Liverpool FC Forum

stmichael » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:12 pm wrote:The funny thing is, I know a lot of people who wanted AVB over Rodgers when they were both appointed to their respective jobs.

He's got us scoring for fun and playing some great stuff. He's turned players like Henderson around when it looked as if he may leave and he's even giving some of the youngsters a chance. Coutinho, Sturridge, Mignolet and Sakho have been great signings. Allen looks to be coming back to form.

We need a couple of players in January and then we can really push on.

I'll hold my hands up and admit I wanted AVB here. He's a good coach and still is, but was f**ked by Spuds director of football with some poor signings.

That's not to say I don't rate BR, I think he's the mustard and will take us to the CL and beyond 

I wanted Martinez ! However, I never whinged when we got Rodgers either.

This was the way to go. A younger manager who can relate to people of my age.

Rodgers changed the "This is Anfield" sign to the original, he brought back the red nets for the goals, he has instilled the lore of old to the current team. And it is paying dividends. All he has done, is he has installed into each players mind what it means to play for Liverpool. Give 100% and you cant go far wrong.

Yup... And if we lose the next three games, what will happen to the glowing praises?

maguskwt » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:28 am wrote:Yup... And if we lose the next three games, what will happen to the glowing praises?

We wont lose, we will be robbed at city maybe, refs keeping it at home, but we wont lose.

to be fair losing to City in the current form they're in is no embarrassment as long as it's by 1 goal, if we end up letting in 6 I'll be narked! But, better scenario is beating city.

I love the way he switches  a question around back to Liverpool. When asked about spurs been under par he simply answered "It's not so much about Spurs been under par...  more like how good Liverpool were" - quality answer. He loves this club, it's in his heart.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:19 pm wrote:yeah we are now starting to look better than the sum of our individual parts which is the point when you start to turn into a team instead of a collection of talented individuals.
in the late 70`s and early 80`s the likes of cruyff, maradona, platini and zico all played for top european clubs like barca and juventus but we got to 5 european cup finals in 7/8 years because we were the best team, those clubs were made up of 11 individuals and their individual brilliance (as good as it was) was no match for our team synergy.
hendo, allen and lucas may not be the most stellar midfield of all time name-wise but if their individual games compliment each other and they work as a unit they can move mountains together, which is what they did yesterday.

You have got to be joking?



Imagine those three against Barcelona or Munich

We'd get absolutely mauled.

The teams of the seventies and eighties had great players, they may not have had Messi's and Ronaldo types, but they were full of players the next level or two down, you can't win trophies consistently and league titles especially with average players all through out your team.

Stu the Red » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:24 am wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:19 pm wrote:yeah we are now starting to look better than the sum of our individual parts which is the point when you start to turn into a team instead of a collection of talented individuals.
in the late 70`s and early 80`s the likes of cruyff, maradona, platini and zico all played for top european clubs like barca and juventus but we got to 5 european cup finals in 7/8 years because we were the best team, those clubs were made up of 11 individuals and their individual brilliance (as good as it was) was no match for our team synergy.
hendo, allen and lucas may not be the most stellar midfield of all time name-wise but if their individual games compliment each other and they work as a unit they can move mountains together, which is what they did yesterday.

You have got to be joking?



Imagine those three against Barcelona or Munich

We'd get absolutely mauled.

The teams of the seventies and eighties had great players, they may not have had Messi's and Ronaldo types, but they were full of players the next level or two down, you can't win trophies consistently and league titles especially with average players all through out your team.

to be honest none of us know how good hendo and allen will become, both of them are only 23 years old, they are still 4 or 5 years off their mid to late 20`s prime and they have been improving on an almost weekly basis so i think they`ve done enough in recent weeks for everyone (me included) to cut them some slack.
hendo in particular on sunday played like a midfield general, now was that a flash in the pan performance or a promising young player starting to realise his potential? none of us has a crystal ball so we`ll just have to wait and see.
i`d still sign at least one top quality CM in january but sunday showed we do have some decent prospects on our books.

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:27 pm wrote:

Stu the Red » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:24 am wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:19 pm wrote:yeah we are now starting to look better than the sum of our individual parts which is the point when you start to turn into a team instead of a collection of talented individuals.
in the late 70`s and early 80`s the likes of cruyff, maradona, platini and zico all played for top european clubs like barca and juventus but we got to 5 european cup finals in 7/8 years because we were the best team, those clubs were made up of 11 individuals and their individual brilliance (as good as it was) was no match for our team synergy.
hendo, allen and lucas may not be the most stellar midfield of all time name-wise but if their individual games compliment each other and they work as a unit they can move mountains together, which is what they did yesterday.

You have got to be joking?



Imagine those three against Barcelona or Munich

We'd get absolutely mauled.

The teams of the seventies and eighties had great players, they may not have had Messi's and Ronaldo types, but they were full of players the next level or two down, you can't win trophies consistently and league titles especially with average players all through out your team.

to be honest none of us know how good hendo and allen will become, both of them are only 23 years old, they are still 4 or 5 years off their mid to late 20`s prime and they have been improving on an almost weekly basis so i think they`ve done enough in recent weeks for everyone (me included) to cut them some slack.
hendo in particular on sunday played like a midfield general, now was that a flash in the pan performance or a promising young player starting to realise his potential? none of us has a crystal ball so we`ll just have to wait and see.
i`d still sign at least one top quality CM in january but sunday showed we do have some decent prospects on our books.

How can you say "no-one knows how good they will become"? Its crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the game. You look at their attributes. Its as simple as that. The fact is, alot of people do "know" how good players will become because they understand how the game works in detail and understand what they are looking for.

They're also 23/24 years old, not 15. Technically and physically they are both as good as they'll ever get, they aren't going to develop any more game intelligence in terms of vision and tactically they aren't going to improve much if at all with the age they're at. They are not world beaters. On their day, they can do a job and throw in the odd performance. More often than not, they don't do alot.

Henderson has had probably 4 or 5 good games in two years, as I said earlier, I think people are getting a little bit carried away at the moment. Think its ridiculous to be honest some of the things being said after one good performance against a poor side.

It is commonly accepted a player is at his peak at 27/28. So your theory that a player is as good as he'll ever be in terms of technical ability, physicality or game intelligence is bollox. Something must be improving between then and 23. Gerrard was not as good at 23 as he was at 27/28 - that is an undeniable fact.

All players have potential and for some it is clear that they are extremely gifted and are better than their peers. But to suggest that any player who isn't setting the world alight at 23 will never do is just stupid. I don't understand why you consider yourself some authority on all things football? All of our opinions (including you), although interesting at times are irrelevant. That is why I err on the side of professional opinions who actually have some form of credibility.

How can you say "no-one knows how good they will become"? Its crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the game. You look at their attributes. Its as simple as that. The fact is, alot of people do "know" how good players will become because they understand how the game works in detail and understand what they are looking for.

They're also 23/24 years old, not 15. Technically and physically they are both as good as they'll ever get, they aren't going to develop any more game intelligence in terms of vision and tactically they aren't going to improve much if at all with the age they're at. They are not world beaters. On their day, they can do a job and throw in the odd performance. More often than not, they don't do alot.

Henderson has had probably 4 or 5 good games in two years, as I said earlier, I think people are getting a little bit carried away at the moment. Think its ridiculous to be honest some of the things being said after one good performance against a poor side.[/quote]

Yep.  Not a patch on the 'best Liverpool midfield Su has ever seen' - Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard out wide (for anyone who missed that gem a few days ago).

One day Stu will no doubt reminisce about how brilliant our young midfield of Allen/Hendersdon were in the 13/14 season.  He under rates current LFC players and massively over rates past LFC players (that he himself used to slate when they were current players). This much is obvious to anyone who's been around here long enough.

The grass is always greener for some people...

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting Rafa's 05/06 midfield was bad, I actually rated it too.  It's just ironic that Stu used to complain about it at the time, especially Sissoko and the fact Gerrard 'shouldn't be played on the right when he's a central midfielder'.  Now it's the best LFC midfield he's ever seen.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:46 pm wrote:It is commonly accepted a player is at his peak at 27/28. So your theory that a player is as good as he'll ever be in terms of technical ability, physicality or game intelligence is bollox. Something must be improving between then and 23. Gerrard was not as good at 23 as he was at 27/28 - that is an undeniable fact.

All players have potential and for some it is clear that they are extremely gifted and are better than their peers. But to suggest that any player who isn't setting the world alight at 23 will never do is just stupid. I don't understand why you consider yourself some authority on all things football? All of our opinions (including you), although interesting at times are irrelevant. That is why I err on the side of professional opinions who actually have some form of credibility.

Agreed. I don't believe that a player cannot improve or develop. That's a myth! Look at Piszczek, who was a striker because becoming a fullback and is doing a very good job at BVB.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:46 pm wrote:It is commonly accepted a player is at his peak at 27/28. So your theory that a player is as good as he'll ever be in terms of technical ability, physicality or game intelligence is bollox. Something must be improving between then and 23. Gerrard was not as good at 23 as he was at 27/28 - that is an undeniable fact.

All players have potential and for some it is clear that they are extremely gifted and are better than their peers. But to suggest that any player who isn't setting the world alight at 23 will never do is just stupid. I don't understand why you consider yourself some authority on all things football? All of our opinions (including you), although interesting at times are irrelevant. That is why I err on the side of professional opinions who actually have some form of credibility.

Really? You "err on the side of professional opinions"?

Who do you know personally who's opinions count? All of your opinions/knowledge/lack of are based on media bias, nothing more, nothing less. If the media praise a player, you think he's good, if they don't mention them, you're laughing them off as poor.

You actually compared Gerrard (of today) to Alonso of years ago, you say players like Sessegnon and plenty of others are poor because they don't play for "top sides". Quite frankly, most of the stuff you post is clueless happy clappy rubbish that means absoloutely f*ck all.

Again I will repeat to you, as its absolutely crystal clear that you don't understand what potential is in a player.

Players generally reach the maximum level technically when they're 16/17. A player who isn't good enough technically at that age WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH. At 16/17, the foundations are in place... as the player goes through his career, the only technical improvement as such they will make is a consistency to do sometime well. They won't effectively learn new and better technique.

At 18/19 tactically the player needs to understand the game, have natural movement and reading of the game aswell as decision making. They need to have composure in place. From the age 18/19, the improvements people in this area that players make are usually to do with a system and the ability to understand how to use their attributes and how to mask their weaknesses.

Physically players develop at different rates, some are ready at 16, others aren't ready till they're 21... such is life.

Mentally players don't fully develop till about 22/23.

You're arguement that all players peak at 27 is complete and utter rubbish. All players peak at different ages, there is no set age. 27 was plucked from the air years ago as its an age in the middle of a career when physical decline hasn't set in while experience is very high. Distin 35, Owen 20, Fowler 20, Barry 30, Gerrard 26 to name a few players as I really can't be bothered going over this proven arguement yet again.

Sissoko was heralded as the "new Vieira" on here by many. When he learns to pass. He never learnt, because at 23, he couldn't pass.

Baros was mooted as "world class" (by yourself it may have been, may be mistaken) and will be "better than Owen" when he learns to get his head up. And guess what? Despite us signing him at a young age, he never "got his head up".

Babel was "the new Henry" with strength... when he learns to be consistent and make good decisions and link up the play he'll be immense... again. He "never learnt" because he was passed that stage of his career (again being a young player).

And the best one of the lot, Steven Gerrard came through at 18... yet even now at 33 he's exactly the same player but without the physical aspect of his game which is starting to bring to light his glaring tactical deficiencies which you, amoung others used to give me absolutely loads for daring to suggest he had.

Oh, who can forget Traore, he only needed to learn "positioning" and "decision making" and he was the next Thuram.

The difference is, I can see it a mile off, you obviously can't. I don't really have a problem a with that, but when you constantly dismiss others who are more experienced and better qualified then really, it makes you look at bit daft.

You're arguement that you use earlier about airing on the side of professional's is something I do myself, the difference being I know a lot of them, from kids coaches, to players, managers, scouts, and first team coaches. I'd say I agree with 95% of the opinions most top managers and coaches have and voice. There are certain things that certain ones "say for effect" and their are certain things I don't agree with with them on. However, you can be sure if I don't agree with one top manager on an issue, their is another top manager or coach that will disagree with that manager too.

SouthCoastShankly » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:46 pm wrote:It is commonly accepted a player is at his peak at 27/28. So your theory that a player is as good as he'll ever be in terms of technical ability, physicality or game intelligence is bollox. Something must be improving between then and 23. Gerrard was not as good at 23 as he was at 27/28 - that is an undeniable fact.

All players have potential and for some it is clear that they are extremely gifted and are better than their peers. But to suggest that any player who isn't setting the world alight at 23 will never do is just stupid. I don't understand why you consider yourself some authority on all things football? All of our opinions (including you), although interesting at times are irrelevant. That is why I err on the side of professional opinions who actually have some form of credibility.

Really? You "err on the side of professional opinions"?

Who do you know personally who's opinions count? All of your opinions/knowledge/lack of are based on media bias, nothing more, nothing less. If the media praise a player, you think he's good, if they don't mention them, you're laughing them off as poor.

You actually compared Gerrard (of today) to Alonso of years ago, you say players like Sessegnon and plenty of others are poor because they don't play for "top sides". Quite frankly, most of the stuff you post is clueless happy clappy rubbish that means absoloutely f*ck all.

Again I will repeat to you, as its absolutely crystal clear that you don't understand what potential is in a player.

Players generally reach the maximum level technically when they're 16/17. A player who isn't good enough technically at that age WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE GOOD ENOUGH. At 16/17, the foundations are in place... as the player goes through his career, the only technical improvement as such they will make is a consistency to do sometime well. They won't effectively learn new and better technique.

At 18/19 tactically the player needs to understand the game, have natural movement and reading of the game aswell as decision making. They need to have composure in place. From the age 18/19, the improvements people in this area that players make are usually to do with a system and the ability to understand how to use their attributes and how to mask their weaknesses.

Physically players develop at different rates, some are ready at 16, others aren't ready till they're 21... such is life.

Mentally players don't fully develop till about 22/23.

You're arguement that all players peak at 27 is complete and utter rubbish. All players peak at different ages, there is no set age. 27 was plucked from the air years ago as its an age in the middle of a career when physical decline hasn't set in while experience is very high. Distin 35, Owen 20, Fowler 20, Barry 30, Gerrard 26 to name a few players as I really can't be bothered going over this proven arguement yet again.

Sissoko was heralded as the "new Vieira" on here by many. When he learns to pass. He never learnt, because at 23, he couldn't pass.

Baros was mooted as "world class" (by yourself it may have been, may be mistaken) and will be "better than Owen" when he learns to get his head up. And guess what? Despite us signing him at a young age, he never "got his head up".

Babel was "the new Henry" with strength... when he learns to be consistent and make good decisions and link up the play he'll be immense... again. He "never learnt" because he was passed that stage of his career (again being a young player).

And the best one of the lot, Steven Gerrard came through at 18... yet even now at 33 he's exactly the same player but without the physical aspect of his game which is starting to bring to light his glaring tactical deficiencies which you, amoung others used to give me absolutely loads for daring to suggest he had.

Oh, who can forget Traore, he only needed to learn "positioning" and "decision making" and he was the next Thuram.

The difference is, I can see it a mile off, you obviously can't. I don't really have a problem a with that, but when you constantly dismiss others who are more experienced and better qualified then really, it makes you look at bit daft.

You're arguement that you use earlier about airing on the side of professional's is something I do myself, the difference being I know a lot of them, from kids coaches, to players, managers, scouts, and first team coaches. I'd say I agree with 95% of the opinions most top managers and coaches have and voice. There are certain things that certain ones "say for effect" and their are certain things I don't agree with with them on. However, you can be sure if I don't agree with one top manager on an issue, their is another top manager or coach that will disagree with that manager too.

JC_81

Yep.  Not a patch on the 'best Liverpool midfield Su has ever seen' - Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard out wide (for anyone who missed that gem a few days ago).

One day Stu will no doubt reminisce about how brilliant our young midfield of Allen/Hendersdon were in the 13/14 season.  He under rates current LFC players and massively over rates past LFC players (that he himself used to slate when they were current players). This much is obvious to anyone who's been around here long enough.

The grass is always greener for some people...

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting Rafa's 05/06 midfield was bad, I actually rated it too.  It's just ironic that Stu used to complain about it at the time, especially Sissoko and the fact Gerrard 'shouldn't be played on the right when he's a central midfielder'.  Now it's the best LFC midfield he's ever seen.

he thinks a midfield containing sissoko and kewell is the best one he`s ever seen?  i think you`ve misunderstood him there mate!
even though it`s obviously a case of crossed wires (even stu`s not that nuts) that did make me laugh 

JC_81 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:48 pm wrote:How can you say "no-one knows how good they will become"? Its crystal clear to anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the game. You look at their attributes. Its as simple as that. The fact is, alot of people do "know" how good players will become because they understand how the game works in detail and understand what they are looking for.

They're also 23/24 years old, not 15. Technically and physically they are both as good as they'll ever get, they aren't going to develop any more game intelligence in terms of vision and tactically they aren't going to improve much if at all with the age they're at. They are not world beaters. On their day, they can do a job and throw in the odd performance. More often than not, they don't do alot.

Henderson has had probably 4 or 5 good games in two years, as I said earlier, I think people are getting a little bit carried away at the moment. Think its ridiculous to be honest some of the things being said after one good performance against a poor side.

Yep.  Not a patch on the 'best Liverpool midfield Su has ever seen' - Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard out wide (for anyone who missed that gem a few days ago).

One day Stu will no doubt reminisce about how brilliant our young midfield of Allen/Hendersdon were in the 13/14 season.  He under rates current LFC players and massively over rates past LFC players (that he himself used to slate when they were current players). This much is obvious to anyone who's been around here long enough.

The grass is always greener for some people...

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting Rafa's 05/06 midfield was bad, I actually rated it too.  It's just ironic that Stu used to complain about it at the time, especially Sissoko and the fact Gerrard 'shouldn't be played on the right when he's a central midfielder'.  Now it's the best LFC midfield he's ever seen.[/quote]



Alonso and Gerrard were outstanding players and Kewell on the left, when fit and playing well contributed immensely to that season with use of the ball, work rate and way he balanced the team. 82 points and one point behind second place I may add.

What I used to "complain" about was I believed we could do a lot better than Sissoko, who wasn't a bad player for us, just not a great one.

But I suppose that's really daft of me wanting one of our weakest links improving.