Liverpool FC Forum

redtrader74 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:04 pm wrote:I don't necessarily think we need to spend £30m on a player to get into the top four, I accept you do to win the title, but just look at this year, bar city and the scum, you've got Arsenal, everton, Spurs, WBA, Chelsea sniffing round the other two spots. The EPL is, IMHO, poor, if you have a credible manger, who has some charisma and gravitas, someone who has really good scouting links them you can compete with our budget for the top four. I bet Sawnsea are glad we took BR, now they have Laudrup, someone fsg wouldn't want as he is not going to toe the line.

stmichael » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:35 pm wrote:People having a go at Rodgers after yesterday are entirely missing the point. This is a malaise that has been going on for ages now and it comes from the very top. Rodgers is being asked to do far too much for someone with his relative lack of experience and if we don't put it right we will continue to move from one crisis to another. We need to stop expecting miracles from our managers and start being realistic. To start with we expecting far more from those above them. The club at the moment has no identity or direction and that is a major problem. You put in structure so that the manager is a cog in the machine, not the machine itself. We have gone from the control of Benitez through the Hodgson 70's timewarp, had a brief flirtation with Kenny's end to end chaos theory and ended up Brendan's experiment in the space of two and a half years. We also have no football men at the football club which is worrying. It's no way to run things if you want success.

At the end of the day I just hope FSG were watching yesterday because if they were it must have reinforced to them just how far behind we are where we need to be if we want to be a force again. It was as bad a display as I've seen since the dark days of Hodgson. Yes Rodgers has to take some of the blame but he doesn't go out on the pitch and makes our players unable to shoot. He doesn't make Joe Allen fail to track his runners in midfield for the second goal. He doesn't make Joe Cole give the ball away in a ridiculous area for the third goal. The squad is still miles short in terms of quality and it seriously needs addressing in january.

stmichael » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:35 pm wrote:People having a go at Rodgers after yesterday are entirely missing the point. This is a malaise that has been going on for ages now and it comes from the very top. Rodgers is being asked to do far too much for someone with his relative lack of experience and if we don't put it right we will continue to move from one crisis to another. We need to stop expecting miracles from our managers and start being realistic. To start with we expecting far more from those above them. The club at the moment has no identity or direction and that is a major problem. You put in structure so that the manager is a cog in the machine, not the machine itself. We have gone from the control of Benitez through the Hodgson 70's timewarp, had a brief flirtation with Kenny's end to end chaos theory and ended up Brendan's experiment in the space of two and a half years. We also have no football men at the football club which is worrying. It's no way to run things if you want success.

At the end of the day I just hope FSG were watching yesterday because if they were it must have reinforced to them just how far behind we are where we need to be if we want to be a force again. It was as bad a display as I've seen since the dark days of Hodgson. Yes Rodgers has to take some of the blame but he doesn't go out on the pitch and makes our players unable to shoot. He doesn't make Joe Allen fail to track his runners in midfield for the second goal. He doesn't make Joe Cole give the ball away in a ridiculous area for the third goal. The squad is still miles short in terms of quality and it seriously needs addressing in january.

friendlyguy33 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:49 pm wrote:It seems to me that part of the problem lies in the manager's pass, pass, pass approach and lack of variation in tactics.

We've not finished in the top four for ages. Reality. We ***** up last summer, and now have to work our way up slowly from where we are. That's reality, that's what teams do. Pretending we have been Sh*t for years? We have been. 2009-2010 - 1 year. 2010-2011 - 2 years. 2011-2012 - 3 years. We are now in our 4th year. That's years mate.

What's happened in that time? Players have aged, players have left, Sh*t has come in, Sh*t has gone out, good players have come in, good players have gone out, youth has been promoted, youth has been sold, the owners have ***** off, the new owners have come in, we've had four different people manage the club - it's a ridiculous amount of time ago considering what's happened since 2009- and the turbulent nature of our club definitely isn't helping us to improve. And I'm not talking about you, but since FSG sacked Rafa and Kenny, the fans have tasted blood and are hungry for more, it's splattered all over this thread. I can sort of, even understand that - I can understand that after Kenny and Rafa went that they want other managers to have equally short periods of time- but that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face- it won't help us. It simply won't help us.

The criticism of Rodgers is beginning to become wildly hilarious now (in a 'I want to headbutt a wall till I pass out' hilarious), and I can only attribute it to frustration at how the team is going at the moment- which I can also forgive- it's a terrible time to be a supporter (in comparison to our history, we don't support Nottingham Forest, Leeds or Blackburn). But attacking him for acting out his duties in speaking to the press, attacking him for wearing a f*cking scarf, for daring to have a way that he would like us to play? Quoting sentences he has said to the press and taking three words from it and using it to have an attack? Analysing every little last thing he does after a loss to try and get in a few good pops? Nah I can't have that, it's pathetic in the extreme, I thought we were better than that- and I think it comes from how we reacted to Hodgson- but that man attacked the Kop for daring to fight to protect their club, that man had us sitting on the edge of our box in two banks of four, in front of the f*cking Kop as teams out passed us, out played us, and we showed absolutely nothing. Rodgers has done none of that and is not deserving of the abuse at his door at the moment. Aston Villa result bad, yes- improvement needed - but it's not a weekly occurrence.

I'm only 25 for f*ck sake, but I remember growing up with a culture of backing the team and the manager, and then at the end of the season, taking time to look over all the decisions made, and having the difficult discussions about the manager then- but allowing him the season to get on with his job without petty sniping or any of that *****. I've admitted that more recently I've ***** up on that in recent times in the opening post. I was wrong, it doesn't help anything, only help perpetuate a negative atmosphere around the club. So I've decided to stop being a bellend and get on with what I was taught to do- and allow the manager to do his job without needless criticism or pressure.

The hypocrisy is astounding from some people here. Brendan said after West Brom, that in improving the team and getting them used to how he wants us to play that we'd have more games like that (a 3-0 loss)- and he was pilloried for saying it- 'our expectations are greater than that, we're Liverpool', 'It's a Hodgson style comment' and 'how dare he profess that as Liverpool's future this season'.

Then, right, get this, when he dares to look up the table, dares to try and show some positivity after getting two back to back wins since 2011 (that's a whole year ago by the way)- he's castigated again. So he came out and made that comment about 2nd, so what? He said let's aim high essentially, he didn't say 'oh well if we beat Aston Villa tomorrow it'll be utopia' he tried to make the team believe that we are capable of dispatching these teams now and that's no bad thing and get some positivity around the club. Could we f*cking score, and have won, perhaps we'd even be discussing climbing the table again. He won't be the first, or the last manager to say something positive in a press conference and have the team lose- it happens even to Ferguson.

I think some of the attacks on Rodgers, aren't through looking realistically at our position, or how we can move forward, but a bitterness at how far we have fallen (not entirely his fault), a bitterness that Rafa and Kenny were let go, bitterness that Everton are doing better than us and a bitterness at watching Man United to continue to rumble on at the top of the league or thereabouts. Bitterness, and it stinks, we'll be laughing at Everton for it with no hint of irony.

Anyone would have thought that last summer was the only transfer window we'd ever get to improve the team. That no subsequent windows would be allowed. Unlike Kenny, who was allowed 5 top targets he could go out and purchase whatever the price, Rodgers wasn't allowed this. Period. No argument. We can argue that he had just two of his own proper signings despite more first team squad players leave than that.

His signings were clearly long term based as well, so we need to factor that into our analysis. Short term, should he have gone for players like Borini (21) and Allen (22) (as well as Yesil 18, Assaidi 23 and Sahin on loan at 23)- perhaps not, perhaps it was a mistake- but we'd tried cuppa soup points last season and that failed as well.

So whether he wanted to or not, he also had the promotion of Suso/Sterling who are also both 18 from the academy to replace seasoned veterans Maxi and Bellamy).  Also Wisdom has found himself breaking through into the team. To me it seems that there is pressure from above to start to slowly build the club up again with a collection of players who can grow into their roles.

I can see the criticism of the summer especially at FSG, but I don't think it's all Rodgers fault, not by a long stretch. I think there was an acceptance from the owners even from some of us, that perhaps spring boarding straight back into the top four would be difficult especially after the summer prior, so the year zero was put in place- everyone says this year zero always happens but it's the first time I think it has properly happened for me. Big earners were taken off the wage bill, youth was brought in through transfers and promoted up from the academy- we've saved money on wages etc - great. We have tied down Skrtel and Agger to new contracts - great.

But to judge Rodgers on one overhaul, one big window in the scheme of things is harsh in my book. He needs at least two others. Assuming FSG stay true to their word, we can now look to reinvest the saved wage bill on the right players - these players need to be quality who will slot straight into the first team or the bench, and compete directly with some of the players we have. It looks like Downing has been told he can leave, that will help us manoeuvre more as well. But we need to make sure he gets these players and pressure FSG if he doesn't.

18 months. Since when has that been too much to ask? He needs to be allowed to make some adjustments in January and see how we perform after that. Then to make some more adjustments in summer and see how we perform after that - until at least halfway into the season. For me, that's only fair- else we get rid of the end of the season, more £££££ on compo, then more money on getting players out the new manager might not fancy, that have just come in - nah it's a never ending cycle of ***** can we not see that now?

We are the epitome of midtable. We are 7 points from THIRD. We are 7 points from the relegation zone. We need consistency. But we are certainly not miles behind where we want to aim for- even after the setback yesterday. There is no denying that reinforcements will help us in January, when you look at the sort of players we play behind Suarez (Enrique, Sterling, Shelvey, Joe Cole) whether they are heroes, or just effective players who put the ball in the net.

It hurts right now. We've not been like this for a long time. But Kenny isn't here. Rafa isn't coming back. Capello wasn't appointed, and I don't think as proud Liverpool fans we'd even want another manager sacked during a season. Now criticism of his methods, fine, criticism of his line ups and his tactics, fine- all managers make decisions that not everyone agrees with- this happens in football. But talking about getting rid of him already, talking of potential replacements for next season, or constantly reminding people about how you have been proved right with Rodgers (well before the end of the season and even KNOWING he was ***** over with the Carroll/Dempsey) Sh*t is pathetic.

Best supporters in the world my *****. He's not walking on his own, but he's walking with a lot less of us than he should be.

Boxscarf » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:21 pm wrote:My problem with Rodgers tactics is that we are trying to play Barcelona's and Spain's A game with players nowhere near the calibre of players in both of those squads. We haven't got a Iniesta, a Messi, a Xavi, or players like Alonso, Ramos and Arbeloa.

Only one player in our squad could get into Barcelona or Spain's squad and that is Luis Suarez, the rest just don't have the ability to make the grade and for all our lovely passing, it's all pointless if we aren't taking our chances and if we aren't getting bodies in the box. Last season our major problem was scoring goals, this season it's same the problem and a new problem has arisen in our defence has been very weak this season.

If Brendan wants to play tiki-taka football he needs to have top quality players to make it work, because most of our players are unable to play such football, they just don't have the ability, the intelligence or the talent to make it work.

sgs » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:44 pm wrote:

Except that Swansea neither has iniesta or xavi!

Its a squad thats deficient, but its also a team whose tactical organization is sometimes less than elementary and we should be able to say that without some yahoo getting all defensive...

Johnny Boy » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:43 pm wrote:We definitely need to give Brendan time and the owners need to back him in the transfer window.

I don't get some of the things he does, not giving Assaidi a chance, playing Allen every game when clearly he isn't performing, having 3 defenders on the bench, not having at least a striker on the bench irrespective of the lack of experience, playing players out of position - Downing at left back (to be fair he was our best player yesterday), playing Shelvey left midfield and probably a few more.
But we still need to give him the time and financial backing he deserves.