa game with Lucas, hendo and Allen in the middle I believe we'd be 2 points better off now.
This isn't a knee jerk reaction because of one result nor is questioning gerrards role in the starting XI a new phenomenon.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:46 pm wrote:If it was one game Kenny I could see where you are coming from, but we have been discussing the frailties of our midfield practically all season, those discussions only stopped when gerrard got injured and Rodgers had to play Allen.
Now gerrard is back and lo and behold so are the frailties and discussions.
Gerard has been waining as a force for 18 months, teams were over running us last year until Rodgers put hendo in to try and put a sticking plaster over gerrards lack of athleticism.
If Rodgers would have started the villa game with Lucas, hendo and Allen in the middle I believe we'd be 2 points better off now.
This isn't a knee jerk reaction because of one result nor is questioning gerrards role in the starting XI a new phenomenon.

Gerrard looked good when he had Allen beside him too, there were a couple of games they played together before Gerrard's injury and we won all those games.

metalhead » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:48 pm wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:46 pm wrote:If it was one game Kenny I could see where you are coming from, but we have been discussing the frailties of our midfield practically all season, those discussions only stopped when gerrard got injured and Rodgers had to play Allen.
Now gerrard is back and lo and behold so are the frailties and discussions.
Gerard has been waining as a force for 18 months, teams were over running us last year until Rodgers put hendo in to try and put a sticking plaster over gerrards lack of athleticism.
If Rodgers would have started the villa game with Lucas, hendo and Allen in the middle I believe we'd be 2 points better off now.
This isn't a knee jerk reaction because of one result nor is questioning gerrards role in the starting XI a new phenomenon.

Gerrard looked good when he had Allen beside him too, there were a couple of games they played together before Gerrard's injury and we won all those games.

People wont have it mate.
It has to be Gerrard the root to all of our problems.

Put Allen and Henderson in front of him and see how he does. If he fails miserably then fair enough. But to crucify him like alot are on here after the villa shambles isnt fair or accurate.
With the injury to Lucas the one thing that is certain is we will know one way or the other soon enough.