Liverpool FC Forum

It isn't about the Fulham game, or the Villa game or what happened at Stoke the other night. It's about the season as a whole and the facts are that at this stage of last season we had 34 points yet purely because of an end of season slump when two cup fianls were reached Kenny wasn't deemed to be given any longer to build for the future.

Kenny's signings on the whole were only slightly worse than all of Rafa's. If Brendan is to be in charge for the long term his next signings in January and next summer will have to make far of an impact than the players he brought in last summer. None of them including Sahin look top four quality to me.

zzzzz...
Slightly worse signings than Rafa?
I mean after that it is hard to take you seriously.
Kenny is and will always be a legend for to many reasons to count but his last stint was not one of his finest.
Whoever was responsible for the signings during those 18 months didn't put a foot right anywhere.
Rafa was here 6 years! and sure got some signings wrong, like Keane, Aqua, Dossena. But that was over 8 years and he made few expensive mistakes as he was mostly spot on with the expensive buys.
In those 18 months we shelled out as much money as Rafa had in his whole tenure, which will result in us losing around a 100 million when all is said and done.
Rodgers is a young decent manager who has come to a club and fans that more or less demands wine from water and as soon as the wine becomes a little sour the tar and feathers are brought forth.
Rafa being the perfect example of that. I said it then and I it still holds true. We would pay dearly for our shortsightness with Rafa and so we have... 

Penguins » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:45 pm wrote:zzzzz...
Slightly worse signings than Rafa?
I mean after that it is hard to take you seriously.
Kenny is and will always be a legend for to many reasons to count but his las stint was not one of his finest.
Whoever was responsible for the singings during those 18 months didn't put a foot right anywhere.
Rafa was here 6 years! and sure got some signings wrong, like Keane, Aqua, Dossena. But that was over 8 years and he made few expensive mistakes as he was mostly spot on with the expensive buys.
In those 18 months we shelled out as much money as Rafa had in his whole tenure, which will result in us losing around a 100 million when all is said and done.
Rodgers is a young decent manager who has come to a club and fans that more or less demands wine from water and as soon as the wine becomes a little sour the tar and feathers are brought forth.
Rafa being the perfect example of that. I said it then and I it still holds true. We would pay dearly for our shortsightness with Rafa and so we have... 

Kenny signed eight players in his second spell as manager. Four of them Doni, Coates, Suarez and Enrique were all good signings. So even if Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bad signings he still had a 50% success rate in terms of signings. I doubt whether Rafa's success rate was barely above 50%.

What's the bit you mean about 8 years? Rafa was in charge for 6 seasons. Kenny spent £114 million between January 2011 and August 2011. Rafa spent £246 million in six seasons so I'm not sure how Kenny spent as much money as Rafa did in his whole tenure. If you want to discuss net spend Kenny brought in £76 million as manager so his net spend was £38 million.

it wasnt fan power that got rid of rafa it was because he had no friends left in the top echeleons of the club.
over the years he had fallen out with practically everyone above him over one thing or another.
rafa was no yes man, he wouldnt think twice about arguing with his boss if he thought it was for the good of the club.
we certainly wouldnt have seen the farce that happened in the summer if rafa was in charge.
fair dues to rodgers though i was reading the echo today and he is the first liverpool manager that i can recall anyway thats mentioned the players wages when lambasting them over a poor performance.
he said most of the players here are on top dollar and it`s about time they started earning their money. he said capitulations like the one on wednesday arent acceptable and he`s made it clear to the players that they are playing for their liverpool futures.
i think it`s safe to say that rodgers is f##king well p1$$ed off with them.

friendlyguy33 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:39 pm wrote:

Penguins » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:45 pm wrote:zzzzz...
Slightly worse signings than Rafa?
I mean after that it is hard to take you seriously.
Kenny is and will always be a legend for to many reasons to count but his las stint was not one of his finest.
Whoever was responsible for the singings during those 18 months didn't put a foot right anywhere.
Rafa was here 6 years! and sure got some signings wrong, like Keane, Aqua, Dossena. But that was over 8 years and he made few expensive mistakes as he was mostly spot on with the expensive buys.
In those 18 months we shelled out as much money as Rafa had in his whole tenure, which will result in us losing around a 100 million when all is said and done.
Rodgers is a young decent manager who has come to a club and fans that more or less demands wine from water and as soon as the wine becomes a little sour the tar and feathers are brought forth.
Rafa being the perfect example of that. I said it then and I it still holds true. We would pay dearly for our shortsightness with Rafa and so we have... 

Kenny signed eight players in his second spell as manager. Four of them Doni, Coates, Suarez and Enrique were all good signings. So even if Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bad signings he still had a 50% success rate in terms of signings. I doubt whether Rafa's success rate was barely above 50%.

What's the bit you mean about 8 years? Rafa was in charge for 6 seasons. Kenny spent £114 million between January 2011 and August 2011. Rafa spent £246 million in six seasons so I'm not sure how Kenny spent as much money as Rafa did in his whole tenure. If you want to discuss net spend Kenny brought in £76 million as manager so his net spend was £38 million.

But the big difference is where it counts, the expensive signings. The 4 you mentions that were good buys cost around 25-30 million and the 4 disastrous signings cost 75-80 million!
Of course Rafa's success rate will be low if you count every free agent or a million or less buys. But Rafa got a return of over 100 million on Torres, Alsonso and Masch after spending 45 million. How much will we get back on Caroll, Adam, Henderson and Downing? 30 million at most.

Where did you get 8 years? I wrote 6...
Ok, so I exaggerated a little about th e spending but Rafa spent less than half each year of what was spent during Kenny's 2nd stint.

My point is that Rodgers is an ok managers who in the right enviroment would do fine. But I do wonder if a struggling LFc was the right fit as trying to play like Barca with a struggling team makes no sense.
The 1st thing Houliier and Rafa did when they came was to make the defense rock solid and work out from there. Rodgers isn't doing that. Which is problematic as his tactic is to dominate teams. And we don't have the players for that...

Then if we win v QPR he will come out with some BS statement about coming in the top 2!!! We will not finish in the top 8 why? Because that's where we belong at the moment better get used to it folks

maguskwt » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:37 am wrote:
I've said what I've said... if you care to read, you can find it... or you can continue with your self-indulgent teenage rant... it's really all up to you...

As for me I'm just flabbergasted how little support a young and promising liverpool manager with a vision who is trying to do his best to turnaround a stagnant football club gets these days. It was the same with Rafa who was wheeling and dealing within severe constraints but at least Rafa had like 3 seasons before the knives came out. Now it's 6 feckin months...

I think a lot of fans support Rodgers, why wouldn't we?

We are talking about his questionable transfers aren't we?

Nothing to do with supporting him, I think a solid majority of supporters want him to get it right in January. Errr, so our club does well.   

So I don't understand what you are all "flabbergasted" about? If I saw comment after comment asking for him to resign or to be sacked then your statement of "knives coming out" would be correct.

As I said NO ONE has posted that, so until then your rants are just alarmist bulls**t.

maguskwt » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:52 am wrote:This notion of BR going for british players is again another myth... Sahin, Assaidi, Yesil and Borini are all non-british. Sturridge is a young and promising striker who is alot better than Carroll and the need to reinforce in January and his availability has dictated the transfer. As for Ince, it seems like he's more of a long term investment.

So who exactly said that BR goes exclusively for british players?

I mentioned that the majority of his signings are too much in his comfort zone signing players he has been involved with in one way or another with his previous clubs. He need to grow some balls and start looking at players outside his small network.

As for the four players you mentioned they have hardly played any games. So I don't actually no what point you are trying to make.

Sturridge is young and promising but 12 million for a player with 6 months left on his contract? On a salary of 60 to 80k a week? You are joking aren't you. This is a f**king disaster.

When did one of our worst signings ever (Carroll) become the measuring stick for a successful transfer?

We should be comparing him to the other strikers that the other top sides have such Manure, City, Cheatski, Arsenal, etc. We are trying to aim for 4th eventually aren't we, not middle table mediocrity? 

eds » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:51 pm wrote:

maguskwt » Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:52 am wrote:This notion of BR going for british players is again another myth... Sahin, Assaidi, Yesil and Borini are all non-british. Sturridge is a young and promising striker who is alot better than Carroll and the need to reinforce in January and his availability has dictated the transfer. As for Ince, it seems like he's more of a long term investment.

So who exactly said that BR goes exclusively for british players?

I mentioned that the majority of his signings are too much in his comfort zone signing players he has been involved with in one way or another with his previous clubs. He need to grow some balls and start looking at players outside his small network.

As for the four players you mentioned they have hardly played any games. So I don't actually no what point you are trying to make.

Sturridge is young and promising but 12 million for a player with 6 months left on his contract? On a salary of 60 to 80k a week? You are joking aren't you. This is a f**king disaster.

When did one of our worst signings ever (Carroll) become the measuring stick for a successful transfer?

We should be comparing him to the other strikers that the other top sides have such Manure, City, Cheatski, Arsenal, etc. We are trying to aim for 4th eventually aren't we, not middle table mediocrity? 

Name ONE player who you would bring in who is available in January who you perceive is better than Sturridge, clearly suited to the premier league, and is available for around 12 million (more or less) AND who is also willing to come to us. Until then your talk is cheap... you think that with a snap of a finger, or rather with a press of some buttons abxy, you can buy any player from any league you want as if you're playing Fifa or Winning Eleven? And Sturridge has not even signed for us yet, much less played for us and we are already ruling him out?  ... Was Torres as prolific at Athleti as he was for us? Were there not calls for Sturridge to be part of the transfer that sent Torres to Chelski? Please grow some balls and go and support chelski or city if you want instant success. Instant noodles, instant pornography and instant orgasms seem to be fueling your brain.

"the majority of his signings are too much in his comfort zone signing players he has been involved with in one way or another with his previous clubs. He need to grow some balls and start looking at players outside his small network." Since when are Sahin, Assaidi and Yesil players he's been involved with? All these are to me quite brave efforts by BR. On the flip side is all these young talented foreign players often struggle to hit the ground running in the premier league and that is exactly what's happening here. For every Suarez, there are dozens of others who will fail to adapt to premier league. Heck even the likes of Shevchenko and Veron, who are experienced world class talents failed to adapt to the premier league. There is clearly a directive from the owners regarding the profile of players for transfers after the amount of fortune we have squandered under Kenny and Commoli and a reasonable fan understands that under such circumstances if BR would go for talents who he is familiar with. If anything, I lay the blame on the owners. The failure to increase the offer for Dempsey shows that BR has to work within the owner's constraints and could not simply buy the players he wish. So like I said, give him time and judge him after at least one more season.

Penguins » Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:03 pm wrote:

friendlyguy33 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:39 pm wrote:

Penguins » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:45 pm wrote:zzzzz...
Slightly worse signings than Rafa?
I mean after that it is hard to take you seriously.
Kenny is and will always be a legend for to many reasons to count but his las stint was not one of his finest.
Whoever was responsible for the singings during those 18 months didn't put a foot right anywhere.
Rafa was here 6 years! and sure got some signings wrong, like Keane, Aqua, Dossena. But that was over 8 years and he made few expensive mistakes as he was mostly spot on with the expensive buys.
In those 18 months we shelled out as much money as Rafa had in his whole tenure, which will result in us losing around a 100 million when all is said and done.
Rodgers is a young decent manager who has come to a club and fans that more or less demands wine from water and as soon as the wine becomes a little sour the tar and feathers are brought forth.
Rafa being the perfect example of that. I said it then and I it still holds true. We would pay dearly for our shortsightness with Rafa and so we have... 

Kenny signed eight players in his second spell as manager. Four of them Doni, Coates, Suarez and Enrique were all good signings. So even if Carroll, Henderson, Adam and Downing were bad signings he still had a 50% success rate in terms of signings. I doubt whether Rafa's success rate was barely above 50%.

What's the bit you mean about 8 years? Rafa was in charge for 6 seasons. Kenny spent £114 million between January 2011 and August 2011. Rafa spent £246 million in six seasons so I'm not sure how Kenny spent as much money as Rafa did in his whole tenure. If you want to discuss net spend Kenny brought in £76 million as manager so his net spend was £38 million.

But the big difference is where it counts, the expensive signings. The 4 you mentions that were good buys cost around 25-30 million and the 4 disastrous signings cost 75-80 million!
Of course Rafa's success rate will be low if you count every free agent or a million or less buys. But Rafa got a return of over 100 million on Torres, Alsonso and Masch after spending 45 million. How much will we get back on Caroll, Adam, Henderson and Downing? 30 million at most.

Where did you get 8 years? I wrote 6...
Ok, so I exaggerated a little about th e spending but Rafa spent less than half each year of what was spent during Kenny's 2nd stint.

My point is that Rodgers is an ok managers who in the right enviroment would do fine. But I do wonder if a struggling LFc was the right fit as trying to play like Barca with a struggling team makes no sense.
The 1st thing Houliier and Rafa did when they came was to make the defense rock solid and work out from there. Rodgers isn't doing that. Which is problematic as his tactic is to dominate teams. And we don't have the players for that...

Some valid points but I think Brendan over-stated the possession issue. I've looked at games from last season where we kept the ball and knocked it around a lot pretty well. The problem last year was breaking down the opposition and that hasn't been rectified under Brendan. I'm also not convinced that the system is 4-3-3 it's more like 4-5-1 as two of the front players are usually wingers.

If Sturridge does sign next week I'd prefer to see just Lucas and Gerrard in the midfield with the third midfielder dropped so that Sterling and Downing can start under whatever formation the manager wants to call it. I don't think we have the pace or the players to provide a service to Suarez and Sturridge without two wingers in the team. Allen and Lucas are too defensive to impact the attacking half in the same team.

wenger was under intense pressure few weeks ago and his team hit back with a few wins on the trot and trashing newcastle 7-3.
chelski trashed aston 8-0 and suddenly rafa declared that they are title contender.
how we reply to QPR today will show us a better pic on rogers and his squad.

We desperately need some consistency, this month has seen us have a record of W,L,W,L and that's not going to do much for progression up the league table. Today's match at QPR is a must win match as far as I'm concerned.

We all have our opinions on players, formation, syle of play etc. but whatever anyone thinks it's going to take longer than 6 months to transform a squad, especially with the financial constraints that we're now working with.

Gone are the days when you could put 11 decent players onto a pitch and expect them to make an impact, it's now all about systems and players fitting into a system and playing to a plan. Formations are not fixed 4-4-2, 4-3-3 etc, they change throughout the game depending on the phase of play. Good players who don't adapt and misread situations can look bad but average players who adapt well can look better than they really are. Because it's so fluid, we get caught out when we get it wrong and this is why we've been so inconsistent.

Last summer we replaced a lot of experienced players with a few younger signings and promoted a few youth players to reduce the wage bill. Our captain and vice captain are now reaching the wrong end of their playing careers and for whatever reason we failed to sign a couple of forwards which left us seriously short of attacking options.

Given the above, it's not really surprising that we've struggled a bit this season is it ? Brendan knows what sort of players he needs to play his system, it's not surprising that he's going for players he worked with in the past that he knows can do the job. It looks like FSG are about to back Brendan in January, the manager and players deserve our support and let's see how much the team improves in the second half of the season. It's no good reacting to the result of an individual match, we need to improve from the first half of the season and get higher than last season's 8th place.

It would also help if our managers were signing better players as well. I cannot believe the amount of money this club has spent on p*ss poor footballers since 1992, it's incredible when you go through our transfer archives and read just who we signed and how much we paid for them. None of Rodgers signings so far have been majorly impressive and the one who looks like a gem of a signing never features much to my bemusement.

We've signed Borini for £11m, who couldn't even cut it at Chelsea and couldn't really cut it at Roma either. It seems as though Roma couldn't wait to offload him once we came in for his services. Nuri Sahin is unfortunate to have come into a struggling club and as such has struggled himself. Joe Allen has struggled as well and looks like he isn't enjoying himself at the moment.

Now we're linked with Daniel Sturridge and Thomas Ince, more young players, I don't think we need anymore young players, I think we need some older, more experienced players, players who can really improve our first team and add much needed depth in the squad. Maybe Daniel Sturridge and Thomas Ince (if they sign) will prove me wrong and will become good players for us and improve us, but I'm not optimistic.

If there was a league table for a club who has thrown the most money down the toilet on poor or average footballers, this club would win that league every single season and that's a damning verdict of twenty odd years of complete and utter mis-management from top to bottom and I don't see that culture changing anytime soon.

Basil » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:48 am wrote:Brendan knows what sort of players he needs to play his system, it's not surprising that he's going for players he worked with in the past that he knows can do the job.

It looks like FSG are about to back Brendan in January, the manager and players deserve our support and let's see how much the team improves in the second half of the season.

Well that in itself is scary.

By all accounts some fans think we are a wreck of a football club thats needs ripping apart from top to bottom sell most of the first team and buy loads of players that fit into ONE mans system.

If that system does not work? We are left with a whole squad put together to play one way by one man. Not a really bad idea if that man has a record of doing a good job at that alas BR does not.

Im sorry but the manager and players have let us down at points this season. The villa game, WBA, Stoke ect i can handle losing if we show some kind of fight, those game mentioned showed a team that just couldnt be bothered.